Madeleine McCann

yourdeadwright

Accident happened, parents hid body

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Phoebas wrote: »

So far so good. What is the evidence of human decomposition?

There is no EVIDENCE of proof but I think everyone understands that,

Its adds to a case that can be put against the McCann's like loads of Evidence that is used in court cases,

If the Evidence is useless why would the MCanns try to discredit it or why where they aginst the dogs on the forst place ?

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

yourdeadwright wrote: »

No , I think its yourself who doesn't understand ,

The places the dogs alerted to (apartment, clothes,cuddle cat car) where tested to see if there was DNA left in these area's that they could match to someone ,

Cadaver dogs smells the scent, alerts , you test the area for DNA so you can say who was the dead person was in the area


There was DNA found on all alerted area's but not enough to match to a person ,

Really? Could you provide links for that claim please.


The only relevant thing that could be found in the apartment indicating Madeline had died there was either blood that was definitely Madeline's - that's Eddie's job - none found - or bodily fluids and tissues from the decomposition of Madelein's body - not conceivably possible in the time frame. Finding Madelines DNA in the apartment would be perfectly normal and expected, just as a thorough search of your place of abode should find your DNA in many places.

Phoebas

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

yourdeadwright wrote: »

There is no EVIDENCE of proof but I think everyone understands that,

Not you. In post #5384, in response to my question "What is the evidence?", you started on about DNA.

I'm glad it's all cleared up now.

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Creol1 wrote: »

You have not cited any Portuguese law to corroborate this.

The McCanns are not currently in a Portuguese jail.

Phoebas

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

chicorytip wrote: »

I watched that myself but my impression was different. They sniffed at each car in the line in turn rather than randomly and indicated at the silver Renault which was last in the line.

It's difficult to say for sure, because as was pointed out by someone earlier, the video can be one part of a much longer session, so we might not have the full picture, but you can see here that the dog has to be directed to a few of the cars, and particularity, on the Renault, he is directed back again and again and directed to very specific parts of the car.

On the face of it, the Renault was getting special attention, which is understandable, since that's the car under investigation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTF4JTLeOWA

yourdeadwright

Accident happened, parents hid body

Phoebas wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

There is no EVIDENCE of proof but I think everyone understands that,

Not you. In post #5384, in response to my question "What is the evidence?", you started on about DNA.

I'm glad it's all cleared up now.

You can use the same rebuttle to eye witness at a trail , you cant test that as evidence eIther can you ?

Its funny how u have it all workedd out that the dogs didn't matter but all the police experts and media waited on it to be the truning point of a conviction against the McCanns ,
To this day the media Involved said no DNA was the turning point
BUT according to you it didmt matyer anyway

Give over will ye

Phoebas

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

^^ Probably best just to stop digging now.

Creol1

Something Else

cnocbui wrote: »

The McCanns are not currently in a Portuguese jail.

Can you explain the relevance of this to my point please?

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

When did this guy Martin Smith become the most reliable witness in history of witnesses, as if the entire case rests on something he may or may not have seen?

He is last shred of semi credible evidence that the McCanns were involved. The Spotify Maddie podcast reckons there is two places Scotland yard could send the existing DNA evidence too to get a full result. You'd assume that's been long done?

I'm in full belief that they left her in the apt unlocked and paid the full price for the decision. Wrong thing to do in the wrong place. The cover up is just to hide their negligence no more.

yourdeadwright

Accident happened, parents hid body

Phoebas wrote: »

^^ Probably best just to stop digging now.

Didn't think ud have a reply.

yourdeadwright

Accident happened, parents hid body

OwlsZat wrote: »

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

When did this guy Martin Smith become the most reliable witness in history of witnesses, as if the entire case rests on something he may or may not have seen?

He is last shred of semi credible evidence that the McCanns were involved. The Spotify Maddie podcast reckons there is two places Scotland yard could send the existing DNA evidence too to get a full result. You'd assume that's been long done?

I'm in full belief that they left her in the apt unlocked and paid the full price for the decision. Wrong thing to do in the wrong place. The cover up is just to hide their negligence no more.

Do you think she was taken by a organised gang or lone wolf ?

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

[QUOTE
Originally Posted by maebee View Post
I'm sure that everybody here is listening to this podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/1FEKcIBxl76fi35VyaEHvb

Episode 6 - the DNA - hiding the DNA. Lots of questions to be answered here. Why won't the Met police send the data to a forensic scientist who may be able to help solve the mystery?

They did https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm[/QUOTE]

I meant why won't they send the data to the scientist in the podcast. He says he has the most up to date equipment etc./much more advanced lab than FSS in the UK, and that he may be able to solve the case. He has requested it but is getting nowhere. He is offering to do it for free.

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Because they don't have it anymore. They only had a fraction of a single human cell and it was destroyed in the process of trying to assess what it was.

gozunda

Something Else

cnocbui wrote: »

Because they don't have it anymore. They only had a fraction of a single human cell and it was destroyed in the process of trying to assess what it was.

Where are you getting this stuf?

A quick check of the PJ files labelled 'forensics' - lists a huge amount of forensic material which was collected for testing. Now unless they have destroyed all of that - I cant see any theoretical reason this material can't be retested or that there are any impediments to do so.

See eg.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm


Plus the poster above asked why the data cant be re-examined. That is the raw results from each laboratory test undertaken. I presume they haven't wiped or shredded these?

v638sg7k1a92bx

OwlsZat wrote: »

He is last shred of semi credible evidence that the McCanns were involved. The Spotify Maddie podcast reckons there is two places Scotland yard could send the existing DNA evidence too to get a full result. You'd assume that's been long done?

I'm in full belief that they left her in the apt unlocked and paid the full price for the decision. Wrong thing to do in the wrong place. The cover up is just to hide their negligence no more.

A shred of very unreliable eye witness testimony. That people are clinging onto this evidence of something that somebody may have seen explains hghlights how weak this conspiracy against the McCanns is.

If your last shred of evidence is that Martin Smith saw Gerry McCann carrying his daughter at 10am then you are clutching at straws.
For that to be true, Gerry McCann would have to be carrying his daughter at the same time the alarm was raised that she went missing, meaning he would have to hide her body and teleport back to the Tapas restaurant not to be seen.

Eye witness testimony is extremely unreliable especially when you consider that smith identified Gerry McCann after his face had been plastered all over the TV for weeks.

As for the cover up. Everybody knows they shouldn't have left her alone, the parents have accepted that they shouldn't have left the kids alone. What does Scotland Yard have to gains by covering this up.

Anytime someone comes up with what they purport to be evidence of the McCanns involvement has been shot down within one paragraph. Let it go.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Can we put the DNA, Cadaver dogs and smith sighting "evidence" to be bed once and for all.

Timeline
6pm Madeline was collected from kids club
8:30pm Gerry McCann was at the Tapas Restaurant
10pm Alarm was raised
10pm Smith sighting

6pm - 10pm maximum time frame for Madeline to go missing i.e. 4 hours. That means that her body would have to have decomposed to such an extent that it was exuding bodily fluids or pungent smells for a cadaver dog to detect which is not possible within 4 hours. Before someone says this was a violent death, if that were the case, cadaver dogs would not be necessary because luminol tests would show up any blood stains and attempted cleaning. The smell of bleach and cleaning agents would be obvious to anyone who entered the room.

Additionally, Gerry McCann would have had to dispose of the body and be back at the Tapas restaurant by 8:30pm which gave him 2.5 hours to dispose of a body and be back in time for dinner without anybody seeing him. This also doesn't coincide with the Smith sighting @10pm because he can't be in two places at the same time.

The DNA samples found in the hire car 3 weeks after the fact matched 5 people, some of which also matched Madeline. However 50% of Madeline's DNA is from her mother and 50% from her father. Threrefore the DNA theory is debunked

Martin Smith sighting at 10pm was in and around the same time the alarm was raised meaning it couldn't have been Gerry McCann because he was in the Tapas restaurant.

gozunda

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

A shred of very unreliable eye witness testimony. That people are clinging onto this evidence of something that somebody may have seen explains hghlights how weak this conspiracy against the McCanns is.

If your last shred of evidence is that Martin Smith saw Gerry McCann carrying his daughter at 10am then you are clutching at straws.
For that to be true, Gerry McCann would have to be carrying his daughter at the same time the alarm was raised that she went missing, meaning he would have to hide her body and teleport back to the Tapas restaurant not to be seen.

Eye witness testimony is extremely unreliable especially when you consider that smith identified Gerry McCann after his face had been plastered all over the TV for weeks.

As for the cover up. Everybody knows they shouldn't have left her alone, the parents have accepted that they shouldn't have left the kids alone. What does Scotland Yard have to gains by covering this up.

Anytime someone comes up with what they purport to be evidence of the McCanns involvement has been shot down within one paragraph. Let it go.

With regard to the bolded bit I'm going to put this up again even though it's been detailed by myself and others many times now.

The timeline as given by the Tapas7 isn't worth the cover of the Activity book it was scribbled on. Significantly official police independent witness statements appear to blow large gaping holes in it and the testimonies of the group members have so many crazy and more importantly unexplained inconsistencies as to make it largely useless imo.

So the story that we have about what did or didn't go on the night in question is like a table with three legs - very unstable and all over the place.

It remains that both the Portuguese and UK police took the Smith's statements as being very credible. I haven't seen or read anything official subsequent to that which says any different afaik.


As to:

Anytime someone comes up with what they purport to be evidence of the McCanns involvement has been shot down within one paragraph. Let it go.

That is your opinion and is not fact. There is little substantial evidence to fully support any of the listed scenarios. That does not mean that there are a number of significant pieces of information brought forward by witnesses etc which raise more questions than they provide answers.

v638sg7k1a92bx

gozunda wrote: »

With regard to the bolded bit I'm going to put this up again even though it's been detailed by myself and others many times now.



So the story that we have about what did or didn't go on the night in question is like a table with three legs - very unstable and all over the place.

It remains that both the Portuguese and UK police took the Smith's statements as being very credible. I haven't seen or read anything official subsequent to that which says any different afaik.


As to:


That is your opinion and is not fact. There is little substantial evidence to fully support any of the listed scenarios. That does not mean that there are a number of significant pieces of information brought forward by witnesses etc which raise more questions than they provide answers.

So you accept the police interpretation of the Smith statement but you don't accept their findings that the McCanns had nothing to do with the disappearance of their daughter. So which is it, you accept the police finding or you do not?

People "believe" they see things all the time, doesn't make it true.

I expect the Tapas 7 timeline to be different because there are 7 different people inolved, it would be unusual that their exact timelines don't match but we are not talking about differences of hours or days, the tapas 7 difference s are minutes which is to be expected.

What we do know and what is generally accepted by most reasonable is that Madeline was collected from kids club at 6pm and the alarm was raised in and around 10pm which is approx. 4 hours. Not enough time for a body to decompose and to be detected by cadaver dogs, and not enough time to clean up a crime scene, which would be detected by forensic luminol tests and there would be no need for dogs anyway, but leaving that glaring fact aside there is simply not enough time to pull this off, hide a body, get back in time for dinner, tell your friends at dinner that you've just killed your daughter, ask the to keep a secret, create a media frenzy, collect the body that you've stashed and transport it in your rental car 3 weeks later to be dumped while the whole world is watching you, not to mention you're in an unfamiliar country, withstand two separate police investigations in two jurisdictions all the while not one of your 7 friends have come forward to tell the truth in the 12 years since because there is a sinister Government conspiracy theory to cover all this up.

That just doesn't pass the smell test to me and I don't need a cadaver to bark or signal to tell me that.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cnocbui wrote: »

Because they don't have it anymore. They only had a fraction of a single human cell and it was destroyed in the process of trying to assess what it was.

You obviously didn't listen to the podcast. Whats explained is that there are analysis techniques that can now answer questions that the initial DNA review couldn't. ie., who was or wasn't present in the samples. No new DNA sample need be taken just newer ways of reviewing the same initial DNA profiles.

Considering the case is ongoing and FOI is ongoing. It seems hugely likely that they can exonerate the parents from the DNA testing and there is a separate line of ongoing enquiry.

Sad as it is the more I think of Madeline the more I come to the realisation that she is likely past. She's too readily identifiable. Long-standing criminal rings exist because they follow strict guidelines and protocols. Her existence threatens too much. Considering what age she would be today, even if she was abducted as seems most likely shes probably since passed

The only happy ending scenario is a well off couple who couldn't have natural kids. I'd call it a 5% chance.

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

cnocbui wrote: »

Because they don't have it anymore. They only had a fraction of a single human cell and it was destroyed in the process of trying to assess what it was.

Can we have a link for that please and also, have you listened to the podcast? TIA

gozunda

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

So you accept the police interpretation of the Smith statement but you don't accept their findings that the McCanns had nothing to do with the disappearance of their daughter. So which is it, you accept the police finding or you do not?

Thats NOT even close to what the Portuguese police findings concluded. The British Police seem to be afraid to undertake any proper diligence in this regard. Whether the Smith sittings was definitly the McCann or someone else the sighting remains relevant. It matters little if you do not like that.

...

tickers wrote:

I expect the Tapas 7 timeline to be different because there are 7 different people inolved, it would be unusual that their exact timelines don't match but we are not talking about differences of hours or days, the tapas 7 difference s are minutes which is to be expected.

As stated there's differences and there's huge yawning canyons which you could drive a bus through. Again it's not just me saying that. The primary police investigation came to that very conclusion. Independent witness blow a hole in the water regarding the 10.00 o'clock alarm. This has also been gone over in detail in this thread.

"tickers wrote:

What we do know and what is generally accepted by most reasonable is that Madeline was collected from kids club at 6pm and the alarm was raised in and around 10pm which is approx. 4 hours. Not enough time for a body to decompose and to be detected by cadaver dogs, and not enough time to clean up a crime scene, which would be detected by forensic luminol tests and there would be no need for dogs anyway, but leaving that glaring fact aside there is simply not enough time to pull this off, hide a body, get back in time for dinner, tell your friends at dinner that you've just killed your daughter, ask the to keep a secret, create a media frenzy, collect the body that you've stashed and transport it in your rental car 3 weeks later to be dumped while the whole world is watching you, not to mention you're in an unfamiliar country, withstand two separate police investigations in two jurisdictions all the while not one of your 7 friends have come forward to tell the truth in the 12 years since because there is a sinister Government conspiracy theory to cover all this up. That just doesn't pass the smell test to me and I don't need a cadaver to bark or signal to tell me that.

A dead body does not have to 'decompose' to start giving off chemical signals of death.
We do not know when she was definitively killed (or died accidentally at some point). Again if we knew the answer to those questions we wouldn't be here discussing the case would we? No one knows what happened. And unfortunately the child remains inexplicabley missing.

Considering the parents have not been interviewed by British police - they've 'withstood' nothing. Imo this needs to be done if only to help properly eliminate them.

I do not have a 'pet' theory as to who did or didn't do whatever. There are way too many serious inconsistencies for any proper conclusion to be drawn at this stage imo. I for one wont be getting my knickers in a twist over it eitherway. But there you go ....

gozunda

Something Else

maebee wrote: »

Can we have a link for that please and also, have you listened to the podcast? TIA

I missed the podcast. Do you have the link pls?.

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

gozunda wrote: »

I missed the podcast. Do you have the link pls?.

https://open.spotify.com/show/1FEKcIBxl76fi35VyaEHvb

Creol1

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

Not enough time for a body to decompose and to be detected by cadaver dogs

The science of what exactly is detected by cadaver dogs is not well understood so we can't say what stage of decomposition a body must reach before being detected by cadaver dogs.

Essentially you are saying it is an impossibility that the cadaver dog could have alerted to her remains in the apartment. If that were the case, I am sure the McCanns would have been the first to say it.

yourdeadwright

Accident happened, parents hid body

Anytime someone comes up with what they purport to be evidence of the McCanns involvement has been shot down within one paragraph. Let it go.[/QUOTE]

But there is also ZERO evidence that she was adducted ,

So why talk about it at all,

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Anytime someone comes up with what they purport to be evidence of the McCanns involvement has been shot down within one paragraph. Let it go.

But there is also ZERO evidence that she was adducted ,

So why talk about it at all,

Are you discounting the countless witness statements again?

tibruit

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

Can we put the DNA, Cadaver dogs and smith sighting "evidence" to be bed once and for all.

Timeline
6pm Madeline was collected from kids club
8:30pm Gerry McCann was at the Tapas Restaurant
10pm Alarm was raised
10pm Smith sighting

6pm - 10pm maximum time frame for Madeline to go missing i.e. 4 hours. That means that her body would have to have decomposed to such an extent that it was exuding bodily fluids or pungent smells for a cadaver dog to detect which is not possible within 4 hours. Before someone says this was a violent death, if that were the case, cadaver dogs would not be necessary because luminol tests would show up any blood stains and attempted cleaning. The smell of bleach and cleaning agents would be obvious to anyone who entered the room.

Additionally, Gerry McCann would have had to dispose of the body and be back at the Tapas restaurant by 8:30pm which gave him 2.5 hours to dispose of a body and be back in time for dinner without anybody seeing him. This also doesn't coincide with the Smith sighting @10pm because he can't be in two places at the same time.

The DNA samples found in the hire car 3 weeks after the fact matched 5 people, some of which also matched Madeline. However 50% of Madeline's DNA is from her mother and 50% from her father. Threrefore the DNA theory is debunked

Martin Smith sighting at 10pm was in and around the same time the alarm was raised meaning it couldn't have been Gerry McCann because he was in the Tapas restaurant.

Gerry didn`t have to the dispose of the body by 8-30. He could have hid the body at 9 when we know his check took longer than it should have. He could also have then moved the body after 10 during the confusion and panic of the initial search by a small group of people. We know he was a fit guy who knew his way around town because he went running every day. The other alternative that might reconcile the Smith sighting is that all the Tapas group are in on it and were aware that Gerry moved the body at the time of the sighting and covered for him afterwards.

I don`t like conspiracy theories. As far as I`m concerned a conspiracy of two in these situations is one too many. On balance I`d say the Smith identification is a mistaken one.

yourdeadwright

Accident happened, parents hid body

OwlsZat wrote: »

Are you discounting the countless witness statements again?

No I was replying to someone who said "Anytime someone comes up with what they purport to be evidence of the McCanns involvement has been shot down within one paragraph. Let it go."

Basically asking if that is your point of view why with no adduction evidence either why would you even bother talking about it at all,

tretorn

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Who is the person carrying the child if it wasnt Gerry Mc Cann, has anyone come forward to say it was them.

SusieBlue

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

tibruit wrote: »

Gerry didn`t have to the dispose of the body by 8-30. He could have hid the body at 9 when we know his check took longer than it should have. He could also have then moved the body after 10 during the confusion and panic of the initial search by a small group of people. We know he was a fit guy who knew his way around town because he went running every day. The other alternative that might reconcile the Smith sighting is that all the Tapas group are in on it and were aware that Gerry moved the body at the time of the sighting and covered for him afterwards.

I don`t like conspiracy theories. As far as I`m concerned a conspiracy of two in these situations is one too many. On balance I`d say the Smith identification is a mistaken one.

If he did it at 9, he must have dumped the body nearby. Even if he moved it at 10, he couldn't have gone far, as that's when the alarm was raised.
So it must still have been in the immediate area.
They had no access to smart phones, google maps, or a car.
So why wasn't the body found? And why has it still not been found, over a decade later?

Gerry isn't just accounted for by the Tapas group as being in the hotel at 10pm when the alarm was raised, he was accounted for by other patrons and hotel staff. Unless you're saying they're in on it too, there is no way that sighting could be Gerry.