Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Spook_ie

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's not the nationality of the truck or the trucker that would be the relevant issue here; it's the origin of the goods being trucked.

And, yes, a fast-track for EU-to-EU goods transiting through Britain would be politically awkward, but it makes good practical sense. Taking out of the queue trucks that don't need to be in the queue in the first place makes the queue shorter and the processing of the queue quicker. Even the truckers who have to remain in the queue will see the benefit of that.

So the question here is whether the British are going to be pragmatic or punitive in their response to the misery they have inflicted on themselves. It's entirely possible that they will be punitive, but it's not inevitable. And, if they are punitive, it won't be at the instance of the truckers. The truckers will be furious about the consequences of a no-deal Brexit, but the industry is sufficiently clued-in to know who it is they should be furious at.

Don't see that my self, the one thing most people would agree on is the Brits are a nation of queuers, and they won't look favourably on any form of queue jumping.

steddyeddy

Angry bird wrote: »

Check out @SkyNewsBreak’;s Tweet: https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1058684017950814209?s=09

Indeed it's true, but British people and particularly Brexiters, know little about Ireland.

First Up

Peregrinus wrote: »

And, yes, a fast-track for EU-to-EU goods transiting through Britain would be politically awkward, but it makes good practical sense. Taking out of the queue trucks that don't need to be in the queue in the first place makes the queue shorter and the processing of the queue quicker. Even the truckers who have to remain in the queue will see the benefit of that.

How do you see that working in Holyhead?

First Up

Peregrinus wrote: »

And, yes, a fast-track for EU-to-EU goods transiting through Britain would be politically awkward, but it makes good practical sense. Taking out of the queue trucks that don't need to be in the queue in the first place makes the queue shorter and the processing of the queue quicker. Even the truckers who have to remain in the queue will see the benefit of that.

How do you see that working in Holyhead?

Lemming

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

Max Hastings had a pretty good article in this weeks Times about the current jingoistic attitude being displayed towards Europe by the Tories. I'm on my phone but I'll put the full text later for those that don't have access.

Our rudeness to European allies is shameful

Edit: It's actually quite long and don't want to spam the thread with text, but the second to last paragraph sums up his opinion of those attacking Europeans over the Second World War

I can't speak for anyone else, but I wouldn't mind reading the full text please.

Zubeneschamali

First Up wrote: »

How do you see that working in Holyhead?

Arriving in Holyhead from Ireland, lorries are either TIR and get waved on or not, and get a customs check.

Similarly arriving in Ireland from Holyhead/Liverpool/Fishguard

Capt'n Midnight

EU plans post-Brexit London 'embassy'

The European Union plans to have a 29-strong team of diplomats in London to represent it after Brexit.

It will be called a "delegation" - not an embassy - and will be part of the EU's foreign policy arm, the European External Action Service (EEAS).

There will also be a mission with five staff in Belfast to oversee the implementation of the withdrawal agreement in Northern Ireland - if there is a Brexit deal.

First Up

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

How do you see that working in Holyhead?

Arriving in Holyhead from Ireland, lorries are either TIR and get waved on or not, and get a customs check.

Similarly arriving in Ireland from Holyhead/Liverpool/Fishguard

Yes, but Holyhead doesn't have the space or infrastructure to cope.

Peregrinus

First Up wrote: »

How do you see that working in Holyhead?

The UK intends to join the Transit Conventions, which so far as I know would work something like this at Holyhead:

- Consignments leaving Ireland for destination in EU-26 are sealed by Irish customs.

- Sealed consignments are not examined on arrival at Holyhead; they're waved through.

- On arrival at the channel ports, as long as the seals are still intact, they are again waved through.

- On arrival in France/Belgium/Netherlans, as long as seals are still intact, they are treated as if they had been shipped directly from Ireland, so no inspection or controls.

And the process works exactly the same with respect to goods being shipped from EU-26 to Ireland via UK.

It does require that all containers are subject to basic triage - sealed containers this way, please, and out to the motorway, unsealed containers that way, to the holding area for customs inspection/processing. And this is something that currently doesn't happen at all, so there would be some additional processing/delay even for transitted goods. But it's modest, and of course every truck that's kept out of the holding area for processing makes life at UK ports a bit easier.

Angry bird

steddyeddy wrote: »

Indeed it's true, but British people and particularly Brexiters, know little about Ireland.

It's stating the obvious from our perspective but it's also in reply to Trimbles accusation, firmly sending the prospect of a deal being accepted or rejected back where it belongs, the UK and the proppers in the DUP.

Unionists are going to find out very shortly what their worth is in London. And even if they get an answer they like, comrade Cornyn awaits in the wings. It's beautiful really.

Capt'n Midnight

Not as big as Windrush, just another minor problem with EU citizens registering to stay in the UK. I'm getting the impression that this won't be as seamless as the UK would like to believe. And again it calls into question whether the eborder or new IT systems needed post Brexit have been thought through.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/03/protest-fees-trafficked-europeans-brexit

In 2016, after becoming prime minister, May described human trafficking as “the great human rights issue of our time”.
...
The government recently decided to slash financial support for potential victims of modern slavery in half, taking it down to just £37.50 a week, and this decision to charge them for registration compounds the financial stress they will experience. The harsh reality is that for many victims this fee will be very difficult to pay, leaving them open to the real risk of further exploitation.”

First Up

Peregrinus wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

How do you see that working in Holyhead?

The UK intends to join the Transit Conventions, which so far as I know would work something like this at Holyhead:

- Consignments leaving Ireland for destination in EU-26 are sealed by Irish customs.

- Sealed consignments are not examined on arrival at Holyhead; they're waved through.

- On arrival at the channel ports, as long as the seals are still intact, they are again waved through.

- On arrival in France/Belgium/Netherlans, as long as seals are still intact, they are treated as if they had been shipped directly from Ireland, so no inspection or controls.

And the process works exactly the same with respect to goods being shipped from EU-26 to Ireland via UK.

It does require that all containers are subject to basic triage - sealed containers this way, please, and out to the motorway, unsealed containers that way, to the holding area for customs inspection/processing. And this is something that currently doesn't happen at all, so there would be some additional processing/delay even for transitted goods. But it's modest, and of course every truck that's kept out of the holding area for processing makes life at UK ports a bit easier.

A logistical nightmare. Holyhead has very little space for on-site processing, never mind identifying and then accomodating two streams of cargo trucks.

ilovesmybrick

Spook_ie wrote: »

Don't see that my self, the one thing most people would agree on is the Brits are a nation of queuers, and they won't look favourably on any form of queue jumping.

I won't lie, on the initial read I missed the 'u' and read that slightly incorrectly!

Capt'n Midnight

Peregrinus wrote: »

The UK intends to join the Transit Conventions,

The UK joined up nearly 70 years on 16 June 1949

https://treaties.un.org/pages/CTCTreaties.aspx?id=11&subid=A&clang=_en

http://www.acci.org.af/services/tir.html

In 1949, shortly after World War II, the first TIR Agreement was concluded between a small number of European countries (Belgium, Denmark, France, The Netherlands, Norway, Switzerland and the United Kingdom).

ilovesmybrick

Lemming wrote: »

I can't speak for anyone else, but I wouldn't mind reading the full text please.

Here you go, apologies for the wall of text

"Our rudeness to European allies is shameful"
Max Hastings

Half a century ago, when that military circus the Royal Tournament was a national institution, there was a contretemps after a visiting Italian officer discovered that his Bersaglieri must perform in a sand arena. He expostulated: “My men cannot run on sand!”. The chortling response of the tournament director delighted countless owners of regimental ties. “They ran pretty damn fast on sand in 1941!”

Amid the pervasive war legacy, many of a generation of British people spoke without embarrassment of jerries, wops and frogs. One of the best things that has happened to this country in the intervening decades is that most people with half a brain, and especially the young, have forsworn expressions of contempt for foreigners, seeing so much to admire in their economic, social and cultural achievements. If many EU nations now face serious political difficulties so too, heaven knows, do we.

Despite my authorship of books about the Second World War, neither I nor most of my readers suppose that the fact we finished up on the winning side in 1945 entitles Britain to the undying gratitude of old allies, any more than we expect the losers to go on paying moral or political reparations for defeat, provided that — like the Germans though unlike, alas, the Japanese — they renounce their forefathers’ dreadful deeds.

Yet one of the ugliest aspects of Brexit is that it has generated a resurgence of casual abuse of foreigners, and of Europeans in particular. In 1990 Nicholas Ridley was obliged to resign from the Thatcher government after giving an interview in which he denounced the EU as “a German racket”.

Today, Tory politicians and their supporters express with impunity incomparably ruder sentiments. Jacob Rees-Mogg cleverly dismissed Jean-Claude Juncker as “a pound-shop Bismarck”. The language of some other Tory backbenchers, according to their colleague Claire Perry, evokes that of jihadists, saying “Begone you evil Europeans”. The vulgar abuse directed at the red EU passport and triumphalism about restoration of the old blue British one would have embarrassed a 19th-century jingo.

Jeremy Hunt’s comparison of the EU with the old Soviet Union gained special notoriety because he had been considered sensible. He said what he did because aspirants to the Conservative leadership feel obliged to express such views to secure the support of the Colosseum mob conspicuous at the party conference.

In such circles xenophobia has once more become respectable and even admirable. Boris Johnson is by no means the only figure who seeks to rouse the spirit of 1940, of plucky little Britain and a bulldog prime minister broadcasting scorn and defiance from the white cliffs of Dover towards repugnant or cowed continentals. A barrage of mud pies is directed against European leaders who decline to concede what many Brexiteers seek: continuing access to the benefits of EU membership without its burdens and frustrations.

To sustain all human traffic, whether personal, commercial or international, there is a requirement for respect. Relationships are overwhelmingly influenced by who makes whom feel good. It is almost impossible to sustain a successful friendship, marriage, workplace association or negotiation without some show of appreciation of each other’s status and circumstances, whether sincere or not.

Unless we suppose, as perhaps some Brexiteers do, that we can shell other EU nations into yielding to our demands, we must hold out to them the prospect of a courteous and fruitful relationship with Britain, if compromises can be reached. To this end civility is indispensable, heedless of whether we reject their integrationist aspirations.

We might go a step farther, and occasionally display sympathy for what continental Europe suffered in both world wars, incomparably worse than our own tribulations, rather than indulge a feast of nationalistic triumphalism fed by movies about Churchill and 1940. Consider the grace and statesmanship displayed by Anthony Eden when he was interviewed back in 1968 for that great French documentary Le Chagrin et La Pitié. Marcel Ophüls’s film addressed with searing frankness his country’s experience of Nazi occupation and collaboration. Invited to comment, Britain’s wartime foreign secretary responded in impeccable French that it was not for him, a citizen of a nation lucky enough not to have been occupied, to offer any judgment upon others less fortunate.

We can imagine the sniggering spirit in which a modern Brexiteer and/or aspirant for the Conservative leadership would today reprise such a discussion. To sustain the confidence of Moggians, Johnsonites and Faragists in the wisdom of shaking the dust of the continent from our shoes, he or she deems it essential to assert that Britain fares better in war or peace without importunate partners; that the modern continentals are making such an unholy mess of their affairs that we should mop our brows in gratitude that we can leave them to it. We are back where King George VI left off in 1940, asserting Pooterish relief that Britain was no longer encumbered by allies.

Yet those of us who travel frequently in Europe never tire of paying homage to so much that we see and hear there. Watching the new French film Les Gardiennes, about the experiences of a farming family during the First World War, one feels a glow of pleasure that we are neighbours of the nation that produces such cinema. Italy is a political shambles but every visit there provides new reasons to love and admire its people. The Dutch give an ongoing masterclass in how to be civilised internationalists.

What kind of Englishman in 2018 can offer rational justification for condescending to foreigners in general, Europeans in particular? Yet that is what Tory politicians and newspapers do almost daily, before expressing outraged surprise that EU leaders at the negotiating table display no inclination towards generosity — or, more frankly, mercy. We should hang our heads in shame about the number of Europeans long resident in Britain who have either already gone home or are preparing to do so, because they no longer feel welcome here.

Ten years ago at a Anglo-German Königswinter conference, I heard the boss of Mercedes-Benz warn his British listeners, with exemplary politeness, that if we quit the EU we might find it cold outside. Whether or not he was right, it is certain that our future will prove permafrosted unless we can restore common courtesy to the language we use towards and about foreigners. In the future that we appear to have chosen, we shall stand in desperate need of goodwill from neighbouring nations which today a dismaying number of people deem it acceptable, or even brave and clever, to insult.

Tell me how

flatty wrote: »

It isn't nonsense to laugh at a mainstream press and politician spouting outrage that EU drivers will be able to fast track when passing into, well, the EU. It is laughable from them, and perfectly demonstrates where they are at. It is pertinent to show them for the idiots they are,and extremely germane to the discussion that they are, in fact, idiots, and one cannot assume any kind of rationality or normal discourse or negotiation with such ignorant fools. I'm fact, I'm beginning to wonder why we, or the EU, waste any time and energy on this. Make an offer, explain that it is a final offer, and let them go and turn on each other out of the room. Plan for, and expect, a no deal brexit, and just cope with what will be a relatively minor bump in the road for the EU.
In short, you cannot reason with or deal with such people, you will never address or change this level of ignorance, so fcuk 'em.

That is the approach being taken by the hard Brexiteers....

See how its working out for them.

Angry bird

That's a fantastic article, and speaks volumes for the art of diplomacy. Instead now we get words intended to evoke aggression. X smashed by y in the debate, undisguised vitriol aimed at a particular group or groups in an unashamed attempt to score political points. The problem with such provocative language in political discourse, it can lead to actions, intended or otherwise. Of course this is personified by Trump, who is very comfortable fighting it out in the mud.

Tell me how

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

Max Hastings had a pretty good article in this weeks Times about the current jingoistic attitude being displayed towards Europe by the Tories. I'm on my phone but I'll put the full text later for those that don't have access.

That reminded me of a comment to the BBC by Michael Heseltine immediately after the Brexit vote.

He's final comment was prescient. "It is as dark a moment as I have lived through." And that was 2 years ago!

Amongst other things, it shows how the younger generations always want to make their mark and will often ignore the experienced voices which they have at their disposal.

lawred2

Tell me how wrote: »

That reminded me of a comment to the BBC by Michael Heseltine immediately after the Brexit vote.

He's final comment was prescient. "It is as dark a moment as I have lived through." And that was 2 years ago!

Amongst other things, it shows how the younger generations always want to make their mark and will often ignore the experienced voices which they have at their disposal.

Well... It was older people that carried the Brexit vote so...

Tell me how

lawred2 wrote: »

Well... It was older people that carried the Brexit vote so...

Obviously I'm referring to people who have extensive political experience seemingly being discounted within their own party. John Major another one in the same party who spoke very strongly against Brexit.

lawred2

Tell me how wrote: »

Obviously I'm referring to people who have extensive political experience seemingly being discounted within their own party. John Major another one in the same party who spoke very strongly against Brexit.

The time for utilising political experience was back when Cameron should have faced down the agitators prior to the referendum... He should never have allowed himself descend into a situation where he marched off to Europe to great fanfare to seek the unobtainable.. He was always going to come back empty handed.

Once the vote was passed and populism and populist rhetoric was now seen as the order of the day then the use for mature and centrist contributions vanished..

Tell me how

lawred2 wrote: »

The time for utilising political experience was back when Cameron should have faced down the agitators prior to the referendum... He should never have allowed himself descend into a situation where he marched off to Europe to great fanfare to seek the unobtainable.. He was always going to come back empty handed.

Once the vote was passed and populism and populist rhetoric was now seen as the order of the day then the use for mature and centrist contributions vanished..

Do you think Heseltine and Major changed their views after the referendum?
The above video was just 3 days after it.

lawred2

Tell me how wrote: »

Do you think Heseltine and Major changed their views after the referendum?
The above video was just 3 days after it.

I didn't say anything about anyone changing their minds. I said the environment for experience, diplomacy and manners disappeared on Brexit referendum day. The people chose populism. Not enough people care for fact, reason or experience any more.

In reality, the more Brussels you are - the more tainted you are.

Strazdas

lawred2 wrote: »

The time for utilising political experience was back when Cameron should have faced down the agitators prior to the referendum... He should never have allowed himself descend into a situation where he marched off to Europe to great fanfare to seek the unobtainable.. He was always going to come back empty handed.

Once the vote was passed and populism and populist rhetoric was now seen as the order of the day then the use for mature and centrist contributions vanished..

Absolutely : he was creating the narrative of a hostile EU that wouldn't lift a finger to help the UK. Many of the Brexit crowd cite the February 2016 EU summit as a reason for voting Leave.

It's nearly forgotten that Cameron 'threatened' to hold a referendum and to campaign for Leave at one point before calling the actual referendum. He was a Eurosceptic PM and playing with fire, until it eventually blew up in his face.

mayo.mick

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1058769734504775681

WomanSkirtFan8

lawred2 wrote: »

Well... It was older people that carried the Brexit vote so...

Correct and in doing so, they managed to destroy all of their children's and young peoples' futures in the uk in the process.

RobMc59

flatty wrote: »

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

flatty wrote: »

�� �� ��

Cut out the nonsense please.

It isn't nonsense to laugh at a mainstream press and politician spouting outrage that EU drivers will be able to fast track when passing into, well, the EU. It is laughable from them, and perfectly demonstrates where they are at. It is pertinent to show them for the idiots they are,and extremely germane to the discussion that they are, in fact, idiots, and one cannot assume any kind of rationality or normal discourse or negotiation with such ignorant fools. I'm fact, I'm beginning to wonder why we, or the EU, waste any time and energy on this. Make an offer, explain that it is a final offer, and let them go and turn on each other out of the room. Plan for, and expect, a no deal brexit, and just cope with what will be a relatively minor bump in the road for the EU.
In short, you cannot reason with or deal with such people, you will never address or change this level of ignorance, so fcuk 'em.

Even more funny is that people ACTUALLY believe something they've read in the sun.

Kermit.de.frog

Tell me how wrote: »

That reminded me of a comment to the BBC by Michael Heseltine immediately after the Brexit vote.

Another good one and absolutely true (so far)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL_LtDRMHLM

Kermit.de.frog

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1058844047635349509


Devil will be in the detail

Anyone got the article?

Apparently UK has secured an exit clause.

Indestructable

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1058844047635349509


Devil will be in the detail

Anyone got the article?

Apparently UK has secured an exit clause.

Front page of Times: