Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Wheres Me Jumper?

Enzokk wrote: »

Please link the interview or provide us some info on what he has said so we can discuss it and your point of view of the interview. Otherwise you are just posting and not adding to the thread.

Sky News interview.

Seth Brundle

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

see it's not just Brexiters who peddle misinformation.:o

There is a difference between a slight error (like Hammer Archer's) and a massive feckin lie like Brexit!

tuxy

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

see it's not just Brexiters who peddle misinformation.:o

Depends on if he is talking about the city or the County.

Laois_Man

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

personal choice

Murder is a personal choice.....I don't actually respect your posts anymore at this point.


BTW, in addition to my point about border security costing that £4 Million per day. MP Kate Hoey actually said the Rep Ireland would be the ones paying for any hard border!! It's like Donald Trump re-incarnated before death...."We'll build a wall and make Ireland pay for it".

Wheres Me Jumper?

joe40 wrote: »

That has to be the daftest comment on this forum.
The EU is not doing Ireland some massive favour by supporting the backstop arrangement. We do not have that much clout and 26 other sovereign countries are not that altruistic

The Northern Ireland border will be a land border between the EU and the UK, a major world economy. Collectively the EU are looking after their own interests.

The DUP would be irrelevant in this discussion if May had not called an election. This has nothing to do with them

i disagree as i'm sure they do, and besides 17m people voted for Brexit. how many people live on the border does anybody know?

FrancieBrady

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

i disagree as i'm sure they do, and besides 17m people voted for Brexit. how many people live on the border does anybody know?

The UK have twice agreed to a solution that allows them to Brexit. We as members of the EU have endorsed BOTH those agreements and the DUP have said NO.

That is a tiny minority party blocking the UK government doing a deal that that has been agreed TWICE.

Get off the blame the Irish border dweller horse there horse. :rolleyes:

tuxy

Does anyone that isn't a UKIP voter believe that the UK can go no deal on Brexit, have no border or tariffs under WTO between the UK and Ireland and also offer that same no tariffs to every other trading partner because of the non discrimination rule?

Professor Moriarty

People on the continent are very much of the same mind as Ireland. A little bit of 'It's your own fault" from Dutch PM Rutte:

"The deal is there because of the red lines the UK itself drew: no border in the Irish Sea, no membership of the customs union, no free movement of people."


Similarly from the Austrian Chancellor:

"It is difficult to judge, because many of the sceptics do not argue in a way that is really rational."


And some real politik from a German newspaper:

"...even if both sides want to remain friends, in the negotiations over Brexit they can be nothing but opponents. And regardless of how complex the discussions might be, at the core it’s a banal fact: the EU needs to ensure that no one is tempted to imitate Brexit. It cannot allow an exit from the EU to be something worthwhile. This is responsible politics. One might also say: self-protection ... and when held up against the confusion in London the union cuts quite a good figure."

ancapailldorcha

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

Sky News interview.

Banned.

Hammer Archer

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

see it's not just Brexiters who peddle misinformation.:o

Any chance of answering my question? The fact that you're leaping to semantics says quite a bit.

Edit: Well there's no chance now

Laois_Man

tuxy wrote: »

Does anyone that isn't a UKIP voter believe that the UK can go no deal on Brexit, have no border or tariffs under WTO between the UK and Ireland and also offer that same no tariffs to every other trading partner because of the non discrimination rule?

Of course not!

Incidentally there are only 7 small countries in the world where the EU, including Britain, trades on WTO rules without supplementary bilateral agreements - which would all have to be re-agreed by the UK if leaving on WTO terms - leading to short and medium term chaos! These are the important little details that the likes of UKIP either don't know, or conveniently forget to mention

seamus

tuxy wrote: »

Does anyone that isn't a UKIP voter believe that the UK can go no deal on Brexit, have no border or tariffs under WTO between the UK and Ireland and also offer that same no tariffs to every other trading partner because of the non discrimination rule?

Most people don't understand it. They don't understand why you can't just leave it alone and not put a border up. And it's not an "Ireland is part of the UK" ignorance, more of a "look, it's grand, we all agree to just let stuff cross the border, and everything is hunky dory".

It's just one of the many things that made Brexit far too complex an issue to put to referendum.

Even if the UK said, "fvck it, no borders, no tariffs for anyone", the EU can't. Which means that the UK is flooded with zero tariff imports, but will have everything they attempt to export out, subjected to full tariffing. Economic armageddon.

kowtow

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

And some real politik from a German newspaper:

"...even if both sides want to remain friends, in the negotiations over Brexit they can be nothing but opponents. And regardless of how complex the discussions might be, at the core it’s a banal fact: the EU needs to ensure that no one is tempted to imitate Brexit. It cannot allow an exit from the EU to be something worthwhile. This is responsible politics. One might also say: self-protection ... and when held up against the confusion in London the union cuts quite a good figure."

Real Politik indeed, but it has to be recognized that being treated harshly pour encourager les autres is not in itself a reason not to leave the organisation that seeks to use a (soon to be ex) member as leverage.

If anything it would tend to confirm to those who voted leave that their instincts were correct.

Likewise Leo's - perhaps not so helpful - suggestion this afternoon that the UK might postpone or revoke Article 50 in order to avoid a no deal is likely to play into the hands of those that suggest that the EU & Ireland were playing politics all along, using the border to hobble the UK in it's democratic intention of leaving the EU.

Enzokk

kowtow wrote: »

Real Politik indeed, but it has to be recognized that being treated harshly pour encourager les autres is not in itself a reason not to leave the organisation that seeks to use a (soon to be ex) member as leverage.

If anything it would tend to confirm to those who voted leave that their instincts were correct.

Likewise Leo's - perhaps not so helpful - suggestion this afternoon that the UK might postpone or revoke Article 50 in order to avoid a no deal is likely to play into the hands of those that suggest that the EU & Ireland were playing politics all along, using the border to hobble the UK in it's democratic intention of leaving the EU.

Well if they haven't made sufficient plans for no-deal and there is no way to get a deal renegotiated, what other options are there? Now what he said may not be comfortable to hear but it doesn't mean it is wrong for Brexiters.

Professor Moriarty

kowtow wrote: »

Real Politik indeed, but it has to be recognized that being treated harshly pour encourager les autres is not in itself a reason not to leave the organisation that seeks to use a (soon to be ex) member as leverage.

If anything it would tend to confirm to those who voted leave that their instincts were correct.

Likewise Leo's - perhaps not so helpful - suggestion this afternoon that the UK might postpone or revoke Article 50 in order to avoid a no deal is likely to play into the hands of those that suggest that the EU & Ireland were playing politics all along, using the border to hobble the UK in it's democratic intention of leaving the EU.

Yeah. Let's remember that the UK decided to leave. Let's remember also that they triggered Article 50 without a plan of any sort. And they arbitrarily set red lines prior to negotiation. Let's remember that they can't agree amongst themselves as to what they want. If it's news to them that the EU couldn't let them leave on better terms than remaining then they are truly stupid. If those who voted leave want to blame the EU for their leaving, then they are deluding themselves.

Also, Leo's suggestion is obviously meant to be helpful. If that is deliberately twisted then that's the fault of those who twist his words. Enough of the tiptoeing around the likes of Mogg.

20silkcut

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Yeah. Let's remember that the UK decided to leave. Let's remember also that they triggered Article 50 without a plan of any sort. And they arbitrarily set red lines prior to negotiation. Let's remember that they can't agree amongst themselves as to what they want. If it's news to them that the EU couldn't let them leave on better terms than remaining then they are truly stupid. If those who voted leave want to blame the EU for their leaving, then they are deluding themselves.

Also, Leo's suggestion is obviously meant to be helpful. If that is deliberately twisted then that's the fault of those who twist his words. Enough of the tiptoeing around the likes of Mogg.

But some of them think no deal is better than what they have.
Some people would love to see the borders close.
They’d also love to see the city of London in chaos.
They’d love to see fat cat business suffering.
They’d be excited by the prospect of chaos.
Anyone see the welsh guy saying that they survived blockades in ww2 ?
Is it 35-40% in favour of no deal in polling.
And the DUP would love a hard border and would be in ecstasy altogether if the British army redeployed in NI.

This is what your dealing with.

Enzokk

20silkcut wrote: »

But some of them think no deal is better than what they have.
Some people would love to see the borders close.
They’d also love to see the city of London in chaos.
They’d love to see fat cat business suffering.
They’d be excited by the prospect of chaos.
Anyone see the welsh guy saying that they survived blockades in ww2 ?
Is it 35-40% in favour of no deal in polling.
And the DUP would love a hard border and would be in ecstasy altogether if the British army redeployed in NI.

This is what your dealing with.

Thank goodness all of the above is a minority view in the UK so you would assume that the adults in the room will get together to avoid the chaos. Then again, when you assume you make an....

Professor Moriarty

Enzokk wrote: »

Thank goodness all of the above is a minority view in the UK so you would assume that the adults in the room will get together to avoid the chaos. Then again, when you assume you make an....

It would be easier to herd cats.

kowtow

20silkcut wrote: »

But some of them think no deal is better than what they have.
Some people would love to see the borders close.
They’d also love to see the city of London in chaos.
They’d love to see fat cat business suffering.
They’d be excited by the prospect of chaos.
Anyone see the welsh guy saying that they survived blockades in ww2 ?
Is it 35-40% in favour of no deal in polling.
And the DUP would love a hard border and would be in ecstasy altogether if the British army redeployed in NI.

This is what your dealing with.

And - even if there is a second referendum which I personally doubt - I cannot see how it can be put without including the option for no deal.

The problem is that whilst seemingly nobody can find a majority for any particular way forward, there is only one option which has been explicitly rejected by the people in a vote (and also by Parliament) and that is the option to Remain.

To hold a referendum with an option to remain but without an option to leave on WTO terms (or no-deal) seems to me a difficult position to defend even if one agrees with the principle of a second referendum.

If it comes to a second referendum, in addition to the new slogan ("Tell them AGAIN") the statements and behavior of EU leaders including Leo in past weeks will form a major part of the message of the Leave campaign.

Kermit.de.frog

Once again Varadkar strays in to the territory of telling another parliament what it should do. Again he did it on Article 50.

His advisers need to ask him to stop doing that as it will only annoy people and politicians in Britain (rightly so).

Professor Moriarty

kowtow wrote: »

And - even if there is a second referendum which I personally doubt - I cannot see how it can be put without including the option for no deal.

The problem is that whilst seemingly nobody can find a majority for any particular way forward, there is only one option which has been explicitly rejected by the people in a vote (and also by Parliament) and that is the option to Remain.

To hold a referendum with an option to remain but without an option to leave on WTO terms (or no-deal) seems to me a difficult position to defend even if one agrees with the principle of a second referendum.

If it comes to a second referendum, in addition to the new slogan ("Tell them AGAIN") the statements and behavior of EU leaders including Leo in past weeks will form a major part of the message of the Leave campaign.

And if the British people choose to believe lies again then that's their problem.

Professor Moriarty

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Once again Varadkar strays in to the territory of telling another parliament what it should do. Again he did it on Article 50.

His advisers need to ask him to stop doing that as it will only annoy people and politicians in Britain (rightly so).

Did he tell them what to do?

Enzokk

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Once again Varadkar strays in to the territory of telling another parliament what it should do. Again he did it on Article 50.

His advisers need to ask him to stop doing that as it will only annoy people and politicians in Britain (rightly so).

You have the option to buy take-away food this evening for dinner. Is that me telling you what you should eat or telling you what options you have?

blanch152

Why have we two threads on the go?

Laois_Man

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Did he tell them what to do?

No he didn't - He merely stated what their possible choices were for achieveing more time for the UK to decide what the hell it wants and on the matter of revoking or delaying article 50 said "If they don't wish to, I understand that and we will continue to work towards the ratification of the deal we've made"

listermint

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Once again Varadkar strays in to the territory of telling another parliament what it should do. Again he did it on Article 50.

His advisers need to ask him to stop doing that as it will only annoy people and politicians in Britain (rightly so).

Once again Kermit makes assumptions that are not true. Earlier today with had some nonsense from a Daily Express article which was absolute.

Professor Moriarty

Laois_Man wrote: »

No he didn't - He merely stated what their possible choices were for achieveing more time for the UK to decide what the hell it wants and on the matter of revoking or delaying article 50 said "If they don't wish to, I understand that and we will continue to work towards the ratification of the deal we've made"

Exactly. If it's okay for Merkel, Macron and Rutte to offer opinions (opinions that are much more forceful), then it's okay for our Taoiseach to make helpful suggestions when questioned by a reporter.

Laois_Man

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Exactly. If it's okay for Merkel, Macron and Rutte to offer opinions (opinions that are much more forceful), then it's okay for our Taoiseach to make helpful suggestions when questioned by a reporter.

The problem is, Sky News keep playing it, but since the interview went live, they haven't played the full context of the statement once since.

Professor Moriarty

Laois_Man wrote: »

The problem is, Sky News keep playing it, but since the interview went live, they haven't played the full context of the statement once since.

Indeed. But at what stage do we stop tiptoeing around these liars? It's like being in a room with a three year old throwing constant tantrums. At some stage you have to say enough is enough.

kuro68k

None of it matters because May won't get anything meaningful out of the EU now. The vote on the deal will be lost, it's just a question of when.

She must be hoping something will happen to help her, desperately clinging on, all the time taking us closer to a hard brexit.