BEEP (Beef Environmental Efficiency Pilot Scheme)

Willfarman

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/payment-for-weighing-calves-a-good-move/

A reasonably sensible response?

_Brian

Willfarman wrote: »

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/payment-for-weighing-calves-a-good-move/

A reasonably sensible response?

Does a farmer with his own scales get it ??

Leading from that

If I pretend to have my own scales will I get it ??

Water John

Well Kathy Mac €40 per calf will make it all worthwhile.

Figerty

_Brian wrote: »

Does a farmer with his own scales get it ??

Leading from that

If I pretend to have my own scales will I get it ??

Na, buy a few bags of manure,. a barrel and a plank of wood.. Plank goes on barrel..
Put the calf on one end,.. and a bag of manure at the other.. when they balance the calf is 50Kg.. two bags means the calf is now 100 kg.

Keep weighing until the manure has to go out..

Water John

You could steal the one in the bathroom if the wife doesn't see you. Pick up the calf and weigh the two of you. Now if you're as heavy as me, that trick won't really work.

dh1985

Water John wrote: »

You could steal the one in the bathroom if the wife doesn't see you. Pick up the calf and weigh the two of you. Now if you're as heavy as me, that trick won't really work.

What would the wife say about the scour sprayed all over the bathroom though. Would you have to take thw blame for that so she doesnt find out

Water John

Ah feck, take the scales down to the calf shed, like any dacent man would do.

KatyMac

Water John wrote: »

Well Kathy Mac €40 per calf will make it all worthwhile.

'Twil in my left eyebrow......either buy or rent scales or hire man to do the weights. Drag the cattle to the yard to get them done (hiring man with lorry) then back to various outfarms (again hire man with lorry) and then give probably half of that €40 to Teagasc to fill out the paperwork - I'm fed up to back teeth of schemes that puts a lot more money into the pockets of so called advisors than I ever see. Not that I'm in any way bitter:rolleyes:

wrangler

KatyMac wrote: »

'Twil in my left eyebrow......either buy or rent scales or hire man to do the weights. Drag the cattle to the yard to get them done (hiring man with lorry) then back to various outfarms (again hire man with lorry) and then give probably half of that €40 to Teagasc to fill out the paperwork - I'm fed up to back teeth of schemes that puts a lot more money into the pockets of so called advisors than I ever see. Not that I'm in any way bitter:rolleyes:

As you say, another waste of time, people who are getting too much already are getting the most of it and those that need it getting SFA

TooOldBoots

KatyMac wrote: »

'Twil in my left eyebrow......either buy or rent scales or hire man to do the weights. Drag the cattle to the yard to get them done (hiring man with lorry) then back to various outfarms (again hire man with lorry) and then give probably half of that €40 to Teagasc to fill out the paperwork - I'm fed up to back teeth of schemes that puts a lot more money into the pockets of so called advisors than I ever see. Not that I'm in any way bitter:rolleyes:

Moan Moan Moan all the time out of some
:rolleyes:

Bass Reeves

TooOldBoots wrote: »

Moan Moan Moan all the time out of some
:rolleyes:

Not really it the reality of some of these schemes that is supposed to put money into farmers pockets. Take the knowledge transfer program. Teagasc and advisors get 500/participant not out of our money but still. Out of our 750 euro we have to pay the vet for the herd health plan so in reality farmers get 6-650.

KM is just pointing out the reality of the scheme. A 20 cow herd with 20 calves(unlikely) will get 800 euro. Even if it is all the one unit if you have to weight 3 times/year it will take you 2-3 hours each time with the associated risk of injury to man and beast

coolshannagh28

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Not really it the reality of some of these schemes that is supposed to put money into farmers pockets. Take the knowledge transfer program. Teagasc and advisors get 500/participant not out of our money but still. Out of our 750 euro we have to pay the vet for the herd health plan so in reality farmers get 6-650.

KM is just pointing out the reality of the scheme. A 20 cow herd with 20 calves(unlikely) will get 800 euro. Even if it is all the one unit if you have to weight 3 times/year it will take you 2-3 hours each time with the associated risk of injury to man and beast

This is something the IFA should protest about ;the steady dilution of schemes ie the kt programme the 500 going to Teagasc/advisors would be better in the farmers pocket . I am invited to a forestry KT programme 470 for me 6500 for advisor

Farmer

I dont get the weight thing. Can't they use the mart sale weights, we'll give then a calf at birth size on a scale of one to three. Let them subtract the two and divide by the days in between whether it be 4 months or 30.

patsy_mccabe

You don't have to join. Jeez, farmers are a funny lot. No one's holding a gun to anyone's head.
Isn't it better to do something positive for payment rather than get a straight handout.

K9

Farmer wrote: »

I dont get the weight thing. Can't they use the mart sale weights, we'll give then a calf at birth size on a scale of one to three. Let them subtract the two and divide by the days in between whether it be 4 months or 30.

First 150 days of the calf’s weight gain is from the cows milk. Weighing at this age will give a good indication of how much milk the cow has.

KatyMac

TooOldBoots wrote: »

Moan Moan Moan all the time out of some
:rolleyes:

I wouldn't consider that a moan. I just stated how it is! As others have said there are plenty of hands out for the few bob various schemes are worth to the farmer.
And also there is nobody with a gun to my head making me join this scheme and at the moment unless there is something obvious that I'm missing I will not be signing up. Trying to keep to all elements of a scheme when the powers that be decide to move the goal posts half way through is not my idea of fun. (Again, I'm stating how it is on the ground not moaning).

Sheep breeder

KatyMac wrote: »

I wouldn't consider that a moan. I just stated how it is! As others have said there are plenty of hands out for the few bob various schemes are worth to the farmer.
And also there is nobody with a gun to my head making me join this scheme and at the moment unless there is something obvious that I'm missing I will not be signing up. Trying to keep to all elements of a scheme when the powers that be decide to move the goal posts half way through is not my idea of fun. (Again, I'm stating how it is on the ground not moaning).

Good post about moving the goalposts, as we have seen icbf do with the bdgp and as you say the man on the ground that keeps cows is trying his best to improve his stock. A better scheme might be sub the cost of Ai of proven sires for improving the suckler herd and not icbf and the Ai station promoting the next big bull that turns out a screw and mess up people’s star rating.

charolais0153

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Not really it the reality of some of these schemes that is supposed to put money into farmers pockets. Take the knowledge transfer program. Teagasc and advisors get 500/participant not out of our money but still. Out of our 750 euro we have to pay the vet for the herd health plan so in reality farmers get 6-650.

KM is just pointing out the reality of the scheme. A 20 cow herd with 20 calves(unlikely) will get 800 euro. Even if it is all the one unit if you have to weight 3 times/year it will take you 2-3 hours each time with the associated risk of injury to man and beast

3x3 hours =9 hours. 800÷9=90
90 euros an hour ...not too bad. If i got that every time i brought in the cows id be very happy

Bass Reeves

charolais0153 wrote: »

3x3 hours =9 hours. 800÷9=90
90 euros an hour ...not too bad. If i got that every time i brought in the cows id be very happy

There is another way you can calculate it. 3 year scheme so 2400 euro.
Scales costs 800 leaving 1600.
I injury/year in loss of thrive and injections and risk of vet call 50 euro leaves 1450 over the three years. that is 483. 3X3 hour and 3X1 hour(filling up paper work) =40.25/hour still good money but not putting real money into a farmer pocket.

Then comes the sting once during the three year the Dept f@@k up on the paper work and you spend 16 hours chasing it and sorting it out. if that happens it it is 27/hour.


Oops I forgot about the ICBF 60/year if not in it already so take away another 180 euro over the three year leaving 35/ hour in normal circumstances and if the dept make a mistake 24.5/hour

patsy_mccabe

Lads, is this scheme not similar to the WHPR currently up and running with ICBF.
If so, then the farmer does not have to buy his own scales;

"The ICBF Scorer will have a weighing scales for weighing & restraining animals"
https://www.icbf.com/wp/?page_id=8066

I was seriously considering joining this existing programme as I have pedigree cattle. For €40, the decision is made.

wrangler

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Lads, is this scheme not similar to the WHPR currently up and running with ICBF.
If so, then the farmer does not have to buy his own scales;

"The ICBF Scorer will have a weighing scales for weighing & restraining animals"
https://www.icbf.com/wp/?page_id=8066

I was seriously considering joining this existing programme as I have pedigree cattle. For €40, the decision is made.

My nephew does it for ICBF and all he has is a weigh platform that goes in the farmers crush........doesn't restrain them

Never wrestle with pigs

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Lads, is this scheme not similar to the WHPR currently up and running with ICBF.
If so, then the farmer does not have to buy his own scales;

"The ICBF Scorer will have a weighing scales for weighing & restraining animals"
https://www.icbf.com/wp/?page_id=8066

I was seriously considering joining this existing programme as I have pedigree cattle. For €40, the decision is made.

Have you to start vaccinating everything for bvd,lepto, ibr, joans, etc when you join that? More money. When you take animals to the mart and bring them back do you not loose your health status? I'm told from a few pedigree breeder's that it's an expensive program. I haven't fully looked into it yet myself but I don't think it's to simple.

charolais0153

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is another way you can calculate it. 3 year scheme so 2400 euro.
Scales costs 800 leaving 1600.
I injury/year in loss of thrive and injections and risk of vet call 50 euro leaves 1450 over the three years. that is 483. 3X3 hour and 3X1 hour(filling up paper work) =40.25/hour still good money but not putting real money into a farmer pocket.

Then comes the sting once during the three year the Dept f@@k up on the paper work and you spend 16 hours chasing it and sorting it out. if that happens it it is 27/hour.


Oops I forgot about the ICBF 60/year if not in it already so take away another 180 euro over the three year leaving 35/ hour in normal circumstances and if the dept make a mistake 24.5/hour

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, wouldn't it be a Merry Christmas
Its a lot better than a slap on the wrist.
I have no intention of buying a scales for a few hours work. Borrowing one or even hiring one is a much better alternative

dh1985

charolais0153 wrote: »

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, wouldn't it be a Merry Christmas
Its a lot better than a slap on the wrist.
I have no intention of buying a scales for a few hours work. Borrowing one or even hiring one is a much better alternative

Have to agree with you. Its could be a handy 40e per cow for damn all work. And gives the farmers a better indication of what actually is gping on. The last time i remembered farmers been paid for something they should be doing anyway for their own benefit was reps2.

But also ass bass has said teagasc are increasingly finding ways to keep themselves in handy no's on backs of the farmer. The glas scheme been a good example also. Been rode sideways for doing up plans

patsy_mccabe

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Have you to start vaccinating everything for bvd,lepto, ibr, joans, etc when you join that? More money. When you take animals to the mart and bring them back do you not loose your health status? I'm told from a few pedigree breeder's that it's an expensive program. I haven't fully looked into it yet myself but I don't think it's to simple.

This new scheme seems to be about weighing only. Don't even now if they will linear score. Confused myself now will all these schemes. The Limousin Society do a 'Limo Leader Herd Health'. Don't know how this overlaps with WHPR. :mad:

Never wrestle with pigs

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

This new scheme seems to be about weighing only. Don't even now if they will linear score. Confused myself now will all these schemes. The Limousin Society do a 'Limo Leader Herd Health'. Don't know how this overlaps with WHPR. :mad:

Like you I'm only getting in on it. But it's worth your while having a chat with a local breeder that's at it a while.

patsy_mccabe

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Like you I'm only getting in on it. But it's worth your while having a chat with a local breeder that's at it a while.

I know for all Limousin Premier sales you have to be in the WHPR.

Bottom line in this;
https://www.irishlimousin.com/event/2018-show-sales/

I have spoken to a few and they are not happy. Way too much hassle and work for what's in it.

It would be grand if you could weight them on your own, but bring in a complete stranger and it will like the annual herd test. Stressed out cows with young calves.....jumping walls & gates, the whole lot........

Willfarman

How are these cracked suckler animals slaughtered without stress beforehand? Another black mark against the “quality cattle = quality beef” mantra. And another tick for my dairy and beef dairy cross bullocks bullocks that I get no reward for...

grassroot1

Willfarman wrote: »

How are these cracked suckler animals slaughtered without stress beforehand? Another black mark against the “quality cattle = quality beef” mantra. And another tick for my dairy and beef dairy cross bullocks bullocks that I get no reward for...

Were you kicked by a suckler cow sometime in the past you seem to have issues in regard to them.

charolais0153

Have only been kicked twice. Full on in shin by friesian heifer and a graze on my calf by an angus cow.

bogman_bass

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Have you to start vaccinating everything for bvd,lepto, ibr, joans, etc when you join that? More money. When you take animals to the mart and bring them back do you not loose your health status? I'm told from a few pedigree breeder's that it's an expensive program. I haven't fully looked into it yet myself but I don't think it's to simple.

Nope. You dont

Never wrestle with pigs

bogman_bass wrote: »

Nope. You dont

Don't have to jab for everything?

Never wrestle with pigs

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I know for all Limousin Premier sales you have to be in the WHPR.

Bottom line in this;
https://www.irishlimousin.com/event/2018-show-sales/

I have spoken to a few and they are not happy. Way too much hassle and work for what's in it.

It would be grand if you could weight them on your own, but bring in a complete stranger and it will like the annual herd test. Stressed out cows with young calves.....jumping walls & gates, the whole lot........

They are not forcing that rule at the moment because of the backlash it created. They probably will in the future though.

charolais0153

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Don't have to jab for everything?

No. Its just weighing linear scoring etc

Willfarman

I could bore the tits off a Holstein regaling with stories of kicks, near misses, and general trouble and strife with the hoores.

I think every suckler farmer could!
But I will go for an hour on a councillers couch sometime and try get to the root of my disregard for subsidized fallacy that made a billionaire of a sociopath called Larry Goodman!

Buford T. Justice XIX

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

This new scheme seems to be about weighing only. Don't even now if they will linear score. Confused myself now will all these schemes. The Limousin Society do a 'Limo Leader Herd Health'. Don't know how this overlaps with WHPR. :mad:

Just found out there is expected to be a target weight of the calf in relation to the dam. So e.g. a 500kg cow expected to produce a 60% calf rate so a target of 300kgs for the weaning. No idea how that's going to work but weighing cow and calf looks to be part of the scheme around weaning.

Never wrestle with pigs

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Just found out there is expected to be a target weight of the calf in relation to the dam. So e.g. a 500kg cow expected to produce a 60% calf rate so a target of 300kgs for the weaning. No idea how that's going to work but weighing cow and calf looks to be part of the scheme around weaning.

It's actually going to dilute the whole Star system I think. Or any credibility it had left.
Take a big pedigree SIM that can drive her heifer calf into big weight quick. A big pedigree lim cow will have a much lighter calf at the same age but that calf will catch up the following year.

The more it starts to call half our stock crap and try to downgrade them the less I'm inclined to worry about it. Two of my best cows dived in stars lately. Both from well proven bloodlines. Calving intervills around the 360 days. Heavy weanlings being recorded on the mart system. Generally doing everything right. I do a genomic test, all previous data is correct, dam/sire etc on them and they dive. Well feck that for a load of crap.

The more I start to see coming through the more I'm inclined to not care about it. It'll be like ebi in dairy. Everyone was at a race to the cows with the"best" numbers. Now it's only for the diehard and everyone else breeds the type of cattle they want for their own system.

I couldn't give a rats any more about it because it's not putting money in my pocket. All this dismal of a government wants to do is crush every small family farm in sucklers and make way for the dairy expansion. Ahh Sher you can rare their calves or buy the leftover bulls and mind them for Larry for a few years.

They haven't got the balls to come out and say what they are trying to do. Crunch the numbers and call the big cow carbon unfriendly drop the stars and hopefully donkey will send her to the factory.

How much less bagged fert and meal and carbon footprint from milk collection and milking will the poor suckler cows stamp on our country compared to her dairy mini digester to milk have??

Sorry for the rant.

Bass Reeves

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

It's actually going to dilute the whole Star system I think. Or any credibility it had left.
Take a big pedigree SIM that can drive her heifer calf into big weight quick. A big pedigree lim cow will have a much lighter calf at the same age but that calf will catch up the following year.

The more it starts to call half our stock crap and try to downgrade them the less I'm inclined to worry about it. Two of my best cows dived in stars lately. Both from well proven bloodlines. Calving intervills around the 360 days. Heavy weanlings being recorded on the mart system. Generally doing everything right. I do a genomic test, all previous data is correct, dam/sire etc on them and they dive. Well feck that for a load of crap.

The more I start to see coming through the more I'm inclined to not care about it. It'll be like ebi in dairy. Everyone was at a race to the cows with the"best" numbers. Now it's only for the diehard and everyone else breeds the type of cattle they want for their own system.

I couldn't give a rats any more about it because it's not putting money in my pocket. All this dismal of a government wants to do is crush every small family farm in sucklers and make way for the dairy expansion. Ahh Sher you can rare their calves or buy the leftover bulls and mind them for Larry for a few years.

They haven't got the balls to come out and say what they are trying to do. Crunch the numbers and call the big cow carbon unfriendly drop the stars and hopefully donkey will send her to the factory.

How much less bagged fert and meal and carbon footprint from milk collection and milking will the poor suckler cows stamp on our country compared to her dairy mini digester to milk have??

Sorry for the rant.

The government can only deal with carbon the way it is internationally calculated. It is immaterial in reality how much a dairy cow or suckler cow really cause on a carbon footprint. It is what it is internationally calculated at. Look at it from a national economic point of view. A suckler cow produces a weanling at the end of the year that on average is worth across the sector 6-800 euro. A dairy cow produces about 2K in milk and a weanling that is worth 3-400 on average. There is about 3 time the return on the same carbon footprint.

jfh

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The government can only deal with carbon the way it is internationally calculated. It is immaterial in reality how much a dairy cow or suckler cow really cause on a carbon footprint. It is what it is internationally calculated at. Look at it from a national economic point of view. A suckler cow produces a weanling at the end of the year that on average is worth across the sector 6-800 euro. A dairy cow produces about 2K in milk and a weanling that is worth 3-400 on average. There is about 3 time the return on the same carbon footprint.

Jaysus bass that's sobering reading right there & a Conservative estimate on the worth of the dairy progeny.

whelan2

charolais0153 wrote: »

Have only been kicked twice. Full on in shin by friesian heifer and a graze on my calf by an angus cow.

I got a kick in the knee cap off a pedigree limousin heifer I was halter training. It was extremely sore. Will never forget it

bogman_bass

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Don't have to jab for everything?

No. That’s not to say you shouldn’t but you aren’t obligated to under the scheme

Muckit

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Not really it the reality of some of these schemes that is supposed to put money into farmers pockets. Take the knowledge transfer program. Teagasc and advisors get 500/participant not out of our money but still. Out of our 750 euro we have to pay the vet for the herd health plan so in reality farmers get 6-650.

Your forgetting yearly subscription to ICBF, another €60.

Farmer

I don't know what all the fuss about the weanling is. He's not the finished product. The one of the milky cow may be passes out by the well bred beefy type next spring. It's like deciding the race winner half way through. It may work sometimes but often not

patsy_mccabe

Farmer wrote: »

I don't know what all the fuss about the weanling is. He's not the finished product. The one of the milky cow may be passes out by the well bred beefy type next spring. It's like deciding the race winner half way through. It may work sometimes but often not

If the cow is there all year, only having one calf, she might as well put cheap feed (milk) into him to drive on weights. Plenty of AI bulls out there with both milk and good beefiness in their breeeeding.

Farmer

Agreed, but it doesn't allow that she may have eaten the feed of two cows, especially in the winter when it's far from cheap

Buford T. Justice XIX

Mod note: I brought these posts from the Sucker Cow premium discussion into its own thread.

So we can keep all the BEEP (beep:pac:) talk in the one spot.


Buford T. Justice

Bass Reeves

Anto_Meath wrote: »

If you look at it the meat factories don't want the big 400 kgs plus carcass from the suckler cow. They are using ever opportunity to kick it, sure they are paying a premium (bonus) on AA, HE & SH these are the carcass types they want, coming in around 350 Kgs if at all possible. I am guessing there is more profit in the 5th quarter than they would have you believe therefore they are looking for these smaller weights so that they get more heads but only pay for a similar amount of beef. They don't want the live shipping of good continental weanlings either as this is providing opposition to them. One way around this is to produce a good quality AA / HE off a continental cow that will kill around the 390 kgs at 2 year old grading an R3 and if timed right could be pay around €4.20/ kg coming in at €1,638. But the quality of AA & HE bulls with the AI at the minute is very poor.

You have part of it right but not all of it. Processors have a limited market for heavy carcasses. The high value UK market demands cattle in the 280-360 kg bracket Kepack procurement manager said the ideal animay was a 330kg DW carcass.. Heavy cattle go to mainland Europe where prices are lower. For all there love of sucklers the only reason the processors want them is for winter finishing systems.The AA and He schemes stop bonus at 370kgs DW so carry the cattle you mentioned above would recieve no AA or HE bonus. Mabe there is a chance a suckler cow rearing an AA/HE calf killing bulls at sub 16 months but they would want to be Jan/Feb born to be kill in June at 16 months however 1500 euro would be in or around the max gross value of sucha product with heifers maybe killing 330 kgs at 22 months grossing 1350. would such a system be profitable for the farmer is another question

Anto_Meath

Hi Bass, along with my few suckler cows I also rear about 20 AAx / HEx calves, I kill them as bullocks under 30 months, they generally grade O's at around 350Kgs and come into circa €1,300 - €1,400. There is a good bit of work with them for the first fee weeks and you have to buy a fairly good calf at around €200. They have to be fit to be killed before the 1st August off grass. Would an extra €200 - €300 plus €120 subsidy justify keeping the suckler cow, I don't think so and that is the the problem.
The problem with buying calves now is the Jex influence has destroyed the AAx calf and HEx calf isn't much better either so an average calf now in the mart looks like a good one....

patsy_mccabe

Just had a look at this weeks Journal, page 39. You can weigh your own cattle but there might be a caveat. You will probably have to have your own scales calibrated on an annual basis. Now that ain't cheap.
One thing I learned from engineering over the years, a scales that is not calibrated is useless. This might be enough to put people off buying their own.

Say for a 20 cow herd in the west of ireland.
€60 callout for technician.
20 x 2.50 = €50

Say over 8 years (normal write-off on machinery)
Thats €880. Scales will cost more than that.

Basic scales, from O'Donovan Eng for example is €1,595
https://www.odonovaneng.ie/product/eziweigh5i-livestock-weigher-package/

patsy_mccabe

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/deering-confident-new-beep-scheme-will-not-be-open-to-manipulation/

blue5000

It looks to me like the Beep scheme is a 3 year programme crash course in getting rid of suckler cows that aren't capable of weaning a calf that is 60% of their own body weight so we that nationally we have a beef herd with a smaller carbon footprint.

There's a couple of flaws with this;

It's skewed in favour of smaller cows.

Labour; weighing cattle, esp calves AND cows is time consuming.

Are we going to have to weigh new born calves as well?

I honestly can't see 'getting a lend of a scales from the co-op' working out too well.