Leo says "Immigrants 'more likely' to work and pay tax than average Irish person"

elefant

Thread fail.

Tombo2001

JJJJNR wrote: »

He forgot the bit where they get the free stuff first (houses, buggys etc) and then go and pay tax, but still live in the free house without a mortgage.

I think thats exactly the stereotype he is trying to challenge. And it should be challenged. Because its pub talk.

Gravelly

Unless Leo (or someone else) produces solid CSO figures to back up his claim (and I've a feeling nobody will), then it's just another Leoism - a fluffy, empty statement that means little or nothing.

lawred2

Deleted User wrote: »

Given that not many immigrants are of pension age he'll be able to say he's technically correct. The best kind of correct.

It's also very unlikely that Leo is taking retired pensioners into account when talking about people of working age...

So really no idea what your point is.

Have you statistical evidence to technically disprove what he said?

seamus

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

This was an argument in the Brexit referendum too. I think the research is fairly clear, especially for EU migrants. People move to work and have a decent standard of living. The ones who emigrated are the ones with the get-up-and-go to do something for themselves. The lazy foreigners are still in their own country just like some lazy Irish who live on the dole.

Overall I’d say it’s highly likely that migrants are working at a much higher rate than native Irish. The type of work they do might not put a lot of them in the higher income tax bracket, but it’s all work that needs to be done.

It was a narrative started by racists and anti-immigration people, that immigrants were pouring into Europe to abuse our welfare system and send the money home. You'll still hear morons repeating "true stories" from a friend's uncle's colleague's sister about the black woman who left her buggy behind at the bus stop because "they'll give me a new one", or civil servants putting people to the top of the housing list "because they're black".

Ironically those who complain the most about immigrants seem to me, to be the most likely to be reliant on social welfare themselves.

JJJJNR

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I think thats exactly the stereotype he is trying to challenge. And it should be challenged. Because its pub talk.

Leo's PR machine in full swing!

Duck Soup

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Oh Leo.....



Personally I think Leo is talking crap.

link

In my own industry, there's prob 1 in every 20 that would be considered an immigrant (and I include those from within the UK in those numbers)

Just like his "look after those who get up early in the morning" budget spiel (then giving those on sw more in most cases).

I thought the country was back to almost zero employment anyway?

It looks like Leo, (Just like his predecessor) shouldn't ever be allowed to stray too far from his handlers, and seldom left to stray too far from a proof read, pre approved script.

Oh good grief, not this again.

1. No non-EU national can come to Ireland without guaranteed full time employment. They get what is called a Stamp 1 visa. Without it, you're gone. Without guaranteed employment, you won't get a Stamp 1 visa.

2. There has never been a survey - by governments in Europe of any political persuasion - that didn't show that immigrants as a group always contribute more than they take. As my dad used to say, "You don't travel halfway around the world to sit on your arse." What immigrants was he talking about? Himself and the Irish. He moved from Dublin when he was 20 to England. As an Irishman in England, he noticed that the Asian shift workers he oversaw worked longer and harder than anyone. "God they'd kill you for the overtime" he used to say.

It's a very Trumpian thing, this immigrants-as-a-drain-on-the-economy malarkey. "I know every fact shows it not to be true, but dagnabit I feel it to be true."

lawred2

It's refreshing to hear a politician say something positive about emigration given the normalised hatred that has to be listened to on a daily basis to the left and right of us.

suicide_circus

still waiting to see how he will look after the people who get up early for work every morning.

JJJJNR

So what is leo going to do to reverse that trend, or do we just import solutions and leave the non tax paying irish on the dole, to be replaced by more educated foreign nationals who probably regard them as lazy .

amcalester

JJJJNR wrote: »

So what is leo going to do to reverse that trend, or do we just import solutions and leave the non tax paying irish on the dole, to be replaced by more educated foreign nationals.

You can lead a horse to water...

DiscoStu

Duck Soup wrote: »

It's a very Trumpian thing, this immigrants-as-a-drain-on-the-economy malarkey. "I know every fact shows it not to be true, but dagnabit I feel it to be true."

Another case of Schrodinger's Immigrant. Too lazy to work while simultaneously taking all the jobs.

CrankyHaus

Isn't this simple demographics?

Immigrants are more concentrated in the working ages while native Irish are spread across the age cohorts to include many pensioners, children and students.

Gravelly

Duck Soup wrote: »

1. No non-EU national can come to Ireland without guaranteed full time employment. They get what is called a Stamp 1 visa. Without it, you're gone. Without guaranteed employment, you won't get a Stamp 1 visa.

This is patently untrue.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp11eoi/cp11eoi/lfnmfl/

JJJJNR

amcalester wrote: »

You can lead a horse to water...

Its time to drain the lake.!

Podge_irl

Gravelly wrote: »

Unless Leo (or someone else) produces solid CSO figures to back up his claim (and I've a feeling nobody will), then it's just another Leoism - a fluffy, empty statement that means little or nothing.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp11eoi/cp11eoi/lfnmfl/

CSO wrote:

There were 347,233 non-Irish nationals in labour force in April 2016 with a participation rate of 73.9 per cent. EU nationals had the highest participation rate at 76.8 per cent, whereas for those from countries outside the EU, it was 64.3 per cent.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-wamii/womenandmeninireland2016/employment/

In 2016 the employment rates for both men and women in Ireland were below the rates in the EU. The rate for men in Ireland of 69.9% was below the EU rate of 71.8% while the rate for women in Ireland of 59.5% was less than the rate for women in the EU of 61.4%.

There are a myriad of reasons behind this, a large part of which is demographics. It is not necessarily a stat that allows you to infer much. However, what he said is still true.

topper75

Not sure why he is rushing in to defend 'immigrants'. Not many in the circles I move in have any beef with them. 90+% of them are legal and work.

Bogus asylum claimants. Now, try and make the same claim about them Leo...

Gravelly

Podge_irl wrote: »

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp11eoi/cp11eoi/lfnmfl/



https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-wamii/womenandmeninireland2016/employment/




There are a myriad of reasons behind this, a large part of which is demographics. It is not necessarily a stat that allows you to infer much. However, what he said is still true.

The statistics contained above (which I looked at earlier really don't back up what Leo is saying. I'm not actually saying he is wrong - he quite possibly is correct, however he is the Taoiseach and shouldn't be coming out with these kind of Enda-like claims unless he can prove them.

mcmoustache

topper75 wrote: »

Bogus asylum claimants. Now, try and make the same claim about them Leo...

Speaking of bogus asylum seekers, whatever happened to that Pamela one?

biko

"Immigrants" are all lumped together into one group.
According to research carried out in The Guardian, 11,222 British nationals are <in 2015> claiming the dole in Ireland, almost five times the amount of Irish people (2,620) currently claiming social welfare in the UK.
In 2012 25% of Polish in Ireland were on the dole, according to independent.ie

Podge_irl

Gravelly wrote: »

The statistics contained above (which I looked at earlier really don't back up what Leo is saying. I'm not actually saying he is wrong - he quite possibly is correct, however he is the Taoiseach and shouldn't be coming out with these kind of Enda-like claims unless he can prove them.

In what way do they not back up what Leo is saying? The labour force participation rate for immigrants is higher. Ergo, the average immigrant is more likely to be working.

I don't really know what an "Enda-like" claim is but what exactly is your problem with the factually accurate statement?

Sleeper12

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You state as fact that my guess of one in 20 being about right yet you fail to provide any links backing up your claims. I'm calling BS here.

The last census had it at 13%. Quite a bit more than 5%.

lawred2 wrote: »

It's also very unlikely that Leo is taking retired pensioners into account when talking about people of working age...

So really no idea what your point is.

Have you statistical evidence to technically disprove what he said?

Well since I literally just said in the post that you quoted he's likely technically correct I doubt I'm going to find something to show otherwise.
Anyway, the census in 2016:
Non-irish working/ labour force: 293,830 347,233 = 84.6%
Total: 2,304,037 2,006,641 = 87%

However when you consider how few pensioners are foreign-born and that kids of immigrants count as Irish then yes, the "average" immigrant is more likely to be working.

lawred2

Deleted User wrote: »

The last census had it at 13%. Quite a bit more than 5%.

Well since I literally just said in the post that you quoted he's likely technically correct I doubt I'm going to find something to show otherwise.
Anyway, the census in 2016:
Non-irish working/ labour force: 293,830 347,233 = 84.6%
Total: 2,304,037 2,006,641 = 87%

However when you consider how few pensioners are foreign-born and that kids of immigrants count as Irish then yes, the "average" immigrant is more likely to be working.

so what's the issue then?

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote: »

However when you consider how few pensioners are foreign-born and that kids of immigrants count as Irish then yes, the "average" immigrant is more likely to be working.

So the pensions are being funded by foreign workers even though the foreigners aren’t of pension age and don’t rent to draw pensions.

I wonder whether old folk thank the young Irish and foreigners who work to pay tax and pay their pension. I doubt it.

Young people work hard to pay tax for pensioners while they can’t even afford basics like a house deposit. And what thanks do they get from the old gits?

lawred2

lawred2 wrote: »

so what's the issue then?

Well the numbers I just posted suggest that among working-age people he's wrong. Overall I just think it's a silly argument to be starting when no-one is looking for such a discussion.

For Forks Sake

JJJJNR wrote: »

He forgot the bit where they get the free stuff first (houses, buggys etc) and then go and pay tax, but still live in the free house without a mortgage.

Gravelly

Podge_irl wrote: »

In what way do they not back up what Leo is saying? The labour force participation rate for immigrants is higher. Ergo, the average immigrant is more likely to be working.

I don't really know what an "Enda-like" claim is but what exactly is your problem with the factually accurate statement?

*Sigh*

The statistics you quoted referred to "recent immigrants" which is a completely unrealistic comparison.

My problem is that the statement isn't "factually accurate" it is at best, a guess.

Podge_irl

Gravelly wrote: »

*Sigh*

The statistics you quoted referred to "recent immigrants" which is a completely unrealistic comparison.

My problem is that the statement isn't "factually accurate" it is at best, a guess.

The first two paragraphs refer to recent immigrants. The third paragraph, which is the one I quoted, refers to all immigrants.

Mickeroo

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Thats old news. Social welfare tightened things up & that no longer happens. They make non Irish sign on regularly where Irish actually sign on about once a year

That must be a fairly recent occurrence? Been about 2 and a half years since I was last on the dole but Irish still had to sign on once a month back then. They only waived the sign on if you were unlucky enough to end up on jobpath.

Gravelly

Podge_irl wrote: »

The first two paragraphs refer to recent immigrants. The third paragraph, which is the one I quoted, refers to all immigrants.

Among the many, many, issues with those figures;

Almost 53 per cent of the Brazilians who moved to Ireland in the year before census were students, the largest number of any nationality (2,370). There were also over 500 students recorded from each of China (827), France (774), America (662), Spain (572) and India (539).

Seriously like?

53% of Brazilian immigrants are "students" and so not counted among unemployment statistics.