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Bus Eireann - Proposal to Tender 10% of Routes in 2021

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Surely there should be a better performance on the outlined routes when Go-Ahead take over their share of BE routes next year. This should free up buses and drivers surely.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Surely there should be a better performance on the outlined routes when Go-Ahead take over their share of BE routes next year. This should free up buses and drivers surely.

    I just heard word today from an official, Dublin itself has 12 drivers more than required but now there's an issue of not enough vehicles to cover all the work.

    Couldn't make this crap up


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,196 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    What are the issues in Cork? Patrick St. was closed to cars and this caused great consternation amongst some locals but I'm sure there are greater issues other than Patrick Street?

    My parents live on a city Bus route in Cork. It is supposed to have a frequency of every 20 minutes. The vast majority of time you'd have to wait an hour for a bus to turn up. I'm not making it up, it is truly shocking.

    And it isn't a new problem, it has been going on for decades, as long as I can remember. Hardly anyone uses buses in Cork because they are so unreliable.

    Then there was the terrible BE Expressway service between Cork and Dublin. Only a coach every two hours, no toilets, took 5 hours and worst of all, no service after 6pm, sure why would anyone want to travel between Irelands two biggest cities after 6 :rolleyes: Needless to say that most people were delighted down there with the introduction of the Aircoach and GoBE services.

    In fairness, things have improved since the NTA took over, at least on some routes. The private coaches are obviously a VAST improvement. Introduction of Double Deckers on some routes was badly needed (ironically BE didn't want them, NTA seemingly forced it on them), some routes now have 10 minute frequencies and actually seem to be operating to that, RTPI while far from perfect is at least still something, Leap card, the new NTA bus stops and shelters look great and are a vast improvement.

    So a lot of good work done, but still loads to do and improve and still some routes are terribly neglected.

    BTW On Patrick Street, they have tried again and it seems to be going really well now. Many routes have been re-routed down Patrick Street and they seem to be flying done the road and seemingly BE are seeing big reductions in journey time and passenger numbers up. So looking to be a success now. The original issues were really just a small number of very vocal traders. Most people were actually very much for it, including some of the largest traders.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Surely there should be a better performance on the outlined routes when Go-Ahead take over their share of BE routes next year. This should free up buses and drivers surely.

    Heard today from a good source that the NTA are considering a half hourly NX style service to the Midlands (Mullingar (MX) apparently) to commence early next year (initially changing to an hourly service in 2 weeks time) after GA takes the Kildare corridor meaning it will not free up any drivers or buses. Have you heard anything about this Kopparberg.

    Also remember that GA are taking 10 buses from BE. Despite the NTA previously stating that GA would get LDs, rumour from an NTA source is it will now be LFs, this would not surprise me as the original plan for Wrights buses has apparently changed to Volvo UK so nothing is set concrete yet regarding transfers I imagine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    I just heard word today from an official, Dublin itself has 12 drivers more than required but now there's an issue of not enough vehicles to cover all the work.

    Couldn't make this crap up

    Does not surprise me, 17 2008 LDs are still long term laid up due to corrosion issues.

    The 2017 and 2018 single and double LDV orders only made up for vehicles coming out of service due to age and not other vehicle issues.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭richiepurgas


    I'm a big supporter of publicly owned transport systems, but at times my patience is tested.
    A person I know lives on the Cork side of Blarney and, according to the timetable , should have a bus (215) every half hour in and out of the city.
    For health reasons, he is totally dependent on the service to get him to and from work. In the last few days, the buses going to Blarney have been routed through Patrick street, having previously used the bus station at Parnell place as their city centre main stop. All this week, it's been very much hit and miss. Buses are so undependable, he's had to get a taxi a few times as his job would be in jeopardy. Earlier this week, he waited 55 minutes for a bus in an almost traffic free Patrick street, luckily that was the journey home.
    He doesn't care who is at fault, he just wants a bus service he can depend on, public or private.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,196 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I'm a big supporter of publicly owned transport systems, but at times my patience is tested.
    ....
    He doesn't care who is at fault, he just wants a bus service he can depend on, public or private.

    The sad truth of the matter is, the reason you rarely hear complaints about buses from Cork (and I suspect the rest of the country) is because the service there has been so bad, for so long (as in decades) that the people of Cork have long given up on it!

    It is so unreliable that anyone who can, drives, no point in even thinking about buses in Cork, they are so bad. Only people like your friend, students and OAP's who have no other choice take the bus.

    I would go as far as to say most people in Cork don't even know what a good bus service looks like and that you can actually rely on it! Why complain, when you don't know there can even be better.

    Growing up in Cork, I certainly didn't know. We just knew that the buses were terrible and instead mostly just walked the 25 minutes to town, rather then wait for the bus that never turned up. It was only when I moved to Dublin did I realise what a half decent bus service looked like.

    I mean the reason why you hear lots of complaints about DB or BE in the Dublin region, is because so many people actually rely on buses in Dublin. Something like 50% of people get into Dublin by bus every day. So when things go wrong, you'll naturally hear about it.

    In Cork, the service is so bad, the numbers using it are in single digits. Everyone in Cork who can just drives. 2 buses in a row not turning up, no one in Cork would even think of complaining, sure that is normal!! It is Stockholm syndrome.

    DB in fairness to them, while far from perfect, offer a pretty decent service. But BE is just a disaster, I think folks in Dublin don't realise just how bad it is and don't realise comparatively how lucky they are. The rest of the country just takes for granted how bad BE is and you get your driving license as quickly as possible. It really is a pretty sad state of affairs.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,651 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    GM228 wrote: »
    Word is that this extra 10% may be just the start of an expanded tendering programme.

    they would go for 100% if they thought they could get away with it, so may is a redundant term there..


  • Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭91wx763


    bk wrote: »
    I'm a big supporter of publicly owned transport systems, but at times my patience is tested.
    ....
    He doesn't care who is at fault, he just wants a bus service he can depend on, public or private.

    The sad truth of the matter is, the reason you rarely hear complaints about buses from Cork (and I suspect the rest of the country) is because the service there has been so bad, for so long (as in decades) that the people of Cork have long given up on it!

    It is so unreliable that anyone who can, drives, no point in even thinking about buses in Cork, they are so bad. Only people like your friend, students and OAP's who have no other choice take the bus.

    I would go as far as to say most people in Cork don't even know what a good bus service looks like and that you can actually rely on it! Why complain, when you don't know there can even be better.

    Growing up in Cork, I certainly didn't know. We just knew that the buses were terrible and instead mostly just walked the 25 minutes to town, rather then wait for the bus that never turned up. It was only when I moved to Dublin did I realise what a half decent bus service looked like.

    I mean the reason why you hear lots of complaints about DB or BE in the Dublin region, is because so many people actually rely on buses in Dublin. Something like 50% of people get into Dublin by bus every day. So when things go wrong, you'll naturally hear about it.

    In Cork, the service is so bad, the numbers using it are in single digits. Everyone in Cork who can just drives. 2 buses in a row not turning up, no one in Cork would even think of complaining, sure that is normal!! It is Stockholm syndrome.

    DB in fairness to them, while far from perfect, offer a pretty decent service. But BE is just a disaster, I think folks in Dublin don't realise just how bad it is and don't realise comparatively how lucky they are. The rest of the country just takes for granted how bad BE is and you get your driving license as quickly as possible. It really is a pretty sad state of affairs.
    Waterford is worse. There's a bus stop outside me mother's house that never sees a passenger, buses go past usually empty. The drivers treat the job like an extension of their social life, the management are ineffective so the vicious circle since time began keeps spinning. And wasn't Waterford where BE "won" the tendering and where everything was going to become brilliant. Buy an all day ticket and the driver will look at you like you're cracked, "are you sure you're going make enough trips ??" !!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    It's riddiculous that change is still given on Cork services and all Leap transactions have to be done through the driver. Cork would be the perfect trial for cashless driver interaction free flat fare services considering it is a fairly small city which a flat fare would be fairly doable in the short run before being extended to Dublin.

    Also BE shouldn't be allowed allocate coaches to city bus routes it shows a fairly low standard and makes the service inacessible to wheelchair users. I can't think of anywhere in Europe where coaches would be allocated to city bus routes. Also why aren't the double deckers in Cork the same spec as DB ones with lower seats and middle doors.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    dfx- wrote: »
    they would go for 100% if they thought they could get away with it, so may is a redundant term there..

    There is no evidence for this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭TheQuietFella


    What reasons are behind this shortfall?
    Is it lack of buses, drivers or lack of investment by the NTA in providing the facilities to successfully operate these services?

    Didn't that service go to another operator who were all about price and not a quality service? I don't know too many who have travelled this route but I have and it's an absolute joke with significant traffic congestion!

    https://www.rte.ie/news/leinster/2018/0316/947911-bus-eireann-kildare/

    I'm still awaiting a response?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭TheQuietFella


    I heard today from a Dublin based driver that 'Go Ahead' can't get the drivers.
    He said that they took on a number of drivers with a 'B' Licence, provided the appropriate training but they didn't make it at the test stage!

    So if anyone thinks that they can drive a bus, there's obviously more to it than meets the eye! These drivers deserve all our support in their endeavours to maintain a good service and not to have it undermined by a yellow pack government!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    GM228 wrote: »
    The NTA have taken a step back and reduced it from 10% to just 5% only tendering out the 133, 101 , 101x routes.

    The 103 / 103x / 105 / 105x are to remain with BÉ
    Source?

    Only last month the NTA proposal stated otherwise.
    GM228 wrote: »
    Source?

    Only last month the NTA proposal stated otherwise.
    2 days ago

    https://www.thejournal.ie/bus-eireann-private-4373186-Dec2018/

    The journal may not be the last word in news reporting but there it is anyway.
    devnull wrote: »
    I notice that some outlets have said this, however there has been nothing from the NTA in terms of quotes or a press release to confirm it. There's quotes from Ann Graham about other stuff, but not this.

    Just coming back to this topic (not sure if this has been brought up since), which we discussed in another thread.

    The NTA recently published the contract award intention in the Official Journal of the EU (OJ). The notice (which gives the below link) confirmed that some routes will be competatively tendered from 2021.

    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/public-transport-services/public-service-obligation-contracts/

    More importantly it also confimred the 10% has indeed been reduced to 5%.

    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Bus_services_which_will_only_remain_within_the_Direct_Award_Contract_until_end_2021.docx
    Bus services which will only remain within the Direct Award Contract until end 2021 and which will be competitively tendered and thereafter removed from the Direct Award and provided under a separate contract by end 2021

    Table A2: Routes for Competitive Tendering, for operation by successful tenderer in 2021

    Dublin Commuter (Coastal and Wexford West Wicklow)|101|Dublin – Dublin Airport - Balbriggan - Drogheda
    |101X|Wilton Tce - Drogheda - Termon Abbey
    |133|Dublin Airport – Dublin city centre - Ashford – Wicklow - Gorey


  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    The 133 is an infamous disaster. I'd argue competing services could be argued to be all about the same ideology the NBRU claim to represent. Aren't those of us on the left meant to be all out for what's best for the public interest, the social good and the taxpayer? Rather than special interest groups taking advantage of said public via a privileged position? If it's the exects of Anglo getting a special deal from the taxpayer despite running their company into the ground it's horrific but if BE runs a route into the ground and nothing happens that's ok?


    They don't care about public or private, they care about power dynamics and their members interests, and that's ok, but we should remember that they are there to lobby for their members and thus like any other lobby group they should not have disproportionate power - which is exactly why tendering is a good idea.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    The NTA has recently published the report into the next BE contract aswell as submissions from interested parties.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Thread bump here - going by the NTA Board meeting minutes for June 2022, "provisional approval" was given for the awarding of the contract to Bus Éireann in regards to the 101/133 tender.

    See pdf below:

    (Seen this was posted on the Tapatalk forum last night)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Seems BE have already started putting the new LFs (part of the 101/133 tender) into service on the 133 ahead of the route changes in the new year.

    Any word on when those route changes will take affect?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,250 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Have BE sort of given up on competing in the X4 route with Dublin coach? Seems to be all off the M9 motorway and back serving all the little towns and villages along the old road instead.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,353 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer




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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,250 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Yes I meant to say Route 4. Just wondering why they adjusted the route? Granted the old road is very quiet there’s surely an added time disadvantage. Was it due to Dublin Coach and BE going after a different market/funding?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,353 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    They haven’t actually changed the route. They have just dropped four departures on it in each direction.

    They dropped the three X4 southbound journeys which were the ones that used the M9 south of Carlow, plus the 07:00 departure from Dublin, and they dropped four departures from Waterford to Dublin which all used the M9.

    The remaining departures all have exactly the same timetable as they did prior to the change.

    Presumably it was’t making money for them, or with the additional PSO services in Waterford starting, they wouldn’t have sufficient staff, given the ongoing recruitment issues.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,249 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    Yep. I read some very good details about the enhanced service for the 133 on the Bray Independent recently.

    It mentioned some details in the article and from Darren Hall on Facebook.

    19 double decker coaches (LF's) will be delivered for the 101/133.

    16 single decker coaches (low floor coaches in GAI and Bus Éireann) will also be delivered as well.

    There will be a new town service called the 131. This will operate on a hourly frequency. It will run between Arklow Town & Bray.

    It also said that either the 133L or 133B will be run with a TFI operator in Carlow & Kilkenny.

    The new timetable will be in place in the new year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭mikeybhoy


    Wicklow Town and Bray not Arklow is the plan for the 131 unless somethings changed. Where will the 131 terminate in Bray? The DART Station is surely out of the question given the space constraints there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    The 133B currently starts and terminates at the bus stops on Castle Street outside SuperValu. Not sure how it turns around for after arriving into Bray however (only currently happens for the 16:50 ex. Bray)



  • Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭mikeybhoy


    No facilities for buses to turn around or layover there. They could use Woodbrook roundabout to turn around but you still run into the issue of a lack of place to layover there.

    Possibly after the E1 becomes operational that will free up space at the station for another bus to terminate there which would make most sense for connectivity but I can't see an LF making it into the station (think VTs were banned from the station) and I can see it being a tight squeeze for a VB.

    Post edited by mikeybhoy on


  • Registered Users Posts: 307 ✭✭TranslatorPS


    That diagram is a 16.49 arrival 16.50 departure if memory isn't failing me. There certainly isn't a layover issue there right now - there would be in the future, unless they keep on doing such unfeasible turnarounds.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    That diagram is a 16.49 arrival 16.50 departure if memory isn't failing me

    Yep that's correct, was checking myself before posting earlier. Doubt they'd make it to woodbrook roundabout and back in 1 minute during rush hour in Bray - the departure would always be delayed if that was the case!



  • Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭mikeybhoy


    It's a one a day route it dosen't need somewhere to layover. I'm guessing it just runs special from Broadstone to Bray then goes into service as soon as it reaches Bray. An hourly service is different.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,353 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    They are referring to the 133B from Wicklow that arrives in Bray at 16:49 and then returns to Wicklow at 16:50.

    Nothing to do with coming special from Broadstone!



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