Bus Eireann - Proposal to Tender 10% of Routes in 2021

devnull

The NTA have today published a report confirming that they are proposing to offer a further Direct Award contract to Bus Eireann from 2019-2024 for the majority of existing PSO routes, however 10% of the current routes will be tendered out, which appears to be due to poor performance.

Haven't had a read through everything (links at bottom of post) but there are a few things that have jumped out based on having a 5 minute skim through, I'm sure someone else will spot something else.

The 10% will come from a quota of the following routes:

o 101: Dublin - Dublin Airport - Balbriggan – Drogheda
o 101X: Dublin – Drogheda – Termon Abbey
o 132: Dublin - Baltinglass - Tullow - Ballon - Kildavin – Bunclody
o 133: Dublin Airport - City Centre - Ashford – Wicklow - Gorey
o 103: Dublin - Ashbourne - Ratoath - Tayto Park
o 103X: Dublin - Coolquay - Ratoath – Fairyhouse
o 105: Drogheda - Ashbourne - Ratoath - Blanchardstown
o 105X Dublin - Fairyhouse - Ratoath - Ashbourne

The NTA report proposal states as part of it's reasoning

Overall, Bus Éireann achieved a generally good level of compliance with the required reliability and punctuality performance obligations over the three year period 2015 to 2017 when looking at the services in total, although 2017 was a more challenging year. However,performance on individual routes in the Eastern region has been poor in recent times.

It has also performed less well against customer service quality indicators, in particular revised and updated indicators based on the results of NTA commissioned mystery shopper surveys.

Later on in the documents, the NTA also retains a clause to tender further routes if operational performance within Bus Eireann does not improve.

The need for improved operational performance on certain routes, in relation to punctuality, lost kilometres, customer comments or the percentage of AVL data provided. Performance has been particularly sub-standard in the Dublin Commuter area, although issues have also arisen in recent months in certain regional cities and Cork city in particular

In the case of above, in addition to the routes listed above, the Authority may also remove certain other poorly performing routes for competitive tender after direct award in December 2019, unless there is significant improvement in operational performance.

Similar to the Dublin Bus Contract, there is also a clause about changes to services and that if BE do not offer fair costs, take too long to implement changes, or fall short of performance standards, they reserve the right to competitively tender said services

If in the opinion of the Authority either route or service level variation costs or implementation timescales proposed by Bus Éireann appear to be excessive, or the ability and commitment of Bus Éireann to meeting required performance standards is in doubt, the Authority reserves the right to competitively tender the services in question, in order to expedite the delivery of the network reorganisations in a timely and cost effective manner.

Related Docs Here
- BE Consultation Paper
- BE Contract Proposal
- BE Technical Report

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

This might raise a few questions in regards to what the minister previously said in statements during the Dublin bus / Bus Eireann strikes regarding the original 10% of routes, where he said he would not be tendering out anymore than that original 10%.

Aswell as agreements made at that time in regards to that (which I'm not 100% up on so maybe someone can find the documents or word it better)

Edit: whoops never mind, I see you're still editing ! Many thanks.

[Is there any indication of which routes may be up in the next 10% ? (Totalling 20% of routes.)

As far as I'm aware at the moment, these are in the eastern region, Dublin commuter such as Kildare , Wicklow, Drogheda etc but I have no idea of which routes they are considering.]

devnull

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

This might raise a few questions in regards to what the minister previously said in statements during the Dublin bus / Bus Eireann strikes regarding the original 10% of routes, where he said he would not be tendering out anymore than that original 10%.

As well as agreements made at that time in regards to that (which I'm not 100% up on so maybe someone can find the documents or word it better)

The routes that are proposed to be tendered are mainly the ones that BE have delivered a poor level of performance on over a considerable period of time which has led to suffering for commuters.

Not a day goes past when there is a post on the Bus Eireann website about services in the Eastern region being disrupted. This is not acceptable in my view and it seems that the NTA has taken the same view.

This isn't even about industrial relations or previous agreements - If a public transport operator does not provide an acceptable level of service to the public on a route for a considerable period, then I believe that this has to be addressed - ultimately it seems the NTA are doing that here.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

devnull wrote: »

The routes that are proposed to be tendered are mainly the ones that BE have delivered a poor level of performance on over a considerable period of time which has led to suffering for commuters.

Not a day goes past when there is a post on the Bus Eireann website about services in the Eastern region being disrupted. This is not acceptable in my view and it seems that the NTA has taken the same view.

This isn't even about industrial relations or previous agreements - If a public transport operator does not provide an acceptable level of service to the public on a route for a considerable period, then I believe that this has to be addressed - ultimately it seems the NTA are doing that here.

Looking at the routes listed, I have to agree that poor performance is a major issue, I cannot argue at all with this.

I can give many reasons as to why , which include major failures of LD type vehicles on the 133, lack of drivers available for 133 and 103 and so on but it doesn't change the fact really.

The LD vehicle failure rate is very high, something I've ranted about before with passion

The other issue with Wicklow being the bad rosters in place and bad working hours, where by not many weekends off or your day being a 12hour 30min spread with 3 breaks in different locations giving sufficient rest and also optimizing driving time without going over regulation hours etc.,
Great for the company, bad for the driver who wants to spend time with family !

But again, there's no point arguing , the fact stands and it's true , so weather Bus Eireann can pull the finger out of their hole and get things right before it's too late is up to them, but from reading this, I imagine it's already too late.

devnull

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

But again, there's no point arguing , the fact stands and it's true , so weather Bus Eireann can pull the finger out of their hole and get things right before it's too late is up to them, but from reading this, I imagine it's already too late.

The thing is the issues have been going on for ages at this stage, some of them I think date back to 2017 and honestly if they are not fixed by this stage then you have to wonder if they will ever be fixed and at the end of the day, it's a public bus service and the public in the Eastern region have not been getting a great level of service for a while now.

The fact they've proposed to strip these services out and put in a clause saying if services in other areas do not perform adequately they can do the same, is effectively the NTA saying to BE that they aren't minded to tender out BE services at this time, but they will if BE do not up their game, essentially sends a message out to all PSO operators that poor performance will not be tolerated and will be dealt with seriously which is exactly what a regulator should do.

Dublin Bus have retained their services for 5 years and have performed generally pretty well. I'd expect to see some changes in the DB contract around integration and they've also put a caveat in about BusConnects, but the fact they have not proposed any tendering of DB services and want to wait to see how Go-Ahead plans out suggests there is no big drive to tender services as some have suggested.

The view of the NTA very much appears to be to see how the previous tender winners of the previous contests get on and the differences between their performance and those of the legacy operators, before deciding on their next move in 2024, but not at the expense of allowing poor performance to go unchallenged until then.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Again I agree with your statement

Since it will be a separate contract, even though being taking away from Bus Eireann, I wonder what the chances are that Bus Eireann can bid for them, even though it sounds ironic.

The one thing I do have to give Bus Eireann is that their recruitment drive seems to be working , the hire in list from private operators is getting smaller every day and is nearly minimal now with the majority of services being operated by Bus Eireann buses and drivers.

As of this year despite the hiccup at the beginning, the services are being operated again by them etc.

I wonder also, is there a clause somewhere (even though not in the documents) that if BÉ do get the required staff and required services operated , that they may keep the above routes ? (I must point out the 103 / 133 I loathe and would be happy see go but I'm asking hypothetically)

devnull

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Since it will be a separate contract, even though being taking away from Bus Eireann, I wonder what the chances are that Bus Eireann can bid for them, even though it sounds ironic.

I wonder also, is there a clause somewhere (even though not in the documents) that if BÉ do get the required staff and required services operated , that they may keep the above routes ? (I must point out the 103 / 133 I loathe and would be happy see go but I'm asking hypothetically)

They can bid for them - sure, the document states this.

However I wouldn't fancy their chances since I can't imagine Bus Eireann will score that highly on cost in a tender exercise and as for the quality aspect of things, the fact that they've previously operated such services to a poor quality, is also unlikely to help them with that side of the scoring, but that would depend on what the criteria was also.

The whole thing is a proposal and will be subject to public consultation so it's not a final contract - however i think any regulator that's worth it's teeth has to clamp down on poor performance and if the NTA allow BE to keep these services then they're going to be seen as somewhat of a soft touch and that's not good for consumers.

GM228

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

This might raise a few questions in regards to what the minister previously said in statements during the Dublin bus / Bus Eireann strikes regarding the original 10% of routes, where he said he would not be tendering out anymore than that original 10%.

Aswell as agreements made at that time in regards to that (which I'm not 100% up on so maybe someone can find the documents or word it better)

The only agreements were that there would be no threat to staff T&Cs.

Word is that this extra 10% may be just the start of an expanded tendering programme.

devnull

NBRU have issued a statement (see here) slamming this Thatcherite decision saying that it proves that it is all about ideology, despite the fact it's anything but. It goes to show that the needs of their members are always going to come way before the needs of the travelling public.

Since lunchtime, today for example, the people who depend on the 126 bus service between Naas, Newbridge and Kildare have had no bus service with very little notice given and this kind of disruption has been commonplace throughout the Eastern BE network over the last number of months.

Passengers are being let down by BE services in the Eastern region and are frequently left standing by the roadside for long periods of time because of missing services. That is why these routes have been chosen, and as a public transport system, we must always prioritise the needs of the many public, over the few at BE.

In Summary
- DB performed well in the previous direct award contract and retained their routes
- BE performed well on some of their routes in the previous contract and retained them.
- BE performed poorly on some of their routes in the previous contract and may lose them.

That's not an ideological decision, it is one that is taken based on the performance of the relevant operators. And honestly, right now the NBRU should focus on ensuring their members in BE achieve the levels of performance that DB have, because if they don't, then this will just be the start of the dismantling of BE.

The needs of BE staff must never come before ensuring that patrons of public transport service are able to avail of services that BE are paid to and contractually required to operate using taxpayer funds. If we just allow non compliant operators to cancel trips on a regular basis and whole services at hours at a time then there's zero incentive to provide a good service and the public will be vastly worse off.

Graham

GM228 wrote: »

Word is that this extra 10% may be just the start of an expanded tendering programme.

Word from who?

devnull

GM228 wrote: »

Word is that this extra 10% may be just the start of an expanded tendering programme.

Well if BE don't up their performance levels, the NTA are going to retain a right to tender services to the open market, which is excellent news for public transport users as it sends a clear message out that operators who do not deliver a quality service to the public, will lose the rights to run such service.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

Word is that this extra 10% may be just the start of an expanded tendering programme.

Are they trying to get rid of BE slowly?

SPDUB

devnull wrote: »

The needs of BE staff must never come before ensuring that patrons of public transport service are able to avail of services that BE are paid to and contractually required to operate using taxpayer funds. If we just allow non compliant operators to cancel trips on a regular basis and whole services at hours at a time then there's zero incentive to provide a good service and the public will be vastly worse off.

In other words the ordinary staff of BE must pay for the failures of the management of BE because that's what your words mean .

schemingbohemia

SPDUB wrote: »

In other words the ordinary staff of BE must pay for the failures of the management of BE because that's what your words mean .

Do you think the widespread no-showing of bus drivers on the routes mentioned have nothing to do with the staff?

end of the road

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Do you think the widespread no-showing of bus drivers on the routes mentioned have nothing to do with the staff?

i'm nearly sure i remember it being mentioned on here that there aren't enough staff in the eastern region. + 1 particular class of bus having a lot of issues. so those would effect the running of services if those are indeed accurate.
if any of that particular class of bus are going to be transferred to a new operator if they win the tender, then that's going to cause anything from small to large performence issues depending on how many of those particular busses transfer.

SPDUB

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Do you think the widespread no-showing of bus drivers on the routes mentioned have nothing to do with the staff?

I believe that if that is the cause of all the problems then it shows a lack of management skills in dealing with it given that all companies can have similar issues with staff yet in most cases it has minimum if any impact on the pubic .

bk

SPDUB wrote: »

I believe that if that is the cause of all the problems then it shows a lack of management skills in dealing with it given that all companies can have similar issues with staff yet in most cases it has minimum if any impact on the pubic .

I feel it is down to if a company has a monopoly or not (public/private doesn't matter so much). If staff/unions feel they can go out on strike for weeks on end with no repercussions or threat to them, then it can lead to a toxic and unbalanced relationship between management and staff.

end of the road

i believe there were repercussions to the staff at bus eireann when they went on strike. closing of some routes, redundantsies and some pay cuts i believe.
there won't be any threat to the union heads themselves and nor should there be, they are just acting on what their members want.

SPDUB

bk wrote: »

I feel it is down to if a company has a monopoly or not (public/private doesn't matter so much). If staff/unions feel they can go out on strike for weeks on end with no repercussions or threat to them, then it can lead to a toxic and unbalanced relationship between management and staff.

On that basis BE should have problems all over the country yet the problem seems to be only occurring in one area

That suggests it is little or nothing to do with the strike

bk

SPDUB wrote: »

On that basis BE should have problems all over the country yet the problem seems to be only occurring in one area

That suggests it is little or nothing to do with the strike

It is happening all over the country. You just don't hear so much about it because what happens outside of Dublin doesn't get reported as much.

I'm a Corkonian and there are serious issues happening down there too.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

bk wrote: »

It is happening all over the country. You just don't hear so much about it because what happens outside of Dublin doesn't get reported as much.

I'm a Corkonian and there are serious issues happening down there too.

Indeed. BE city services in Cork are woeful. Something needs to be done now. Not in 2021.

devnull

People need to stop thinking about this announcement through the eyes of the few (the staff) really and start looking at it through the eyes of the many (the customers) who h ave been left standing by the roadside for long periods and sometimes hours.

The simple fact is that BE are not providing an adequate service on the corridor in question and that needs to be addressed. BE have had months to do that and have failed to do so and now the NTA is taking action against an operator who is not performing to the levels it is supposed to.

People saying that it is not the staffs fault that the management have failed and for that reason the routes should not be tendered out, are saying in a roundabout way that the jobs of the staff who won't work the rotas are more important than the public who BE is supposed to be serving, who may be close to losing their own jobs for being constantly late for work.

You can bet your life that if Go-Ahead came in and provided a sub-standard service the same people would be the first ones to say that because of poor performance they should be stripped of the contract, but when their own side does the same, then they suddenly find a different rule-book.

Public must come before staff, always.

I believe that if that is the cause of all the problems then it shows a lack of management skills in dealing with it given that all companies can have similar issues with staff yet in most cases it has minimum if any impact on the pubic

.
Cancelling entire services for almost full days, like yesterday on the 126 service, is not minimum impact.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

end of the road wrote: »

i'm nearly sure i remember it being mentioned on here that there aren't enough staff in the eastern region. + 1 particular class of bus having a lot of issues. so those would effect the running of services if those are indeed accurate.
if any of that particular class of bus are going to be transferred to a new operator if they win the tender, then that's going to cause anything from small to large performence issues depending on how many of those particular busses transfer.

I'll jump in again here

The short staffing seems to be getting addressed very quickly in the eastern region, yes it was a major issue before but they seem to be getting it sorted and quickly.

The type vehicle, yes is a major issue, the VDL brand of 2015 upwards causing a lot of trouble and a lot of being left at the side of the road.

Thankfully a lot of these VDLs are indeed transferring to Go-ahead when they take edenderry and Kildare so if Wicklow goes then more **** box's will go, thankfully.

devnull

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

The short staffing seems to be getting addressed very quickly in the eastern region, yes it was a major issue before but they seem to be getting it sorted and quickly.

It's been going on for many months, the idea that we should just say, you provided an awful service for 6 months, but you're fixing it now so who cares, basically says to every operator out there, that they have six months grace to fix any problems that they have.

That's not the kind of message we want to our operators.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

devnull wrote: »

It's been going on for many months, the idea that we should just say, you provided an awful service for 6 months, but you're fixing it now so who cares, basically says to every operator out there, that they have six months grace to fix any problems that they have.

That's not the kind of message we want to our operators.

I'm not saying that at all, I'm also didn't give a time period but fyi it's an issue since before 2014 for understaffing.

Anytime you see a private operator on the road on hire to the company, that should be a bus Eireann bus and driver.

It's very simple, not enough people being retained into the job, doesn't suit everyone, money not good enough and the other usual issues such as people leave, retirements , long term sick etc.

There's many reasons but an issue a lot of employers struggle with

Jamie2k9

In recent weeks BE have gotten city bus drivers to operate a certain expressway route. Nothing wrong with that except the drivers don't know the route and passengers (including myself) had to direct the driver on the route and point out where the exact stops were. Most get away with it on the outbound trip as the bus is usually full so runs non stop but get caught on the return journey.

GM228

Graham wrote: »

Word from who?

It is something we heard on the grapevine at the WRC from someone associated with a certain Government department, coincidently a few days later the NTA announced the tendering.

TheQuietFella

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

Indeed. BE city services in Cork are woeful. Something needs to be done now. Not in 2021.

What are the issues in Cork? Patrick St. was closed to cars and this caused great consternation amongst some locals but I'm sure there are greater issues other than Patrick Street?

Curb Your Enthusiasm

TheQuietFella wrote: »

What are the issues in Cork? Patrick St. was closed to cars and this caused great consternation amongst some locals but I'm sure there are greater issues other than Patrick Street?

Services always late and/or just not showing up, real time info not showing up, dwell times due to leap card machines being outdated and cash fares still being accepted etc. Not to mention the poor frequency on some key routes. It's a mess.

TheQuietFella

devnull wrote: »

NBRU have issued a statement (see here) slamming this Thatcherite decision saying that it proves that it is all about ideology, despite the fact it's anything but. It goes to show that the needs of their members are always going to come way before the needs of the travelling public.

Since lunchtime, today for example, the people who depend on the 126 bus service between Naas, Newbridge and Kildare have had no bus service with very little notice given and this kind of disruption has been commonplace throughout the Eastern BE network over the last number of months.

Passengers are being let down by BE services in the Eastern region and are frequently left standing by the roadside for long periods of time because of missing services. That is why these routes have been chosen, and as a public transport system, we must always prioritise the needs of the many public, over the few at BE.

In Summary
- DB performed well in the previous direct award contract and retained their routes
- BE performed well on some of their routes in the previous contract and retained them.
- BE performed poorly on some of their routes in the previous contract and may lose them.

That's not an ideological decision, it is one that is taken based on the performance of the relevant operators. And honestly, right now the NBRU should focus on ensuring their members in BE achieve the levels of performance that DB have, because if they don't, then this will just be the start of the dismantling of BE.

The needs of BE staff must never come before ensuring that patrons of public transport service are able to avail of services that BE are paid to and contractually required to operate using taxpayer funds. If we just allow non compliant operators to cancel trips on a regular basis and whole services at hours at a time then there's zero incentive to provide a good service and the public will be vastly worse off.

What reasons are behind this shortfall?
Is it lack of buses, drivers or lack of investment by the NTA in providing the facilities to successfully operate these services?

Didn't that service go to another operator who were all about price and not a quality service? I don't know too many who have travelled this route but I have and it's an absolute joke with significant traffic congestion!

https://www.rte.ie/news/leinster/2018/0316/947911-bus-eireann-kildare/

SPDUB

devnull wrote: »

People saying that it is not the staffs fault that the management have failed and for that reason the routes should not be tendered out, are saying in a roundabout way that the jobs of the staff who won't work the rotas are more important than the public who BE is supposed to be serving, who may be close to losing their own jobs for being constantly late for work.

That's an interesting interpenetration of what I wrote .

I've no problem with people losing their job if there are good reasons .

I just believe that it should start at the top and not the usual ordinary worker level it usually does when management screw up

You can bet your life that if Go-Ahead came in and provided a sub-standard service the same people would be the first ones to say that because of poor performance they should be stripped of the contract, but when their own side does the same, then they suddenly find a different rule-book.

Interesting use of the term "own side" there .It seems I 've been labelled an uncritical BE supporter .

I've no problem with the same rule book being applied to everyone I just want it applied equally to everyone .
.

Cancelling entire services for almost full days, like yesterday on the 126 service, is not minimum impact.

And I never said it was

What i wrote was all companies can have similar issues with staff yet in most cases it has minimum if any impact on the pubic .

Stephen15

Surely there should be a better performance on the outlined routes when Go-Ahead take over their share of BE routes next year. This should free up buses and drivers surely.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Stephen15 wrote: »

Surely there should be a better performance on the outlined routes when Go-Ahead take over their share of BE routes next year. This should free up buses and drivers surely.

I just heard word today from an official, Dublin itself has 12 drivers more than required but now there's an issue of not enough vehicles to cover all the work.

Couldn't make this crap up

bk

TheQuietFella wrote: »

What are the issues in Cork? Patrick St. was closed to cars and this caused great consternation amongst some locals but I'm sure there are greater issues other than Patrick Street?

My parents live on a city Bus route in Cork. It is supposed to have a frequency of every 20 minutes. The vast majority of time you'd have to wait an hour for a bus to turn up. I'm not making it up, it is truly shocking.

And it isn't a new problem, it has been going on for decades, as long as I can remember. Hardly anyone uses buses in Cork because they are so unreliable.

Then there was the terrible BE Expressway service between Cork and Dublin. Only a coach every two hours, no toilets, took 5 hours and worst of all, no service after 6pm, sure why would anyone want to travel between Irelands two biggest cities after 6 :rolleyes: Needless to say that most people were delighted down there with the introduction of the Aircoach and GoBE services.

In fairness, things have improved since the NTA took over, at least on some routes. The private coaches are obviously a VAST improvement. Introduction of Double Deckers on some routes was badly needed (ironically BE didn't want them, NTA seemingly forced it on them), some routes now have 10 minute frequencies and actually seem to be operating to that, RTPI while far from perfect is at least still something, Leap card, the new NTA bus stops and shelters look great and are a vast improvement.

So a lot of good work done, but still loads to do and improve and still some routes are terribly neglected.

BTW On Patrick Street, they have tried again and it seems to be going really well now. Many routes have been re-routed down Patrick Street and they seem to be flying done the road and seemingly BE are seeing big reductions in journey time and passenger numbers up. So looking to be a success now. The original issues were really just a small number of very vocal traders. Most people were actually very much for it, including some of the largest traders.

GM228

Stephen15 wrote: »

Surely there should be a better performance on the outlined routes when Go-Ahead take over their share of BE routes next year. This should free up buses and drivers surely.

Heard today from a good source that the NTA are considering a half hourly NX style service to the Midlands (Mullingar (MX) apparently) to commence early next year (initially changing to an hourly service in 2 weeks time) after GA takes the Kildare corridor meaning it will not free up any drivers or buses. Have you heard anything about this Kopparberg.

Also remember that GA are taking 10 buses from BE. Despite the NTA previously stating that GA would get LDs, rumour from an NTA source is it will now be LFs, this would not surprise me as the original plan for Wrights buses has apparently changed to Volvo UK so nothing is set concrete yet regarding transfers I imagine.

GM228

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I just heard word today from an official, Dublin itself has 12 drivers more than required but now there's an issue of not enough vehicles to cover all the work.

Couldn't make this crap up

Does not surprise me, 17 2008 LDs are still long term laid up due to corrosion issues.

The 2017 and 2018 single and double LDV orders only made up for vehicles coming out of service due to age and not other vehicle issues.

richiepurgas

I'm a big supporter of publicly owned transport systems, but at times my patience is tested.
A person I know lives on the Cork side of Blarney and, according to the timetable , should have a bus (215) every half hour in and out of the city.
For health reasons, he is totally dependent on the service to get him to and from work. In the last few days, the buses going to Blarney have been routed through Patrick street, having previously used the bus station at Parnell place as their city centre main stop. All this week, it's been very much hit and miss. Buses are so undependable, he's had to get a taxi a few times as his job would be in jeopardy. Earlier this week, he waited 55 minutes for a bus in an almost traffic free Patrick street, luckily that was the journey home.
He doesn't care who is at fault, he just wants a bus service he can depend on, public or private.

bk

richiepurgas wrote: »

I'm a big supporter of publicly owned transport systems, but at times my patience is tested.
....
He doesn't care who is at fault, he just wants a bus service he can depend on, public or private.

The sad truth of the matter is, the reason you rarely hear complaints about buses from Cork (and I suspect the rest of the country) is because the service there has been so bad, for so long (as in decades) that the people of Cork have long given up on it!

It is so unreliable that anyone who can, drives, no point in even thinking about buses in Cork, they are so bad. Only people like your friend, students and OAP's who have no other choice take the bus.

I would go as far as to say most people in Cork don't even know what a good bus service looks like and that you can actually rely on it! Why complain, when you don't know there can even be better.

Growing up in Cork, I certainly didn't know. We just knew that the buses were terrible and instead mostly just walked the 25 minutes to town, rather then wait for the bus that never turned up. It was only when I moved to Dublin did I realise what a half decent bus service looked like.

I mean the reason why you hear lots of complaints about DB or BE in the Dublin region, is because so many people actually rely on buses in Dublin. Something like 50% of people get into Dublin by bus every day. So when things go wrong, you'll naturally hear about it.

In Cork, the service is so bad, the numbers using it are in single digits. Everyone in Cork who can just drives. 2 buses in a row not turning up, no one in Cork would even think of complaining, sure that is normal!! It is Stockholm syndrome.

DB in fairness to them, while far from perfect, offer a pretty decent service. But BE is just a disaster, I think folks in Dublin don't realise just how bad it is and don't realise comparatively how lucky they are. The rest of the country just takes for granted how bad BE is and you get your driving license as quickly as possible. It really is a pretty sad state of affairs.

dfx-

GM228 wrote: »

Word is that this extra 10% may be just the start of an expanded tendering programme.

they would go for 100% if they thought they could get away with it, so may is a redundant term there..

91wx763

bk wrote: »

richiepurgas wrote: »

I'm a big supporter of publicly owned transport systems, but at times my patience is tested.
....
He doesn't care who is at fault, he just wants a bus service he can depend on, public or private.

The sad truth of the matter is, the reason you rarely hear complaints about buses from Cork (and I suspect the rest of the country) is because the service there has been so bad, for so long (as in decades) that the people of Cork have long given up on it!

It is so unreliable that anyone who can, drives, no point in even thinking about buses in Cork, they are so bad. Only people like your friend, students and OAP's who have no other choice take the bus.

I would go as far as to say most people in Cork don't even know what a good bus service looks like and that you can actually rely on it! Why complain, when you don't know there can even be better.

Growing up in Cork, I certainly didn't know. We just knew that the buses were terrible and instead mostly just walked the 25 minutes to town, rather then wait for the bus that never turned up. It was only when I moved to Dublin did I realise what a half decent bus service looked like.

I mean the reason why you hear lots of complaints about DB or BE in the Dublin region, is because so many people actually rely on buses in Dublin. Something like 50% of people get into Dublin by bus every day. So when things go wrong, you'll naturally hear about it.

In Cork, the service is so bad, the numbers using it are in single digits. Everyone in Cork who can just drives. 2 buses in a row not turning up, no one in Cork would even think of complaining, sure that is normal!! It is Stockholm syndrome.

DB in fairness to them, while far from perfect, offer a pretty decent service. But BE is just a disaster, I think folks in Dublin don't realise just how bad it is and don't realise comparatively how lucky they are. The rest of the country just takes for granted how bad BE is and you get your driving license as quickly as possible. It really is a pretty sad state of affairs.

Waterford is worse. There's a bus stop outside me mother's house that never sees a passenger, buses go past usually empty. The drivers treat the job like an extension of their social life, the management are ineffective so the vicious circle since time began keeps spinning. And wasn't Waterford where BE "won" the tendering and where everything was going to become brilliant. Buy an all day ticket and the driver will look at you like you're cracked, "are you sure you're going make enough trips ??" !!!!

Stephen15

It's riddiculous that change is still given on Cork services and all Leap transactions have to be done through the driver. Cork would be the perfect trial for cashless driver interaction free flat fare services considering it is a fairly small city which a flat fare would be fairly doable in the short run before being extended to Dublin.

Also BE shouldn't be allowed allocate coaches to city bus routes it shows a fairly low standard and makes the service inacessible to wheelchair users. I can't think of anywhere in Europe where coaches would be allocated to city bus routes. Also why aren't the double deckers in Cork the same spec as DB ones with lower seats and middle doors.

LeinsterDub

dfx- wrote: »

they would go for 100% if they thought they could get away with it, so may is a redundant term there..

There is no evidence for this.

TheQuietFella

TheQuietFella wrote: »

What reasons are behind this shortfall?
Is it lack of buses, drivers or lack of investment by the NTA in providing the facilities to successfully operate these services?

Didn't that service go to another operator who were all about price and not a quality service? I don't know too many who have travelled this route but I have and it's an absolute joke with significant traffic congestion!

https://www.rte.ie/news/leinster/2018/0316/947911-bus-eireann-kildare/

I'm still awaiting a response?

TheQuietFella

I heard today from a Dublin based driver that 'Go Ahead' can't get the drivers.
He said that they took on a number of drivers with a 'B' Licence, provided the appropriate training but they didn't make it at the test stage!

So if anyone thinks that they can drive a bus, there's obviously more to it than meets the eye! These drivers deserve all our support in their endeavours to maintain a good service and not to have it undermined by a yellow pack government!

GM228

GM228 wrote: »

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

The NTA have taken a step back and reduced it from 10% to just 5% only tendering out the 133, 101 , 101x routes.

The 103 / 103x / 105 / 105x are to remain with BÉ

Source?

Only last month the NTA proposal stated otherwise.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

GM228 wrote: »

Source?

Only last month the NTA proposal stated otherwise.

2 days ago

https://www.thejournal.ie/bus-eireann-private-4373186-Dec2018/

The journal may not be the last word in news reporting but there it is anyway.

devnull wrote: »

I notice that some outlets have said this, however there has been nothing from the NTA in terms of quotes or a press release to confirm it. There's quotes from Ann Graham about other stuff, but not this.

Just coming back to this topic (not sure if this has been brought up since), which we discussed in another thread.

The NTA recently published the contract award intention in the Official Journal of the EU (OJ). The notice (which gives the below link) confirmed that some routes will be competatively tendered from 2021.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/public-transport-services/public-service-obligation-contracts/

More importantly it also confimred the 10% has indeed been reduced to 5%.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Bus_services_which_will_only_remain_within_the_Direct_Award_Contract_until_end_2021.docx

Bus services which will only remain within the Direct Award Contract until end 2021 and which will be competitively tendered and thereafter removed from the Direct Award and provided under a separate contract by end 2021

Table A2: Routes for Competitive Tendering, for operation by successful tenderer in 2021

Dublin Commuter (Coastal and Wexford West Wicklow)|101|Dublin – Dublin Airport - Balbriggan - Drogheda
|101X|Wilton Tce - Drogheda - Termon Abbey
|133|Dublin Airport – Dublin city centre - Ashford – Wicklow - Gorey

XPS_Zero

The 133 is an infamous disaster. I'd argue competing services could be argued to be all about the same ideology the NBRU claim to represent. Aren't those of us on the left meant to be all out for what's best for the public interest, the social good and the taxpayer? Rather than special interest groups taking advantage of said public via a privileged position? If it's the exects of Anglo getting a special deal from the taxpayer despite running their company into the ground it's horrific but if BE runs a route into the ground and nothing happens that's ok?


They don't care about public or private, they care about power dynamics and their members interests, and that's ok, but we should remember that they are there to lobby for their members and thus like any other lobby group they should not have disproportionate power - which is exactly why tendering is a good idea.

GM228

The NTA has recently published the report into the next BE contract aswell as submissions from interested parties.

p_haugh

Thread bump here - going by the NTA Board meeting minutes for June 2022, "provisional approval" was given for the awarding of the contract to Bus Éireann in regards to the 101/133 tender.

See pdf below:

Agreed-Minutes-of-June-2022-Board-Meeting.pdf

(Seen this was posted on the Tapatalk forum last night)

p_haugh

Seems BE have already started putting the new LFs (part of the 101/133 tender) into service on the 133 ahead of the route changes in the new year.

Any word on when those route changes will take affect?

road_high

Have BE sort of given up on competing in the X4 route with Dublin coach? Seems to be all off the M9 motorway and back serving all the little towns and villages along the old road instead.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018369#Comment_120018369

The X4 stopped at the end of October.

https://buseireann.ie/bus_eireann_news.php?id=6577&month=Oct