Air BnB to be effectively banned for non PPR

Graham

mickeyk wrote: »

My understanding is that there will be no issue with renting your spare room as Airbnb was originally intended. Changing the use of your property from residential to fully commercial (i.e. short term letting) would require a change of use planning application. I’m not an expert on planning admittedly.

You're certainly more familiar than many.

gozunda

Graham wrote: »

Glossing over the planning requirements is what has many hosts concerned about the proposals.

In many cases it is evident that current planning regulations do not prohibit a range of letting arrangements.The scope for enforcement by county council's is also very narrow.
Whether the present rush to change the current status quo really has to do with concerns with 'planning permission' requirements or is a sop is an entirely different matter imo

gozunda

mickeyk wrote: »

I would suggest comments rabbiting on about communism and protecting our tourism industry are even less credible.My understanding is that there will be no issue with renting your spare room as Airbnb was originally intended. Changing the use of your property from residential to fully commercial (i.e. short term letting) would require a change of use planning application. I’m not an expert on planning admittedly.

Nope I made no comment re 'protecting our tourism industry' - other poster thataway =>

Whilst evidently only reading some parts and not others - you've missed the main point there.

There are a slew of comments about the present planning regulations which incorrectly make out that all airbnb hosts are breaking the law yada yada yada. I pointed out that is not correct.

As for those that you missed who believe that anyone earning a penny or more renting are evil capitalists vs good communism etc - that speaks for itself..

What the change in regulations will bring - your guess us as good as any ...

Graham

gozunda wrote: »

In many cases it is evident that current planning regulations do not prohibit a range of letting arrangements.

From the document you linked to earlier:

Planning permission is normally only required for short term lettings if a material change of use has occurred. This is likely to be the case where the sole or dominant use of a property is for short term letting.

That's pretty unambiguous.

gozunda

Graham wrote: »

Surely you mean the ones that have moved out of renting into the tourism business?

I referred to that which others detailed ...

Graham wrote: »

From the document you linked to earlier:
That's pretty unambiguous.

Yeah sure - take a read of the entire documents to see exactly how 'pretty unambiguous' it is ...

I'll copy it if you like ...

The_Honeybadger

gozunda wrote: »

In many cases it is evident that current planning regulations do not prohibit a range of letting arrangements.The scope for enforcement by county council's is also very narrow.
Whether the current rush to change the current status quo really has to do with concerns with 'planning permission' requirements or is a sop is an entirely different matter imo

The rush to change the status quo is nothing to do with planning you are correct. It is an effort to arrest a growing issue in the housing market where more and more housing stock is unavailable for general housing. The issue is serious enough to drive change in the planning regulations, for example any property available for short term let for more than 90-120 days needs planning. This would allow student accommodation to be offered for short term letting during the busier summer months without a planning change for example.

Graham

gozunda wrote: »

I referred to that which others detailed ...

You mean the ones that are unlikely to be effected then, the genuine participants in the sharing economy. The ones that nobody appears to have any objections to?

Those?

gozunda

Graham wrote: »

You mean the ones that are unlikely to be effected then, the genuine participants in the sharing economy. The ones that nobody appears to have any objections to?
Those?

No - please read the relevant posts replied to ...

Here's a nice example of the 'evil nasty capitalists' apparently hated by some that you missed

Mr.H wrote:

Renting your house out is not supposed to gain profit. It is a long term investment allowing you to sell the house when you retire. Of course greedy landlords forget to think about the amount they sell for in the later years.Greed

But If you would like to rewrite my comments as above - please feel free to do so ...

Graham

gozunda wrote: »

Tbh the whole PP issue is largely a smokescreen afaics

I don't expect planning enforcement to have much of a part in the implementation of any changes so in that regard you may view it as a smokescreen.

Those AirBnB hosts with the full planning for short-term letting will most likely find they can continue to operate as is, all be it in a marketplace with less competition.
Those sharing rooms in their homes or occasionally renting their own home out probably won't notice any changes.
Those full-time (commercial) operators without planning are likely to find the new limitations commercially unsustainable.

It has to happen, otherwise commercial operators will continue to pluck off prime residential accommodation. Property prices (sale and rental) will continue to be driven up by tourism and local residents of all types will be driven to the periphery of our cities. None of that is desirable or sustainable.

KyussB

Finally. This has taken far too long to happen. I remember first posting threads about this here years ago, and when (almost two years ago!) it was ruled in court that planning permission was required, seeing many people say that they didn't give a toss about planning-permission/the-law, so long as they didn't see any enforcement.

Absolute disgrace that it's been allowed to drag on this long. I hope the people who've taken advantage get retrospectively hit by Revenue and/or the local authorities.

Lantus

awec wrote:

Turning a residential property into a business (in this case a hotel) is detrimental in two ways. One it's awful for Ireland's property market and a massive problem when there is a housing crisis and two it impacts negatively on neighbours and nearby residents.

Can you link to the data that supports this massive problem and the negative impacts you mention. I'd like to review it, thanks.

Technocentral

Pkiernan wrote: »

Unreal, but the communists appear to have gotten their way.
No more Air BnB unless you rent a room in your own dwelling.

Can't understand how FG thinks this will help them come election time.

http://www.thejournal.ie/airbnb-regulations-ireland-3-4259732-Sep2018/

Great news, it originally was for spare rooms in your house/apartment not for stag parties disrupting peoples lives. Common sense, **** all to do with communism.

Wanderer78

Technocentral wrote:

Great news, it originally was for spare rooms in your house/apartment not for stag parties disrupting peoples lives. Common sense, **** all to do with communism.

Communism! Some drama queens around here!

tHE vAGGABOND

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Communism! Some drama queens around here!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yes, that is 100% what communism is. You have hit the nail on the head.

Let us leave the folks homeless or living in those horrible "3 single mattresses on a floor" rooms - while we let some folks make fortunes. Let the market dictate matters, like in Dickensian London.

....Oh, I hope all those AirBnB hosts are tax compliant. I did it a couple of times in 2014 & 2015, [as an owner-occupier of an apartment it happens, to help build a house deposit]. After a couple of pain in the arse guests, I stopped. I finally got a letter from the revenue only last week. It was just a general "we got your name from AirBnB" circular. I only got tax compliant last year [after selling the place], had not put aside the tax money at the time *at all* - at time it was "free money" - wonder how many folks have done it for a while and done same.

No longer own that place & with kids now would never do it - even less so if I had to get a licence and stuff!

gozunda

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yes, that is 100% what communism is. You have hit the nail on the head.
Let us leave the folks homeless or living in those horrible "3 single mattresses on a floor" rooms - while we let some folks make fortunes. Let the market dictate matters, like in Dickensian London.
...

Same as resorting to the absurd by using the old fallacy of extremes argument

See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Regarding tax there is always the extreme danger that everyone else behaves the same way some do ...

LiamoSail

KyussB wrote: »

Finally. This has taken far too long to happen. I remember first posting threads about this here years ago, and when (almost two years ago!) it was ruled in court that planning permission was required, seeing many people say that they didn't give a toss about planning-permission/the-law, so long as they didn't see any enforcement.

Absolute disgrace that it's been allowed to drag on this long. I hope the people who've taken advantage get retrospectively hit by Revenue and/or the local authorities.

I'm in favour of the new regulations, however I don't think criticism of anyone on the basis of ignoring planning regulations is all that fair.

Planning, particularly in Dublin, has been largely corrupt with both Dublin City Council and successive FF Governmennts guilty as per the Gilmartin Tribunal. I'd hardly fault someone for having nil regard to a corrupt process, or for failing to comply with the stipulations of a corrupt body, particularly when there was no enforcement.

Couple this with the ongoing issues LLs face with tenants over holding etc, and it's easy to see why anyone would choose the Airbnb route.

Samuel T. Cogley

Just on renting in a PPR, who is actually going to do that? RAR is far less hassle and far more lucrative. I suppose you can be in control and only do it weekends or what not but the amount you'd lose in tax for that convienance...

Samuel T. Cogley

Wanderer78 wrote: »

the market is moving towards equilibrium, so some patience is required during this process

In terms of supply that's going to take years, I assume that's what you refer to. The stagnation of prices at the top end is not going to help apartment prices at the bottom end or do anything to curtail rents.

LiamoSail

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Just on renting in a PPR, who is actually going to do that? RAR is far less hassle and far more lucrative. I suppose you can be in control and only do it weekends or what not but the amount you'd lose in tax for that convienance...

People going on holidays can rent their entire place

Graham

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Just on renting in a PPR, who is actually going to do that? RAR is far less hassle and far more lucrative. I suppose you can be in control and only do it weekends or what not but the amount you'd lose in tax for that convienance...

Interesting question.

Who is actually going to share in the sharing economy.

Other cities/countries that have introduced similar restrictions still have supply of rooms on AirBnB and the like, all be it in reduced numbers,

Samuel T. Cogley

Graham wrote: »

Interesting question.

Who is actually going to share in the sharing economy.

Other cities/countries that have introduced similar restrictions still have supply of rooms on AirBnB and the like, all be it in reduced numbers,

Do they have RAR though? I think that's the key here. RAR means that if you can get €500 a month from a room you effectively need to get €1000 a month from AirBnB plus all the additional work.

victor8600

Pkiernan wrote: »

Unreal, but the communists appear to have gotten their way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U06jlgpMtQs

Or may be it was not communists, but the hotel owning bourgeoisie who wants less competition?

Graham

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Do they have RAR though?

Believe it or not, there are still quite a few Irish AirBnB sharers despite RAR.

One would assume these people are aware of RAR but have still opted for sharing.

KyussB

LiamoSail wrote: »

I'm in favour of the new regulations, however I don't think criticism of anyone on the basis of ignoring planning regulations is all that fair.

Planning, particularly in Dublin, has been largely corrupt with both Dublin City Council and successive FF Governmennts guilty as per the Gilmartin Tribunal. I'd hardly fault someone for having nil regard to a corrupt process, or for failing to comply with the stipulations of a corrupt body, particularly when there was no enforcement.

Couple this with the ongoing issues LLs face with tenants over holding etc, and it's easy to see why anyone would choose the Airbnb route.

If this regulation regarding short term lets has come about due to government corruption, do please enlighten us? Otherwise, you don't have any moral/ethical argument, that absolves people for breaking the law here.

LuckyLloyd

Lantus wrote: »

Airbnb is a great example of innovation in an otherwise stagnant status quo sector.

It has nothing to do with the disfunction of the housing market and instead was trying to find better ways to move forwards and provide solutions.

Banning Airbnb is a shocking curtailment of personal freedom and liberty. It won't make any difference to housing availability because the core underlying conditions remain unchanged.

It's communist economics under the banner of helping people. Governments are banning uber, my taxi and Airbnb in a few places. They don't like cost effective solutions that provide a really good service eroding state backed industries that need protection to survive.

Ah yes, AirBnB and Uber - those bastions of personal freedom and liberty. I find it amazing how these companies work on selling themselves to their staff and those profiting off their services all over the world. Disruption! Progress! Innovation! Move with the times, man. Anyone who highlights the negative impacts with our business model are communists.

Curtailing the essential re-purposing of residential accommodation to hotel rooms in conflict with existing PPR will not solve the housing crisis - but it's still the right thing to do in of itself. If there were no housing crisis it would still be a correct thing to do. PPR exist for a reason, people shouldn't have to suffer their apartment block becoming a hotel overnight, just as they shouldn't have to suffer it becoming a welding shop or an office or whatever other changes of essential use that people would object to.

And - even if it won't solve the crisis - it is one of many potential actions that will alleviate it. After this change is made the government still needs to address issues with supply in the market; and it still should bring in changes to expedite justified evictions, etc. But it is obviously silly to try and argue against this measure because there are other components to a complex and nuanced problem - whataboutery and nothing more tbh.

BarryD2

I must be missing something here. What's the difference between Air BnB type letting and the traditional holiday letting of houses near the coast say? Just different means of advertising & selling a short term letting. How can you ban one without banning the other? Pls excuse my ignorance.

Tar.Aldarion

Great to see some regulation in the area, especially after seeing some friends strong-handed from their accommodation (that they were paying a lot for) so that the landlord could convert the whole apartment block to airbnb lets.

LiamoSail

KyussB wrote: »

If this regulation regarding short term lets has come about due to government corruption, do please enlighten us? Otherwise, you don't have any moral/ethical argument, that absolves people for breaking the law here.

I never said that.

I said historically, much of the planning in Dublin City was a result of a corrupt process. See the Gilmartin tribunal. There was extensive corruption uncovered involving successive FF Governments and Dublin City council. For this reason, it's perhaps understandable why people have little regard for the planning laws in this country. Why adhere to a corrupt process when there is no enforcement?

My point doesn't relate to these new Airbnb laws, but the existing planning in the city

Lolle06

titan18 wrote: »

I'm 29, still live at home, and can't afford a house and I'm against it. It's easy to be against something when it's short-sighted, populist and does nothing to solve the actual issues.

Time and time again has it been shown that more regulation has caused more issues to the housing market here. All it does it drive landlords from the market which pushes rents up as there's less competition.

That‘s the crux though isn’t it?

Some time ago, our long-term landlord was about to claim his house for himself as his marriage was on the brink... and I immediatly checked the rental market in our area : 3 houses were available for long-term rent (1 of them only for 9 months) and 9 were offered as Airbnb accommodation!
4 of these houses used to be long-term rentals on the open market, but because the landlords would make more money over Airbnb, than renting them long-term, they weren’t available to us anymore!

Now, I would consider us good tenants - we look after the house, don’t hassle our LL, pay on time, have well-behaved kids who help out the elderly neighbors in with garden work etc. - but we still have to compete with other tenants in the same position for the available accommodation, so naturally the applicant with the deepest pockets would win that competition - which isn’t necessarily a family, but a professional couple.

We both work, but homelessness is a real possibility for our family - because
not everyone has parents or family available to stay with either.

We were very fortunate that our LL got his marriage back on track again, but I won’t deny that we had many sleepless nights during that time and I never again want to find myself and my family in this situation!

I am so relieved that we are in the position of purchasing our own home soon and I will thank our lucky stars, to be finally out of the rental market.

Regulating short-term or holiday lets is important - especially during a housing shortage, but I‘d agree that the Government has to step up when it comes to penalizing „bad“ or „rogue“ tenants and offering LL some form of incentive for long-term rentals also.

tHE vAGGABOND

Im too lazy to recycle this - but this is a link to tweet is by someone I know in real life and someone who knows about this area.

This image shows 5038 entire house/apartment on Airbnb #Dublin lettings - as of late June this year.

Last June the figure was 4581, so 457 entire house/apartment were added to AIRBNB since then which is a 10% increase and we wonder why there's a national housing crisis in Ireland.

Even if half or 2/3's of that 5038 full units on AirBnB are put onto the rental market now it makes things a fair bit better IMHO