Air BnB to be effectively banned for non PPR

Pkiernan

Unreal, but the communists appear to have gotten their way.
No more Air BnB unless you rent a room in your own dwelling.

Can't understand how FG thinks this will help them come election time.

http://www.thejournal.ie/airbnb-regulations-ireland-3-4259732-Sep2018/

TBi

Brilliant. Get these houses back on the market for people to buy and not blatantly profit off!

Hogzy

Banning short term lets from non PPR homes makes perfect sense. Short term lets are massively pushing the price of rental property through the roof.

Sure some of the landlords are going to bitch and moan about it because their easy money scheme comes to an end. They'll just have to get a long-term tenant in. Landlord gets paid and society gets reasonable rent rates.

I just bought a property, Mortgage is 1,300 per month and my valuation report put the potential market rental price at 2,300 per month. That is absolutely crazy!!!!!

Senature

This is absolutely essential. B&Bs, hotels etc are regulated, air bnb type lets should be no different. Housing is there to provide homes for residents, not beds for tourists. Landlords who are put out by this need to lobby the government for both being allowed more leeway on rent levels and better rights/recourse/compensation etc in relation to non paying tenants or those who cause damage rather than complaining about this legislation.

goat2

When did this come into effect, there are a lot of people using the extra house they used to rent before Air B and B now using them for air B and B

Wildly Boaring

So regulate air bnb in Dublin and that'll free up extra space?

1. Lovely keep it in Dublin.

2. Hotel prices to go up more. Appear to be the only beneficiaries

3. Space is finite. So get rid of these and people move elsewhere. Theoretically it will have no affect. May open a few rentals or maybe these will sell. But conversely the people who were in them now need to be elsewhere.

4. More regulation. Just what we need here

Pkiernan

Mr.S wrote: »

100% needed.

Sure, it sucks for the landlords who are making a killing letting entire homes week to week on Airbnb, but it's not sustainable.

Shocking that you think its okay for governement to dictate what i can do with my property just because they won't do the right thing and build homes.

I'm lucky that my unit is mortgage free. It'll remain empty now.

I've never gouged a tenant and just had one leave that cost me 17000 euro in unpaid rent and damage. That was 4 years post tax rental income.

No way I'll rent it again. I'll leave it empty and watch it appreciate and not have to worry about overholding tenants.

Graham

Pkiernan wrote: »

Shocking that you think its okay for governement to dictate what i can do with my property just because they won't do the right thing and build homes.

When you purchased the property was it on the basis that it had planning permission for short-term holiday lettings or a domestic dwelling?

Teyla Emmagan

That's far too extreme. Have you seen the price of hotel rooms in Dublin? They are already eye watering. And we already apparently have a shortage of hotel beds in the city.

The government needs to build more homes!! That's the end of it. Or we need to change the current system which is so weighted against the landlord, thus making Airbnb an attractive alternative! Pushing the problem onto the private rental sector is not the answer here.

Twenty Grand

Hogzy wrote: »

Banning short term lets from non PPR homes makes perfect sense. Short term lets are massively pushing the price of rental property through the roof.

Sure some of the landlords are going to bitch and moan about it because their easy money scheme comes to an end. They'll just have to get a long-term tenant in. Landlord gets paid and society gets reasonable rent rates.

I just bought a property, Mortgage is 1,300 per month and my valuation report put the potential market rental price at 2,300 per month. That is absolutely crazy!!!!!

Yep, and you'll pay 50% of that in tax. So you'll be out of pocket by €150 a month in mortgage for a house you can't live in and unknown euro a month if your tenants decide not to bother paying rent, or to damage the house.

There's plenty of threads here showing that renting houses is not the money maker that people think.

Hogzy

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Yep, and you'll pay 50% of that in tax. So you'll be out of pocket by €150 a month in mortgage for a house you can't live in and unknown euro a month if your tenants decide not to bother paying rent, or to damage the house.

There's plenty of threads here showing that renting houses is not the money maker that people think.

Well the house is my family home so that doesnt apply to me.

My suggestion to people is not to buy a house if youre going to rent it with a huge mortgage...The situation you go through above is a prime example of someone who cant afford t keep a property.

You dont have an entitlement to make a profit out of your property that is rented and mortgaged. Youre treating it as a business.

Pkiernan

Graham wrote: »

When you purchased the property was it on the basis that it had planning permission for short-term holiday lettings or a domestic dwelling?

Has planning for holiday lettings.

Tell me again why the government won't build houses???

Graham

Pkiernan wrote: »

Has planning for holiday lettings.

So you should have no problems.

There's no suggestion existing (planning compliant) holiday lettings are going to be removed from the market.

Caranica

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

That's far too extreme. Have you seen the price of hotel rooms in Dublin? They are already eye watering. And we already apparently have a shortage of hotel beds in the city.

The government needs to build more homes!! That's the end of it. Or we need to change the current system which is so weighted against the landlord, thus making Airbnb an attractive alternative! Pushing the problem onto the private rental sector is not the answer here.

There's a massive amount of hotel building going on at the moment and hotels are expensive because they're full of people who can't get rental accommodation. I'm 100% behind this move.

I say that as a former landlord whose property was wrecked by tenants, selling was a very happy day.

Airbnb is banned in cities all over the world, this is not Ireland going on a solo run

enricoh

Many tourists won't pay Dublin hotel prices and air bnb helped make it affordable to them.
I guess Dublin's loss will be Belfasts or Edinburghs gain.
Who needs tourists spending money in the country when we can corner the market in the forever home brigade instead!
I think Ross is putting back up the tax on hotel rooms as well, that should help deter a few more tourists too!

Hogzy

Unreal to see all the tourism experts on here. They must have put hours of research into tourism spending habits, affordability etc in multiple cities in Europe as well as Dublin. Fair play to ye lads!

Graham

enricoh wrote: »

Many tourists won't pay Dublin hotel prices and air bnb helped make it affordable to them.

I don't think "lads we're going to kick 3,000 of you out of your homes to make room for a few more LoCo flights of budget tourists" was ever a sound strategic policy for housing or tourism.

Pkiernan

Hogzy wrote: »

Unreal to see all the tourism experts on here. They must have put hours of research into tourism spending habits, affordability etc in multiple cities in Europe as well as Dublin. Fair play to ye lads!

<snip>

Mod
Attack the post.

Twenty Grand

Hogzy wrote: »

Unreal to see all the tourism experts on here. They must have put hours of research into tourism spending habits, affordability etc in multiple cities in Europe as well as Dublin. Fair play to ye lads!

Hows your PhD research into the housing trends of Ireland and how AirBnB is the root if all evil?

noodler

Pkiernan wrote: »

Shocking that you think its okay for governement to dictate what i can do with my property just because they won't do the right thing and build homes.

I'm lucky that my unit is mortgage free. It'll remain empty now.

I've never gouged a tenant and just had one leave that cost me 17000 euro in unpaid rent and damage. That was 4 years post tax rental income.

No way I'll rent it again. I'll leave it empty and watch it appreciate and not have to worry about overholding tenants.

Sure you will!

Hogzy

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Hows your PhD research into the housing trends of Ireland and how AirBnB is the root if all evil?

Fantastic! Iv come to the conclusion that the sense of entitlement out of some property owners in this country is staggering. Ill publish my findings in due course. PM me your address and ill send you a copy!

Varik

Still probably worth it to have it on air b & b and leave it empty most of the year.

All they're doing is adding another front to crisis; buyers, renters, and now the 640k tourists.

Just to drive the last few nails in with dedicated student accommodation.

JohnnyFlash

Pkiernan wrote: »

Has planning for holiday lettings.

Tell me again why the government won't build houses???

They are building houses. We had a major recession and building ground to a halt. Stopping short term lettings is an entirely positive delevlopment and will go some way to increasing rental supply. If a few greedy landlords are out of pocket then so be it. Their obsession with money is destroying the city. Boo boo.

Graham

Mod Note:

Please folks.

Opposing opinions and reasoned debate are more than welcome.

Snide digs, personal attacks are not.

Graham

Varik wrote: »

Still probably worth it to have it on air b & b and leave it empty most of the year.

That may not be an option for anyone currently letting an investment property via AirBnB.

Obviously there's not much detail out there yet but there are indicators it will only be permitted if it's the hosts PPR.

Twenty Grand

Hogzy wrote: »

Fantastic! Iv come to the conclusion that the sense of entitlement out of some property owners in this country is staggering. Ill publish my findings in due course. PM me your address and ill send you a copy!

The arrogance of those property owners! Believing they should have some say over how an asset they own should be used! How dare they!! :pac:

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

They are building houses. We had a major recession and building ground to a halt. Stopping short term lettings is an entirely positive delevlopment and will go some way to increasing rental supply. If a few greedy landlords are out of pocket then so be it. Their obsession with money is destroying the city. Boo boo.

I am constantly surprised by the absolute delusion of some posts here, where people with no knowledge or understanding can't see past their own prejudices and come up with claptrap like this.

Varik

Graham wrote: »

Varik wrote: »

Still probably worth it to have it on air b & b and leave it empty most of the year.

That may not be an option for anyone currently letting an investment property via AirBnB.

Obviously there's not much detail out there yet but there are indicators it will only be permitted if it's the hosts PPR.

Article says otherwise.

Subcomandante Marcos

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

That's far too extreme. Have you seen the price of hotel rooms in Dublin? They are already eye watering. And we already apparently have a shortage of hotel beds in the city.

The government needs to build more homes!! That's the end of it. Or we need to change the current system which is so weighted against the landlord, thus making Airbnb an attractive alternative! Pushing the problem onto the private rental sector is not the answer here.

Good thing there's a arse ton of hotels being built or pending having been granted PP in Dublin at the minute so.

If the tourism sector has a supply and demand issue let them address it themselves through purpose built units. Units built as housing under their planning permission should be used as housing.

zell12

When will Revenue move to extract tax from the Airbnb lettings?
And when will Councils enforce the planning change of use regulations?
They've had years.

Hogzy

Twenty Grand wrote: »

The arrogance of those property owners! Believing they should have some say over how an asset they own should be used! How dare they!! :pac:

If your property has planning for holiday lettings then you are fine. Having a house solely dedicated to Airbnb's without proper planning permission is illegal. So yes, some landlords are being arrogant and entitled by thinking they can flagrantly ignore community planning rules by allowing their property to be let in such a way.

If you are unable to afford the mortgage payments then sell the property! I dont understand this mindset that if you mortgage a house and rent it you are somehow entitled to break even or profit from such a venture! What gives you this right???

If costs of housing goes up, salaries must go up. If salaries go up then the costs of doing business goes up, that cost of business is pushed on to the consumer. Economics 101 lads, its in all our interests to see lower rental rates in the country. Salaries have not seen the growth that housing costs have in the previous 5 years.

Twenty Grand

Hogzy wrote: »

If your property has planning for holiday lettings then you are fine. Having a house solely dedicated to Airbnb's without proper planning permission is illegal. So yes, some landlords are being arrogant and entitled by thinking they can flagrantly ignore community planning rules by allowing their property to be let in such a way.

If you are unable to afford the mortgage payments then sell the property! I dont understand this mindset that if you mortgage a house and rent it you are somehow entitled to break even or profit from such a venture! What gives you this right???

There's no right to make a profit. But it's not wrong to make a profit.
In fact it's a requirement for any business.

enricoh

Hogzy wrote: »

Unreal to see all the tourism experts on here. They must have put hours of research into tourism spending habits, affordability etc in multiple cities in Europe as well as Dublin. Fair play to ye lads!

Maybe one as learned as yourself could provide some imput on the following.
Air bnb gets banned - less competition for hotels - price of hotels goes up - tourists look elsewhere for better value.
Your wisdom is greatly appreciated.
Not to worry about filling hotels in Dublin though, the government is flat out paying for rooms for Roma gypsies that turn up and ​declare as homeless! Free hotel on us. Sod the tourists and their money!

Hogzy

enricoh wrote: »

Maybe one as learned as yourself could provide some imput on the following.
Air bnb gets banned - less competition for hotels - price of hotels goes up - tourists look elsewhere for better value.

Its not getting banned. It seems to be suggested that only properties that are not principle private residences and do not have the requiste planning permission for short term lets are going to be prevented from letting on airbnb. They can still take in a long term tenant.

Not to worry about filling hotels in Dublin though, the government is flat out paying for rooms for Roma gypsies that turn up and declare as homeless!

Do you have examples of this occurring ad nausem or is it just was it just a rare occasion that you are now using to argue as the norm?

Twenty Grand wrote: »

There's no right to make a profit. But it's not wrong to make a profit.
In fact it's a requirement for any business.

Totally agree with you. But such a profit should be made without breaking the law (ie. planning legislation).

Graham

Varik wrote: »

Article says otherwise.

Much of the discussion is about the "Toronto model":

3. HOST = OPERATOR = PRINCIPAL RESIDENCE
What Airbnb calls a “host,” the city calls an operator. The point is, if you’re renting your home it has to be your principal residence.

Bigmac1euro

enricoh wrote: »

Maybe one as learned as yourself could provide some imput on the following.
Air bnb gets banned - less competition for hotels - price of hotels goes up - tourists look elsewhere for better value.
Your wisdom is greatly appreciated.
Not to worry about filling hotels in Dublin though, the government is flat out paying for rooms for Roma gypsies that turn up and ​declare as homeless! Free hotel on us. Sod the tourists and their money!

How do you think we managed without Airbnb In the first place ?
Ireland will always attract tourism. Have you ever been to Dublin City centre ? It’s more important that we get more rental properties on the market not less of them through Airbnb and have a few tourists to spend on a few pints of Guinness. I’m not trying to be rude here but I really don’t understand where your coming from on this.

Sleeper12

zell12 wrote:

When will Revenue move to extract tax from the Airbnb lettings? And when will Councils enforce the planning change of use regulations? They've had years.

Revenue get notified by Airbnb of how much they pay each individual landlord. Revenue get every single penny owed from Airbnb landlords. There is no room to fiddle this income. It's was the only socially positive thing about Airbnb.

LotharIngum

Hogzy wrote: »

I dont understand this mindset that if you mortgage a house and rent it you are somehow entitled to break even or profit from such a venture! What gives you this right???

I know in my case I have been chugging along letting property for almost 2 decades. There were bad times and good times and you would think they should even out over the long term.
The problem now is that the might of the state keeps sticking their oar in over and over again to hurt anyone letting. And they just keep doing it.

I had had enough earlier this year, but there are people who were sticking it out. I bet they will all be out the door now. And no one in their right minds will be in to replace them.

Basically the normal property investor has been slowly but surely taken advantage of and been pushed out of the business.
Im just surprised there is anyone left in it at this stage.

Graham

Hogzy wrote: »

If your property has planning for holiday lettings then you are fine. Having a house solely dedicated to Airbnb's without proper planning permission is illegal. So yes, some landlords are being arrogant and entitled by thinking they can flagrantly ignore community planning rules by allowing their property to be let in such a way.

In fairness many landlords have taken a battering over the last 10 years, financially, legislatively and PR wise.

I can't blame a landlord for wanting to opt-out of the pretty one sided residential tenancy legislation and associated 'supports'.

At the same time, I think it would be a pretty naive property owner/investor that expected the current approach to AirBnB type lettings to continue unfettered.

Twenty Grand

LotharIngum wrote: »

I know in my case I have been chugging along letting property for almost 2 decades. There were bad times and good times and you would think they should even out over the long term.
The problem now is that the might of the state keeps sticking their oar in over and over again to hurt anyone letting. And they just keep doing it.

I had had enough earlier this year, but there are people who were sticking it out. I bet they will all be out the door now. And no one in their right minds will be in to replace them.

Basically the normal property investor has been slowly but surely taken advantage of and been pushed out of the business.
Im just surprised there is anyone left in it at this stage.

Vulture funds and property management agencies will be the only ones left.

Most of the landlords I know are only in the position because it doesn't suit them to sell.

enricoh

Do you have examples of this occurring ad nausem or is it just was it just a rare occasion that you are now using to argue as the norm?



[/quote]in all the charity referred families on 46 occasions that month. Nine of the families were Romanian nationals; 15 were Irish, including eight from the Travelling community; and three were from outside the European Union.

Maybe we should be promoting Ireland as a holiday destination a lot more in Romania. Seems to have great potential for us!

Peatys

Pkiernan wrote: »

Unreal, but the communists appear to have gotten their way.
No more Air BnB unless you rent a room in your own dwelling.

Can't understand how FG thinks this will help them come election time.

http://www.thejournal.ie/airbnb-regulations-ireland-3-4259732-Sep2018/

Happy days. House joined on to me won't be an unlicenced hotel any more. Who's responsible so i can make sure to get them some votes come election time?

LotharIngum

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Vulture funds and property management agencies will be the only ones left.

Most of the landlords I know are only in the position because it doesn't suit them to sell.

True. I have stopped letting but not sold because it doesn't suit me.
Letting is far too risky now. And the red tape and potential downside is horrible.

I was keeping it for kids going to college in the next few years and as a crash pad for when im in Dublin or my friends are in Dublin at the moment.
I was at one point thinking of doing Airbnb as a sideline but decided not to.
I do love Airbnb and use it all the time rather than hotels now when traveling.

There are other options though to make money from the property and Ive been going with one of them since the start of the year, but I am never letting it again under current conditions for sure.

Ginger83

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Vulture funds and property management agencies will be the only ones left.

Most of the landlords I know are only in the position because it doesn't suit them to sell.

Those that can sell will sell, others will claim PPR.

It will make NO difference to rental sector.

titan18

You'd have to be pretty naive to think that banning AirBnb will result in these houses going back into the rental market. Most will just be sold at this stage. There's no business model there for a small scale landlord, and government ends up losing out on tax as the larger scale ones don't pay the same tax.

Genius move by the clowns in government.

zell12

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Revenue get notified by Airbnb of how much they pay each individual landlord. Revenue get every single penny owed from Airbnb landlords. There is no room to fiddle this income. It's was the only socially positive thing about Airbnb.

Not yet though
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revenue-warns-12000-hosts-pay-tax-on-airbnb-income-or-face-courts-37331984.html

Graham

Ginger83 wrote: »

Those that can sell will sell, others will claim PPR.

Devil will be in the detail.

Trying to claim PPR on multiple properties could have 'unintended' consequences regarding a property investors own home.

wally79

titan18 wrote: »

You'd have to be pretty naive to think that banning AirBnb will result in these houses going back into the rental market. Most will just be sold at this stage. There's no business model there for a small scale landlord, and government ends up losing out on tax as the larger scale ones don't pay the same tax.

Genius move by the clowns in government.

Wont the people who buy these houses will be out of the rental market then

So either available rental properties go up or number of people looking to rent goes down

Bigmac1euro

titan18 wrote: »

You'd have to be pretty naive to think that banning AirBnb will result in these houses going back into the rental market. Most will just be sold at this stage. There's no business model there for a small scale landlord, and government ends up losing out on tax as the larger scale ones don't pay the same tax.

Genius move by the clowns in government.

Even if they are sold it’s another family housed, people seem to forget this all the time.
Another family who buys is a family less on the rental market.

titan18

wally79 wrote:

Wont the people who buy these houses will be out of the rental market then

Not everyone renting can afford a house (id imagine vast majority renting can't tbh) so where do you expect those people to go.

wally79

titan18 wrote: »

Not everyone renting can afford a house (id imagine vast majority renting can't tbh) so where do you expect those people to go.

They will still rent. They weren’t likely to be using air bnb properties anyway

wirelessdude01

Wonder what happens where someone already has bookings taken on AirBnB for next summer?