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End of #metoo

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    #452
    Bigbagofcans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Bigbagofcans


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    I want people to stand up for themselves, as opposed to forever making excuses as to why they can't, which is what is going on here. I can't, I can't, I can't.

    I stand up for myself in a bar whenever a creepy guy has mauled me, but if I'm standing by myself at a bus stop and a group of lads jeer and make derogatory remarks I wouldn't feel safe enough to say anything.


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    #453
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    I want people to stand up for themselves, as opposed to forever making excuses as to why they can't, which is what is going on here. I can't, I can't, I can't.

    It's not cowardice to put personal safety first....


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    #454
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    It would depend on a number of factors obviously, but in general, genuinely, yes I would. And yes I'm aware it is easy for me to say that, but I do understand the point you are making. You don't have to "stride over and demand he stop", walk over and be calm. It depends on the situation I'll admit. A man is very unlikely to hit a woman, more so if he's with his mates.

    Look, I'm aware that the onus is on the bloke to not do it in the first place. But you can't keep on coming up with excuses to not do something about it yourself.
    Bigbagofcans wrote: »
    I stand up for myself in a bar whenever a creepy guy has mauled me, but if I'm standing by myself at a bus stop and a group of lads jeer and make derogatory remarks I wouldn't feel safe enough to say anything.

    So we have reached an agreement, even though seemingly we were never in disagreement.

    Fair enough to the second part, but you'd be extremely unlucky if they turned violent.


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    #455
    Bigbagofcans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Bigbagofcans


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    So we have reached an agreement, even though seemingly we were never in disagreement.

    Fair enough to the second part, but you'd be extremely unlucky if they turned violent.

    Those are my own personal views/experiences though. Everyone is different so I wouldn't expect everyone to be able to stand up for themselves.

    It took me years to muster up the courage to stand up to these creeps who grab me on nights out.


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    #456
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Bigbagofcans wrote: »
    Those are my own personal views/experiences though. Everyone is different so I wouldn't expect everyone to be able to stand up for themselves.

    It took me years to muster up the courage to stand up to these creeps who grab me on nights out.

    What stopped you, or what changed?

    And what reactions did you get, have any of them physically assaulted you? And again genuine questions.


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    #457
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    batgoat wrote: »
    It's not cowardice to put personal safety first....

    Fair enough, coward was the wrong word. Meekness then.


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    #458
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    Fair enough, coward was the wrong word. Meekness then.

    So basically any word that you can use to denigrate the woman who is subject to it...


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    #459
    Bigbagofcans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Bigbagofcans


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    What stopped you, or what changed?

    And what reactions did you get, have any of them physically assaulted you? And again genuine questions.

    What stopped me before? Back then it was a general acceptance by girls that you were going to get your arse grabbed by some lads on nights out. It happened so often that I thought it was normal and I didn't want to create a scene by standing up to them.

    No none have physically assaulted me. The reactions I've gotten since standing up them are: they are either stunned into silence or they make a derogatory remark back.


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    #460
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    batgoat wrote: »
    So basically any word that you can use to denigrate the woman who is subject to it...

    Whatever. If you want to suggest that I'm trying to denigrate anyone, that's up to you. I want people to stand up for themselves as I've already said.


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    #461
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Adalynn Gray Putter wrote: »
    Do you say things like the above to your daughters?

    The gender pay gap thing is bollox but I don't believe either that women in their 20s and 30s out-earn men. Seems like a manipulated stat from the other direction. Why would women out-earn men during those years? I'd bet the reality is 50/50.

    My daughters already know that not all women are saints and angels through personal experience. In fact the worst problems so far my daughters have had with bullying and abusive behavour have been other girls. Although they both have been catcalled and groped on occasion by men.

    They outearn men because they have better qualifications on average. For example the vast majority of medical graduates are women.


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    #462
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    Whatever. If you want to suggest that I'm trying to denigrate anyone, that's up to you. I want people to stand up for themselves as I've already said.

    By risking personal safety by confronting a person you know the temperament of... Yes you are trying to paint the woman as if she's somehow at fault because she doesn't take that risk...


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    #463
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Bigbagofcans wrote: »
    What stopped me before? Back then it was a general acceptance by girls that you were going to get your arse grabbed by some lads on nights out. It happened so often that I thought it was normal and I didn't want to create a scene by standing up to them.

    No none have physically assaulted me. The reactions I've gotten since standing up them are: they are either stunned into silence or they make a derogatory remark back.

    Not sure what age you are but I'm glad times have changed.

    Ok, and I'm trying not engage in point scoring, but this is my point. They haven't gotten violent with you. And I ensure they thought twice about doing it again. If they did and the next woman said something, they wouldn't at all. If they keep getting called out they'll stop.

    And again, I'm aware it shouldn't happen in the first place.


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    #464
    leggo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    professore wrote: »
    They outearn men because they have better qualifications on average. For example the vast majority of medical graduates are women.

    But right, let’s say that’s true because I don’t have time to research, do men not have the same opportunity to get said medical degree? There’s no roadblocks in their way. That’s not an advantage, that’s equality at work. Equality in a capitalist society doesn’t mean everyone earns the same (that’s socialism), it means you’ve the same opportunities.

    Whereas the gender pay gap was caused because women were earning less than men for the exact same jobs, which I’m sure you can agree would be ridiculous if your daughter did the same position than some random person with a penis and he was paid more solely because he happened to have a penis. It’s night and day.


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    #465
    Bigbagofcans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Bigbagofcans


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    Not sure what age you are but I'm glad times have changed.

    Ok, and I'm trying not engage in point scoring, but this is my point. They haven't gotten violent with you. And I ensure they thought twice about doing it again. If they did and the next woman said something, they wouldn't at all. If they keep getting called out they'll stop.

    And again, I'm aware it shouldn't happen in the first place.

    I stand up to them now not just for myself but hopefully it'll prevent them mauling other women.


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    #466
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    meeeeh wrote: »
    There is some proof that out of college women out earn men, it all changes for majority of working life. It is also true that women are more successful getting university but they are not great converting it into senior positions at work (including universities or education). I'm all for equal opportunities, it would improve chances of young men but it would also affect the cushy position middle aged men have and that I suspect is what worries professore (it is his age/gender group that is benefiting above everyone in the current arrangement).

    They are not great at converting mainly because at some point they decide they want to have children. And once they have the children, many decide they need to be with those children at least part time. And this is a tradeoff. And the answer is not to enforce 50/50 childcare as quite a few women want to do this. As do a smaller amount of men. It should be a free choice.

    And personally I'm not scared, I run my own business, and it's far from cushy (despite posting on boards a lot I do work a lot) so it doesn't affect me. I work every day with very capable men and women. If some middle aged men in cushy positions lose their jobs to more competent women, great I say - although there are very few cushy jobs outside the public sector these days.


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    #467
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Bigbagofcans wrote: »
    I stand up to them now not just for myself but hopefully it'll prevent them mauling other women.

    And I'm happy you do. I wish more women would, as it'd be far more effective (at least in my opinion). I just felt that too many excuses to not do anything were being given, all assuming the absolute worst. I'm not trying to lay blame on the receiver or denigrate women as another poster suggested.


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    #468
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Bigbagofcans wrote: »
    I stand up for myself in a bar whenever a creepy guy has mauled me, but if I'm standing by myself at a bus stop and a group of lads jeer and make derogatory remarks I wouldn't feel safe enough to say anything.

    The thing is, those group of lads would make derogatory remarks to anyone they thought would be afraid of them, not just a woman. They are just scumbags. As would a group of similar women. It's not fair to tar all men with the actions of the likes of these.


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    #469
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    leggo wrote: »

    Whereas the gender pay gap was caused because women were earning less than men for the exact same jobs, which I’m sure you can agree would be ridiculous if your daughter did the same position than some random person with a penis and he was paid more solely because he happened to have a penis. It’s night and day.


    Incorrect. Absolutely incorrect and has been proven. If you a man, and I a woman, both work as managers for Acme Inc we will both get the same pay. What may happen is a lifetime deficit of female earnings because I might take time out to have a family and may not work as long hours as you by choice because it cuts into my actual time to have a life. It's not a gender ''pay'' gap, it's a gender EARNINGS gap, and is driven by choice. In the democratic capitalist world, I mean. It is different in parts of the world where there is actual discrimination.


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    #470
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    professore wrote: »
    The thing is, those group of lads would make derogatory remarks to anyone they thought would be afraid of them, not just a woman. They are just scumbags. As would a group of similar women. It's not fair to tar all men with the actions of the likes of these.

    My experience has been that I am equally if not more worried for my sons as for my daughter when it comes to predatory gangs of lads. They may catcall and make derogatory comments about a girl which is appalling and scary, but they may equally likely jump on a lone lad and hop his head off the path, which is also appalling and scary.


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    #471
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    Zorya wrote: »
    My experience has been that I am equally if not more worried for my sons as for my daughter when it comes to predatory gangs of lads. They may catcall and make derogatory comments about a girl which is appalling and scary, but they may equally likely jump on a lone lad and hop his head off the path, which is also appalling and scary.

    They also might physically attack your daughter. Or rape her. Or rape your son.


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    #472
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    Lux23 wrote: »
    They also might physically attack your daughter. Or rape her. Or rape your son.

    Yes.


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    #473
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    NObody is tarring all men with anything. People are tarring certain scumbags who happen to be male.


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    #474
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    Candie wrote: »
    NObody is tarring all men with anything. People are tarring certain scumbags who happen to be male.

    I also have a problem with the men (and women!) who don't challenge such behaviour when it is safe to do so. We can't change what these scumbags think and do, but we can try and stand up for their victims. And that's the whole point of this movement which seems to be completely lost on some people.


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    #475
    leggo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    Zorya wrote: »
    Incorrect. Absolutely incorrect and has been proven. If you a man, and I a woman, both work as managers for Acme Inc we will both get the same pay. What may happen is a lifetime deficit of female earnings because I might take time out to have a family and may not work as long hours as you by choice because it cuts into my actual time to have a life. It's not a gender ''pay'' gap, it's a gender EARNINGS gap, and is driven by choice. In the democratic capitalist world, I mean. It is different in parts of the world where there is actual discrimination.

    Tenses are important. ;)


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    #476
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    DanDan, now you are going off with the idea that women sit there meek as mice taking it. How do you think women have survived in this culture for years ? Newsflash - women have, do and are dealing with each situation as it happens taking safety into account in each situation eg many men have gotten a slap across the face. I have done that myself. Tbh I didn't even think, I just reacted. Then again it doesn't always end happily -eg that French girl,Marie Laguerre, minding her own business walking down a street in broad daylight & she told a guy when he was leering at her where to go. She dealt with it and got an ashtray thrown at her and a box in the head for good measure. I don't think most guys would do that but how do you know the difference. The French guy looked perfectly normal yet he was able to go to full rage mode in two seconds flat because she had the cheek not to go along with him. And after all, by definition guys who harass women have no respect for women, seem to think women are lesser beings, objects really who are there for their entertainment. Are they likely to turn into gentlemen because the inferior being (in their eyes) tells them off. We are not saying in a general sense that we don't deal with it but wouldn't it be wonderful if this kind of stuff was really frowned upon. This is what metoo is all about, to get a picture of how widespread this crap is in the lives of women.


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    #477
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    BBFAN wrote: »
    We do have degrees though?

    Not according to the feminazi brigade we don’t and that’s why I have such a problem with metoo now.

    The current wave of metoo, whether you like it or not, seems to determined to conflate a grab on the bum or a lewd comment with sexual assault and rape. You can’t honestly tell me that that’s acceptable.


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    #478
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Not according to the feminazi brigade we don’t and that’s why I have such a problem with metoo now.

    The current wave of metoo, whether you like it or not, seems to determined to conflate a grab on the bum or a lewd comment with sexual assault and rape. You can’t honestly tell me that that’s acceptable.

    It's not conflating the two. The movement quite rightly points out that rape, and someone grabbing your a**, are placed on a scale of sexual impropriety which includes verbal and physical assault. Again not a difficult concept to understand.


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    #479
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Lux23 wrote: »
    It's not conflating the two. The movement quite rightly points out that rape, and someone grabbing your a**, are placed on a scale of sexual impropriety which includes verbal and physical assault. Again not a difficult concept to understand.

    It might have at the beginning but not anymore. It’s now reached a point where you can be accused of being a sexual deviant after a bad date or because you asked for a woman’s number because she smiled at you and you were attracted to her.

    We’re also at a point where every time men try to comment on the subject they are torn to shreds.

    Metoo has long since lost it’s original meaning.


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    #480
    givyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Lux23 wrote: »
    It's not conflating the two. The movement quite rightly points out that rape, and someone grabbing your a**, are placed on a scale of sexual impropriety which includes verbal and physical assault. Again not a difficult concept to understand.

    You really must not be paying attention to #metoo then. Did you miss the outrage at folks who dared to suggest there was such a scale? Matt Damon ring any bells?

    Also, is the sniping (and misplaced) condescension really needed?


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    #481
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    DanDan, now you are going off with the idea that women sit there meek as mice taking it. How do you think women have survived in this culture for years ? Newsflash - women have, do and are dealing with each situation as it happens taking safety into account in each situation eg many men have gotten a slap across the face.

    Judging by some of the responses I received some women do seemingly just take it.
    Mrsmum wrote: »
    I have done that myself. Tbh I didn't even think, I just reacted. Then again it doesn't always end happily -eg that French girl,Marie Laguerre, minding her own business walking down a street in broad daylight & she told a guy when he was leering at her where to go. She dealt with it and got an ashtray thrown at her and a box in the head for good measure. I don't think most guys would do that but how do you know the difference. The French guy looked perfectly normal yet he was able to go to full rage mode in two seconds flat because she had the cheek not to go along with him. And after all, by definition guys who harass women have no respect for women, seem to think women are lesser beings, objects really who are there for their entertainment. Are they likely to turn into gentlemen because the inferior being (in their eyes) tells them off. We are not saying in a general sense that we don't deal with it but wouldn't it be wonderful if this kind of stuff was really frowned upon. This is what metoo is all about, to get a picture of how widespread this crap is in the lives of women.

    Firstly, good for you. Secondly, it is frowned upon, and with all due respect you are really stretching the definition of sexual harassment. If my mate randomly slapped a girls arse I wouldn't be high fiving him afterwards, but I also wouldn't think that he views women as lesser necessarily.

    I've seen the video of that instance you are referring to and it was quite disgusting. She was extremely unlucky. Most men would not react that way. Was he caught do you know?


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