End of #metoo

Sweetemotion

I always find male feminists creepy. Especially those who say "as a man" and then go on to tell us how great they are. Who then try to silence women, whose opinions differ from theirs.

givyjoe

leggo wrote: »

Do you have another conversation piece beyond “Are you comparing (whatever someone is talking about) to rape??” Change the record like. It’s been said multiple times to you in this thread, you’re the only one making weird comparisons here. It’s a bit mental tbh, sorry.

What's wrong, do you not like people challenging your points of view?

professore

I'm sorry but this is sexual harassment in 2018. Whatever about the other accusations there is no way this is sexual harassment.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Grayson wrote: »

I just read this today. It's about how people underestimate who widespread sexual harassment is


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/06/men-underestimate-level-of-sexual-harassment-against-women-survey

"The EU survey’s definition included unwelcome touching, sexually suggestive comments or jokes, staring or leering, being sent sexually explicit pictures or messages and indecent exposure among other forms of harassment."

I mean, look. If you feel someone staring at you is sexual harrassment then fair enough. But I'd have to completely disagree. If the standard as to what constitutes sexual harassment wasn't so low then the stats would be lower. I've been sent an sexually explicit pictures by a woman, was I sexual harrassed?

professore

I'm sorry but this is sexual harassment in 2018. Whatever about the other accusations there is no way this is sexual harassment.

leggo

Sweetemotion wrote: »

I always find male feminists creepy. Especially those who say "as a man" and then go on to tell us how great they are. Who then try to silence women, whose opinions differ from theirs.

Oh yawn, stop resting on such lazy arguments that sound good in your head but don’t actually show any understanding for the situation as it is. Where did I try silence her? I gave her a long arse post respectfully taking her point seriously and explaining where I differ. I said “As a man” in an earlier post not to give myself a false sense of authority (it wouldn’t anyway if I did that, you’d be damn sure it’d get picked on before now, fortunately most understood that), but to indicate that I could see and share a male viewpoint yet still felt a certain way. I’m not a feminist or an anything ‘-ist’, it’s gas I’ve also been accused of hating women on boards too because I’ve defended men on certain issues, because THAT’S how we understand issues in 2018: you’re either one side or the other, no way you just actually give a **** and looked at it from a neutral standpoint before arriving at a fair conclusion! “You have to have an agenda man, because I can’t argue with the logic of your posts so I’m just going to say that and it’ll sound nice and I’ll feel better!”

This isn’t a paternal split or a war, you don’t have to choose ‘sides’, you can feel one way about one issue and another about another if you care to actually look into the issues instead of seeing it as all black and white.

The reality is discourse on this site has gone to the dogs because of this gender wars ****e. Every single topic becomes a gender war, everyone is arguing for their own gender’s benefit and every issue seems to become “Well men/women have it worse!” There was a time here when you’d get a balanced and nuanced view of a subject because people would have shame and take a step back to look at a topic from a balanced POV taking the facts and evidence into account. I guess this is what ‘post-truth’ looks like. Black and white and everyone yelling instead of actually having a reasoned discussion with the common goal of reaching a consensus.

emptyhouse2222

leggo wrote: »

Oh yawn, stop resting on such lazy arguments that sound good in your head but don’t actually show any understanding for the situation as it is. Where did I try silence her? I gave her a long arse post respectfully taking her point seriously and explaining where I differ. I said “As a man” in an earlier post not to give myself a false sense of authority (it wouldn’t anyway if I did that, you’d be damn sure it’d get picked on before now, fortunately most understood that), but to indicate that I could see and share a male viewpoint yet still felt a certain way. I’m not a feminist or an anything ‘-ist’, it’s gas I’ve also been accused of hating women on boards too because I’ve defended men on certain issues, because THAT’S how we understand issues in 2018: you’re either one side or the other, no way you just actually give a **** and looked at it from a neutral standpoint before arriving at a fair conclusion!

This isn’t a paternal split or a war, you don’t have to choose ‘sides’, you can feel one way about one issue and another about another if you care to actually look into the issues instead of seeing it as all black and white.

The reality is discourse on this site has gone to the dogs because of this gender wars ****e. Every single topic becomes a gender war, everyone is arguing for their own gender’s benefit and every issue seems to become “Well men/women have it worse!” There was a time here when you’d get a balanced and nuanced view of a subject because people would have shame and take a step back to look at a topic from a balanced POV taking the facts and evidence into account. I guess this is what ‘post-truth’ looks like. Black and white and everyone yelling instead of actually having a reasoned discussion with the common goal of reaching a consensus.

Stop projecting

Mrsmum

DanDan6592 wrote: »

"The EU survey’s definition included unwelcome touching, sexually suggestive comments or jokes, staring or leering, being sent sexually explicit pictures or messages and indecent exposure among other forms of harassment."

I mean, look. If you feel someone staring at you is sexual harrassment then fair enough. But I'd have to completely disagree. If the standard as to what constitutes sexual harassment wasn't so low then the stats would be lower. I've been sent an sexually explicit pictures by a woman, was I sexual harrassed?

Just because you didn't feel harassed doesn't mean everyone else must not mind either. And as for staring that could be quite uncomfortable if a person is staring at your breasts or legs and just won't stop. We don't mean an innocent one off stare. It's a bit boring to have to keep explaining these things.

I declare the next time I hear man, woman or child telling of some distress they suffered, I'm going to say - listen here, see that thing that happened to you, well the way it is other people would have no problem with that so you've nothing to be upset about and anyway there are worse things that could have happened so shut up, you're belittling real traumas. Not.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Mrsmum wrote: »

Just because you didn't feel harassed doesn't mean everyone else must not mind either. And as for staring that could be quite uncomfortable if a person is staring at your breasts or legs and just won't stop. We don't mean an innocent one off stare. It's a bit boring to have to keep explaining these things.

And this is one of the areas were modern feminism loses me. I'm sorry, but someone staring at you, even your breasts, is a minor inconvenience at worst. Literally get over it. Ye the blokes a creep, whatever. But it gets blown up into this godawful thing, which it isn't, to portray women as these constantly oppressed individuals vis a vis the survey that was produced off the back of staring being considered sexual harassment.

Mrsmum wrote: »

I declare the next time I hear man, woman or child telling of some distress they suffered, I'm going to say - listen here, see that thing that happened to you, well the way it is other people would have no problem with that so you've nothing to be upset about and anyway there are worse things that could have happened so shut up, you're belittling real traumas. Not.

This is exactly whats happened with the #metoo movement. There was an article posted earlier of a rape victim saying exactly this. I'll try go find it.

Mrsmum

Thanks for the advice DanDan to just suck it up but see I continue to think if metoo brings an awareness that people are entitled not to be subjected to creepy behaviour at work, that would be a good day's work.

That rape victim is entitled to her opinion as is everyone.

emptyhouse2222

p1akuw47h5r3it

Mrsmum wrote: »

Thanks for the advice DanDan to just suck it up but see I continue to think if metoo brings an awareness that people are entitled not to be subjected to creepy behaviour at work, that would be a good day's work.

That rape victim is entitled to her opinion as is everyone.

The point is it is long past that.

And you don't have to suck it up. If a bloke is staring at your breasts and making you uncomfortable go over and tell him to stop. I feel like considering that sexual harassment undermines everything else.

https://medium.com/@annsterzinger/sisters-from-a-real-rape-victim-to-metoo-5e11cab66a36 Here's the article if you are interested.

Mrsmum

DanDan6592 wrote: »

The point is it is long past that.

And you don't have to suck it up. If a bloke is staring at your breasts and making you uncomfortable go over and tell him to stop. I feel like considering that sexual harassment undermines everything else.

https://medium.com/@annsterzinger/sisters-from-a-real-rape-victim-to-metoo-5e11cab66a36 Here's the article if you are interested.

Genuinely I don't get it. I mean X speaks about lets say getting a sleazy photo sent to them and Y says she was raped. So for some strange reason that is totally lost on me no-one believes Y purely and solely because X had the cheek not to keep her mouth shut about her experience ? Are people that limited that they can't hear and evaluate different cases.

leggo

DanDan6592 wrote: »

And this is one of the areas were modern feminism loses me. I'm sorry, but someone staring at you, even your breasts, is a minor inconvenience at worst. Literally get over it. Ye the blokes a creep, whatever. But it gets blown up into this godawful thing, which it isn't, to portray women as these constantly oppressed individuals vis a vis the survey that was produced off the back of staring being considered sexual harassment.

Sorry man, but if that's how you see it, it's clear you're just not having actual conversations with women in your life about this. Like I'm not saying you're wrong or bad, I'm just saying you're kinda showing a fairly basic understanding here and I think if you had honest chats with women you know where they explained it to you you'd feel differently. And most are generally happy enough to share what day-to-day reality is for them in this sense.

For example: I worked with a girl who'd be considered conventionally gorgeous and the hassle I'd see her get from men with my own eyes daily, never mind what she told me a night out was like for her, it amazed me that she left the house tbh. And it's like "yeah yeah whatever it's just a bit of attention" but there's a menace to it too, the problem is you don't know when a situation starts which way it's going to go. Like I remember she left work one night and was shook up the next day because a lad walked up to her pretending to look for directions, then kind of cornered her and said "I want to **** you now." He didn't try assault her or anything, she just walked away, but she didn't know that that was going to be how it played out in the moment. She got that kinda stuff 2-3 times a week and did nothing to invite it except 'be good-looking'. I could probably do the same about most women I know. It's not on tbh.

I don't think anyone is saying people should go to prison for staring, but it should be made clear it's not an appropriate way to act in much the same way it needed to be made clear way back that pinching co-workers arse in the workplace wasn't appropriate. This is all people are looking for like. It's not unreasonable.

Sweetemotion

leggo wrote: »

Oh yawn, stop resting on such lazy arguments that sound good in your head but don’t actually show any understanding for the situation as it is. Where did I try silence her? I gave her a long arse post respectfully taking her point seriously and explaining where I differ. I said “As a man” in an earlier post not to give myself a false sense of authority (it wouldn’t anyway if I did that, you’d be damn sure it’d get picked on before now, fortunately most understood that), but to indicate that I could see and share a male viewpoint yet still felt a certain way. I’m not a feminist or an anything ‘-ist’, it’s gas I’ve also been accused of hating women on boards too because I’ve defended men on certain issues, because THAT’S how we understand issues in 2018: you’re either one side or the other, no way you just actually give a **** and looked at it from a neutral standpoint before arriving at a fair conclusion! “You have to have an agenda man, because I can’t argue with the logic of your posts so I’m just going to say that and it’ll sound nice and I’ll feel better!”

This isn’t a paternal split or a war, you don’t have to choose ‘sides’, you can feel one way about one issue and another about another if you care to actually look into the issues instead of seeing it as all black and white.

The reality is discourse on this site has gone to the dogs because of this gender wars ****e. Every single topic becomes a gender war, everyone is arguing for their own gender’s benefit and every issue seems to become “Well men/women have it worse!” There was a time here when you’d get a balanced and nuanced view of a subject because people would have shame and take a step back to look at a topic from a balanced POV taking the facts and evidence into account. I guess this is what ‘post-truth’ looks like. Black and white and everyone yelling instead of actually having a reasoned discussion with the common goal of reaching a consensus.

Here look I get it, you've created your own reality that women want to be with you and men want to be you. You're are simply just great. God like even well done you.

But in actually reality you come across as a condisending pompous git with a dark history you're trying very hard to hide.

professore

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Here look I get it, you've created your own reality that women want to be with you and men want to be you. You're are simply just great. God like even well done you.

But in actually reality you come across as a condisending pompous git with a dark history you're trying very hard to hide.

He's probably a young fella who went to all male schools with no sisters and his only female role model is his mammy who worships him. He actually believes girls are sugar and spice and all things nice. He will learn.

leggo

This got weird. Whatever makes you feel better lads...

pleas advice

BBFAN wrote: »

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

We have degrees of murder for god’s sake, why can’t we have degrees here?

We do have degrees though?

degrees in gender studies, wha?

Bigbagofcans

Sweetemotion wrote: »

I always find male feminists creepy. Especially those who say "as a man" and then go on to tell us how great they are. Who then try to silence women, whose opinions differ from theirs.

God forbid some men want equality for women too :rolleyes:

professore

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

God forbid some men want equality for women too :rolleyes:

Modern feminism isn't about equality.

Women outnumber men in college in almost every discipline yet all we hear is how "disadvantaged" girls are in a few STEM fields - and its presented as all STEM fields while many are already huge majority female, e.g. Medicine, psychology, biology etc. In non STEM its no contest.

Women in their 20s and 30s outearn men but again it's the "gender pay gap".

Why not ensure everyone has a fair crack of the whip? How is the current message to young men any different than the message young women recieved in the past?

At least young women weren't told on the radio "The future is male"

I'm a middle aged man with daughters so I've no horse in the race. I've seen both types of discrimination. My daughters have every encouragement and opportunity. If I had sons it would be a lot harder for them.

A healthy society is made up of men and women working together equally. This is not the message men are getting.

Gimme A Pound

professore wrote: »

He actually believes girls are sugar and spice and all things nice. He will learn.

Do you say things like the above to your daughters?

The gender pay gap thing is bollox but I don't believe either that women in their 20s and 30s out-earn men. Seems like a manipulated stat from the other direction. Why would women out-earn men during those years? I'd bet the reality is 50/50.

leggo

You’re treating it like a war though, like you then need to batten down the hatches and protect everything you’ve got. I’d agree that the field has been levelled up, I understand how women past their 30’s don’t see it that way (because the opportunities and norms that they see are in line with the culture they grew up in) and that progress is a generational thing. Agree with everything you’re saying there, minus the part about it being ‘harder’ for men, it’s not they have the exact same opportunities. We are where we want to be equality wise, yet it will persist until the end product is there. That’s not them looking for ‘more’, that’s them still not seeing proportional representation in the Dail for example, or as many jobs in the media and so on, which will sort itself out in time but until it does expect people to fight for them and see it through.

But because you feel this way, it seems like everything a woman says now your attitude is to get defensive and immediately poo-poo it as if she’s coming to take your land. So it bleeds into your attitude for #MeToo, when the only real objective of that campaign is to make a safer world for your daughters, which I’m sure you can agree on. I look at it through the lens of my sister, similarly, and then it becomes a no-brainer. You know how lads are and have been for years, you know how they look at women and how many lads treat them, why would you rather a few people who you have to know are sleazes got their right to be sleazes protected ahead of your daughters’ wellbeing?

meeeeh

Adalynn Gray Putter wrote: »

Do you say things like the above to your daughters?

The gender pay gap thing is bollox but I don't believe either that women in their 20s and 30s out-earn men. Seems like a manipulated stat from the other direction. Why would women out-earn men during those years? I'd bet the reality is 50/50.

There is some proof that out of college women out earn men, it all changes for majority of working life. It is also true that women are more successful getting university but they are not great converting it into senior positions at work (including universities or education). I'm all for equal opportunities, it would improve chances of young men but it would also affect the cushy position middle aged men have and that I suspect is what worries professore (it is his age/gender group that is benefiting above everyone in the current arrangement).

py2006

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

God forbid some men want equality for women too :rolleyes:

Most men do. Feminists it does not make them.

Bigbagofcans

py2006 wrote: »

Most men do. Feminists it does not make them.

A feminist is someone who believes that women and men should have equal rights and opportunities. So of course most men (well most of the ones I know) are feminists.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Mrsmum wrote: »

Genuinely I don't get it. I mean X speaks about lets say getting a sleazy photo sent to them and Y says she was raped. So for some strange reason that is totally lost on me no-one believes Y purely and solely because X had the cheek not to keep her mouth shut about her experience ? Are people that limited that they can't hear and evaluate different cases.

What? By undermining I meant belittling experiences of those victims of sexual assault and rape, as they all get lumped together under the guise of #metoo. Nothing to do with not believing. Again I draw your attention to the article that was posted earlier, and I reposted.

Why not, when a bloke stares or leers at you, go over and tell him to stop? And I mean that as a genuine question. It's way more likely to have an effect on him then reading stuff on twitter, which he probably won't even read.

You seem a very genuine poster Mrsmum, how often have you been levered at? And was it that big a deal to you?

p1akuw47h5r3it

leggo wrote: »

Sorry man, but if that's how you see it, it's clear you're just not having actual conversations with women in your life about this. Like I'm not saying you're wrong or bad, I'm just saying you're kinda showing a fairly basic understanding here and I think if you had honest chats with women you know where they explained it to you you'd feel differently. And most are generally happy enough to share what day-to-day reality is for them in this sense.

For example: I worked with a girl who'd be considered conventionally gorgeous and the hassle I'd see her get from men with my own eyes daily, never mind what she told me a night out was like for her, it amazed me that she left the house tbh. And it's like "yeah yeah whatever it's just a bit of attention" but there's a menace to it too, the problem is you don't know when a situation starts which way it's going to go. Like I remember she left work one night and was shook up the next day because a lad walked up to her pretending to look for directions, then kind of cornered her and said "I want to **** you now." He didn't try assault her or anything, she just walked away, but she didn't know that that was going to be how it played out in the moment. She got that kinda stuff 2-3 times a week and did nothing to invite it except 'be good-looking'. I could probably do the same about most women I know. It's not on tbh.

I don't think anyone is saying people should go to prison for staring, but it should be made clear it's not an appropriate way to act in much the same way it needed to be made clear way back that pinching co-workers arse in the workplace wasn't appropriate. This is all people are looking for like. It's not unreasonable.

"it amazed me she left the house". Give me a break mate. Women aren't delicate little creatures that need protecting.

I have talked to female friends about this, I couldn't have adequately informed my opinion had I not. 2 of my friends in particular are like your friend, georgeous. Neither have had an experience of being cornered like your friend, never mind it happening "2-3 times a week". I'm not saying she's lying, but she's not the norm either.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

God forbid some men want equality for women too :rolleyes:

How can you live in the western world and not believe women are equal! How!

Bigbagofcans

DanDan6592 wrote: »

How can you live in the western world and not believe women are equal! How!

I detect sarcasm.

leggo

DanDan6592 wrote: »

"it amazed me she left the house". Give me a break mate. Women aren't delicate little creatures that need protecting.

I have talked to female friends about this, I couldn't have adequately informed my opinion had I not. 2 of my friends in particular are like your friend, georgeous. Neither have had an experience of being cornered like your friend, never mind it happening "2-3 times a week". I'm not saying she's lying, but she's not the norm either.

You’ve two gorgeous women friends who’ve never been intimidated by creeps? Right. Well you’ve put that in writing so let’s leave it up on one of the biggest sites in Ireland and leave it for people to see if they believe that.