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End of #metoo

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    #422
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    Another odd thing that metoo supporters don't seem to realise is that rape is in actual fact far more of a crime against the young than it is against females per se. Most attackers (rape I mean) are older men and their victims are mostly much younger people or children.


    I know this sounds contradictory, because of course it is mostly the female sex who is raped, but if you look at it from a wider demographic perspective rape is a crime against the young.

    Yes, more females are raped than males, but a huge percentage of rapes happen to people under the age of 18, 44 % in some stats happen to people under 18, 15% of all rapes are under the age of 12, and thereafter the vast bulk of all rapes - about 80% - happen to people under the age of 30. Girls aged 16 to 19 are four times more likely to be raped than any other member of the population.

    Also more than 70% of rapes take place between 6 pm and 6 am, which indicates they are not related, generally, to workplaces. More than two thirds of rape are carried out by an intimate, friend or relative of the victim.

    This would lead me to think that a campaign that focuses especially on minor enough incidents of workplace harrassment can never get to the root of actual rape.

    Plus I have an idea that the workplace lecher is not a member of the same demographic as the predatory rapist. This is an important distinction also, especially if one's intention is to lower the incidents of violent assault on women. Which we all want.



    These are among the contributory factors to my opinion that annoyance or harrassment and violent assault are different issues, and should not be conflated.


    We all want sexual annoyance against women to stop, that is completely true.

    It is repeatedly asked in this thread WHO conflates rape and groping. The answer is MeToo does. It says so when you google MeToo.


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    #423
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Bigbagofcans wrote: »
    A feminist is someone who believes that women and men should have equal rights and opportunities. So of course most men (well most of the ones I know) are feminists.

    Hmm you may want to pass that definition onto some of the loons of today that label their antics and attitudes as feminism.


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    #424
    Bigbagofcans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Bigbagofcans


    leggo wrote: »
    You’ve two gorgeous women friends who’ve never been intimidated by creeps? Right. Well you’ve put that in writing so let’s leave it up on one of the biggest sites in Ireland and leave it for people to see if they believe that.

    I've been intimidated and mauled by a lot of my creeps in my life as I'm sure many girls have.

    Most girls don't talk about it and try to forget about these humiliating experiences.

    This brave lady spoke about her experience:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/verbal-abuse-of-women-in-public-1.2395050


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    #425
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    For a bit of balance.

    I as a man have experienced sexism and harassment on varying levels. I've spoken about it before on here. From comments by female colleague on the bulge in my trousers to having my crotch grabbed so hard in a nightclub I had to leave with the pain and having to visit a doctor the next day. I could go on.

    From my experience men don't talk about these things or are forced to laugh them off by society because of the gender of the perpetrator.

    I'm not saying men suffer as much as women but it's a lot closer to a level playing field than feminists want society to believe.

    I know men don't have the fear of rape the way women do (unless they go to an American prison apparently). But labelling all men as potential harassers and rapists is whats becoming the norm nowadays along with looking for every an any opportunity to make an accusation with total disregard for accountability.


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    #426
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    py2006 wrote: »
    For a bit of balance.

    I as a man have experienced sexism and harassment on varying levels. I've spoken about it before on here. From comments by female colleague on the bulge in my trousers to having my crotch grabbed so hard in a nightclub I had to leave with the pain and having to visit a doctor the next day. I could go on.

    From my experience men don't talk about these things or are forced to laugh them off by society because of the gender of the perpetrator.

    I'm not saying men suffer as much as women but it's a lot closer to a level playing field than feminists want society to believe.

    I know men don't have the fear of rape the way women do (unless they go to an American prison apparently). But labelling all men as potential harassers and rapists is whats becoming the norm nowadays along with looking for every an any opportunity to make an accusation with total disregard for accountability.
    I, a self-described Feminist think that no one, male or female should be expected to accept verbal or physical sexual harassment.

    I do not think they should be quiet about it, to just accept it as 'banter' or 'a bit of fun' or any of the other common phrases used to handwave it all away.

    For some reason any time women bring up the harassment they experience, they are either told it's no big deal or than men get the same treatment, just like you have done.

    If you personally are happy to keep quiet and not complain, that is entirely your choice.

    It is not up to you to tell other people to keep quiet just because you chose to.


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    #427
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    What? By undermining I meant belittling experiences of those victims of sexual assault and rape, as they all get lumped together under the guise of #metoo. Nothing to do with not believing. Again I draw your attention to the article that was posted earlier, and I reposted.

    Why not, when a bloke stares or leers at you, go over and tell him to stop? And I mean that as a genuine question. It's way more likely to have an effect on him then reading stuff on twitter, which he probably won't even read.

    You seem a very genuine poster Mrsmum, how often have you been levered at? And was it that big a deal to you?

    I don't think you're getting the full picture. You're assuming I go over and stay stop that and job done. But said sleezy guy is not going to say sorry, I'll stop so, he's more likely to puff himself up and say don't flatter yourself, I wasn't looking at you at all, f**k sake,as if. And that assuming we are on the same level, What if I am just in the door or at a low grade and he is a big shot in the company. In a lot of bigger companies you could go to HR or union maybe but the thing is you get a name as a bit hysterical/prude or whatever because you're supposed to be able to deal with it yourself but why should women have to be dealing with this sh*te. A man sore because you slapped him down doesn't make for a happy working environment. And remember there is a lot of workplaces where there's no protection. Person who hands out the best shifts or extra hours using their position against women who need that job. The more vulnerable you are the greater the chance of abuse.

    You know in the future when you will have far more female managers, I actually have no doubt men will find themselves more and more on the receiving end of this and so for their sake too, can this nonsense that has no place in the workplace not be outlawed.

    As for me, yes I have stories. Nothing serious but annoying stuff.


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    #428
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    What? By undermining I meant belittling experiences of those victims of sexual assault and rape, as they all get lumped together under the guise of #metoo. Nothing to do with not believing. Again I draw your attention to the article that was posted earlier, and I reposted.

    Why not, when a bloke stares or leers at you, go over and tell him to stop? And I mean that as a genuine question. It's way more likely to have an effect on him then reading stuff on twitter, which he probably won't even read.

    You seem a very genuine poster Mrsmum, how often have you been levered at? And was it that big a deal to you?

    Imagine if a guy twice your size was staring at you, sniggering behind his hand with his mates, obviously making remarks about you, would you feel safe enough to stride on over there and demand that he stop?

    Or would you be a bit worried that someone who is assh*le enough to behave as you've already seen might just be assh*le enough to turn violent?

    Women tend to be smaller than men - escalating a situation with an obviously obnoxious stranger is not very likely to end in the smaller person's favour.


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    #429
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    leggo wrote: »
    You’ve two gorgeous women friends who’ve never been intimidated by creeps? Right. Well you’ve put that in writing so let’s leave it up on one of the biggest sites in Ireland and leave it for people to see if they believe that.

    No they havn't. What, don't believe them? How ironic.


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    #430
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    B0jangles wrote: »
    .

    For some reason any time women bring up the harassment they experience, they are either told it's no big deal or than men get the same treatment, just like you have done.

    If you personally are happy to keep quiet and not complain, that is entirely your choice.

    It is not up to you to tell other people to keep quiet just because you chose to.

    A total misrepresentation of what I said. Well done.


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    #431
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    py2006 wrote: »
    A total misrepresentation of what I said. Well done.


    How have I misrepresented you? I certainly did not intend to do so.

    You cited your own experiences of being harassed and somehow slid from that to complaining that all men are being labelled potential harassers and that's its becoming the norm to look for 'any opportunity to make an accusation with total disregard for accountability.'

    By that logic, you could easily be lying about and exaggerating your own experiences, or just making them up for attention and because you just want to get women into trouble. I do not think you are, nor do I think the vast majority of other victims of harassment are either.

    I pointed out that sexual harassment shouldn't be acceptable against either men or women, and that your choice as to how to react to being harassed was yours to make - it's not up to you, or me to decide how anyone else should react*

    *edit or to decide that they are probably making it all up because I really like the actor/mucisian/scientist who they are accusing.


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    #432
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    I don't think you're getting the full picture. You're assuming I go over and stay stop that and job done. But said sleezy guy is not going to say sorry, I'll stop so, he's more likely to puff himself up and say don't flatter yourself, I wasn't looking at you at all, f**k sake,as if. And that assuming we are on the same level, What if I am just in the door or at a low grade and he is a big shot in the company. In a lot of bigger companies you could go to HR or union maybe but the thing is you get a name as a bit hysterical/prude or whatever because you're supposed to be able to deal with it yourself but why should women have to be dealing with this sh*te. A man sore because you slapped him down doesn't make for a happy working environment. And remember there is a lot of workplaces where there's no protection. Person who hands out the best shifts or extra hours using their position against women who need that job. The more vulnerable you are the greater the chance of abuse.

    So what if he says don't flatter yourself etc. He'll deep down be highly embarrassed, and be less likely do it again. And him being a big shot is no excuse. Women are often accussed of being too meek. And this is an example of that. "Oh he's a big shot, I can't do anything". Actually yes, yes you can. Was this not the whole idea of feminism originally? For women to be strong and independent, and to stand up against this stuff as opposed to now

    What your saying is there is nothing you can do but put it on social media, it's just one big viscous cycle. But it isn't.
    Mrsmum wrote: »
    You know in the future when you will have far more female managers, I actually have no doubt men will find themselves more and more on the receiving end of this and so for their sake too, can this nonsense that has no place in the workplace not be outlawed.

    As for me, yes I have stories. Nothing serious but annoying stuff.

    How could you possible outlaw staring/leering?


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    #433
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Imagine if a guy twice your size was staring at you, sniggering behind his hand with his mates, obviously making remarks about you, would you feel safe enough to stride on over there and demand that he stop?

    Or would you be a bit worried that someone who is assh*le enough to behave as you've already seen might just be assh*le enough to turn violent?

    Women tend to be smaller than men - escalating a situation with an obviously obnoxious stranger is not very likely to end in the smaller person's favour.

    It would depend on a number of factors obviously, but in general, genuinely, yes I would. And yes I'm aware it is easy for me to say that, but I do understand the point you are making. You don't have to "stride over and demand he stop", walk over and be calm. It depends on the situation I'll admit. A man is very unlikely to hit a woman, more so if he's with his mates.

    Look, I'm aware that the onus is on the bloke to not do it in the first place. But you can't keep on coming up with excuses to not do something about it yourself.


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    #434
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    It would depend on a number of factors obviously, but in general, genuinely, yes I would. And yes I'm aware it is easy for me to say that, but I do understand the point you are making. You don't have to "stride over and demand he stop", walk over and be calm. It depends on the situation I'll admit. A man is very unlikely to hit a woman, more so if he's with his mates.
    Look, I'm aware that the onus is on the bloke to not do it in the first place. But you can't keep on coming up with excuses to not do something about it yourself.


    Good for you that you feel safe doing that.

    I wouldn't - why on earth would I feel confident that a guy capable of publically behaving like a boor would be averse to hitting a woman who started telling him what to do?


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    #435
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    meeeeh wrote: »
    There is some proof that out of college women out earn men, it all changes for majority of working life. It is also true that women are more successful getting university but they are not great converting it into senior positions at work (including universities or education). I'm all for equal opportunities, it would improve chances of young men but it would also affect the cushy position middle aged men have and that I suspect is what worries professore (it is his age/gender group that is benefiting above everyone in the current arrangement).

    Here we go with "men are afraid of woman being successful" angle. I couldn't care less if more women go into University. At the end of the day they to study "weaker" subjects i.e. non-STEM ones anyway.

    As long as men have the opportunity to go to University, and those that don't can do a trade or find a job, there is no problem. It'd be interesting to see the reaction of some feminists if the government came out with a proposal to enure a 50/50 gender split in University, which would be at the expense of women.

    I think you have missed Professore's point anyhow.


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    #436
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Good for you that you feel safe doing that.

    I wouldn't - why on earth would I feel confident that a guy capable of publically behaving like a boor would be averse to hitting a woman who started telling him what to do?

    Because the vast majority of men don't hit women.


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    #437
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    It would depend on a number of factors obviously, but in general, genuinely, yes I would. And yes I'm aware it is easy for me to say that, but I do understand the point you are making. You don't have to "stride over and demand he stop", walk over and be calm. It depends on the situation I'll admit. A man is very unlikely to hit a woman, more so if he's with his mates.

    Look, I'm aware that the onus is on the bloke to not do it in the first place. But you can't keep on coming up with excuses to not do something about it yourself.

    The reality is, you have absolutely no idea how they'll respond so I don't find it remotely strange that a person would put personal safety above confronting an unknown quantity on the street.


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    #438
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    batgoat wrote: »
    The reality is, you have absolutely no idea how they'll respond so I don't find it remotely strange that a person would put personal safety above confronting an unknown quantity on the street.

    Be a meek coward so and go home and complain on Twitter. Watch as nothing changes.


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    #439
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    As long as men have the opportunity to go to University, and those that don't can do a trade or find a job, there is no problem. It'd be interesting to see the reaction of some feminists if the government came out with a proposal to enure a 50/50 gender split in University, which would be at the expense of women.

    I would have no problem at 50/50 split but then to make it fair it would have to be 50/50 at every course.


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    #440
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I would have no problem at 50/50 split but then to make it fair it would have to be 50/50 at every course.

    Oh my God. The numbers graduating from nursing, for example, would plummet.


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    #441
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    Because the vast majority of men don't hit women.


    Can you tell the violent ones from the non-violent at a glance, or is it just a fun game of chance?


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    #442
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    Be a meek coward so and go home and complain on Twitter. Watch as nothing changes.


    Are you just throwing these suggestions out off the top of your head or have you put even 5 minutes thought into them?


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    #443
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    Oh my God. The numbers graduating from nursing, for example, would plummet.

    Oh so you are against 50/50 split, why did you bring it up?


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    #444
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    Be a meek coward so and go home and complain on Twitter. Watch as nothing changes.

    You want people to risk their safety? The fault lies with the harasser, not with those meek and complaining women who won't confront them and risk the possibility of worse. It sounds a lot like put up or shut up.


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    #445
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Can you tell the violent ones from the non-violent at a glance, or is it just a fun game of chance?

    Ye better just to assume all men are violent women beaters so. Nothing will change with your attitude.

    I did say it would depend on a number of factors btw i.e. if it is just you on your own, time of day potentially etc.


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    #446
    Bigbagofcans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Bigbagofcans


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    Be a meek coward so and go home and complain on Twitter. Watch as nothing changes.

    So anyone who gets verbally abused/degraded and harassed is a meek coward? You have very little empathy.


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    #447
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Candie wrote: »
    You want people to risk their safety? The fault lies with the harasser, not with those meek and complaining women who won't confront them and risk the possibility of worse. It sounds a lot like put up or shut up.

    I know the fault lies with the harasser. I've said as much.


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    #448
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I would have no problem at 50/50 split but then to make it fair it would have to be 50/50 at every course.

    Why? Women are not on average as interested in STEM subjects, by their own choice. Studies show this time and time again. By your argument it would also have to be 50/50 men and women cleaning the sewers.


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    #449
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Bigbagofcans wrote: »
    So anyone who gets verbally abused/degraded and harassed is a meek coward? You have very little empathy.

    I want people to stand up for themselves, as opposed to forever making excuses as to why they can't, which is what is going on here. I can't, I can't, I can't.


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    #450
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    I know the fault lies with the harasser. I've said as much.

    And you're laying the blame for nothing changing at the feet of the women who don't confront a person they don't know who is already behaving in an intimidating way towards them.

    I'm less than 5ft tall, if two men are harassing me do you think I should go up to them and demand they stop in the hope they see the error of their ways, men who already think it's okay to harass?


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    #451
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Candie wrote: »
    And you're laying the blame for nothing changing at the feet of the women who don't confront a person they don't know who is already behaving in an intimidating way towards them.

    I'm less than 5ft tall, if two men are harassing me do you think I should go up to them and demand they stop in the hope they see the error of their ways, men who already think it's okay to harass?

    Yes I do.

    I'm not laying the blame, I'm saying that nothing will change until you start to do these things. I'm making an observation.

    There is a huge jump from leering/staring at a woman, or making a lewd remark, to actual physical violence.


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