BusConnects - Cyclist Support Vital

Mickiemcfist

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

I don't know about you Mick, but if I drive or take the bus to work, it isn't the cyclists who're slowing traffic down.

It's kind of bizarre that you admit to needing to use a bike designed for riding off-road in order to use cycle lanes and then say anyone not prepared to do this has a "sense of entitlement".

My point is that TFI are suggesting building dedicated, segregated cycle lanes yet people above are still saying they're going to use the road. If I was a planner & read that I'd just shrug my shoulders & ignore cyclists completely as it seems they'll use car/bus infrastructure regardless of what was built. Which is what they've been doing to date.

schemingbohemia

brocbrocach wrote: »

No, I know what it's about. It's about tying positive changes in city infrastructure (which would be logical changes anyway) to a restructuring of bus services which has major flaws. There is no reason why that cycling infrastructure wouldn't be built independently of BusConnects.

I'd compare this move to something like the proposed changes to the Fairview road system, which involved using the need for a cycling lane to push for otherwise unpopular decisions.

Why cyclists should feel a moral obligation to support the privatisation of bus routes is beyond me.

There is no privatisation!

Are you opposed to the LUAS? It's contracted the same way as Go Ahead.

Experience has shown that cycling infrastructure comes way down the priority list for politicians, tying it in with Bus Infrastructure gives it a much better chance of success.

Fian

Mickiemcfist wrote: »

My point is that TFI are suggesting building dedicated, segregated cycle lanes yet people above are still saying they're going to use the road. If I was a planner & read that I'd just shrug my shoulders & ignore cyclists completely as it seems they'll use car/bus infrastructure regardless of what was built. Which is what they've been doing to date.

People, including myself, are saying that if the "dedicated segregated cycle lanes" are worse to use than the road we will use the roads. nobody is saying "if these cycle lanes are more convenient to use than teh roads I will use the roads anyway."

Let's imagine there are two routes available to you to drive your car into the city: one smooth, quick and convenient, the other bumpy/jarring, dangerous, slower, full of stops and starts and less convenient.

Legally, you are perfectly entitled to choose to use either route.

Do you (a) use the convenient route, or (b) use the inconvenient once because you want to leave more room for other traffic on the nice one?

I frequently find myself with exactly that choice based on existing infrastructure, when that arises I choose (a).

brocbrocach

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Experience has shown that cycling infrastructure comes way down the priority list for politicians, tying it in with Bus Infrastructure gives it a much better chance of success.

So now that cycling infrastructure is beginning to be made more of a priority, that planners and elected officials are finally seeing the light ... we throw away all that moral high ground so governments can spend less money on public transport?

Why do you think the people behind BusConnects are tying cycle lanes into the package, because our shared lanes have formed a bond between us?



I don't see the relevance of all your Luas references. Changing some bus routes and timetables is very different to providing a brand new form of PT. Are you saying that the Luas service isn't privatised? It's mere semantics if it's not.

brianomc

Mickiemcfist wrote: »

Why should cyclists get to slow down other methods of transport when they have their own dedicated lane? I cycle to work & have to use some fairly bad cycle paths, therefore use a MTB rather than road bike, each method of transport have their drawbacks, but it seems cyclists have a sense of entitlement that no other demographic have.

Where is the incentive for the government to invest heavily in cycling infrastructure when you have people saying I prefer the road anyway

I took the bus in this morning at half 6 from Chapelizod, we got to the quays and got stuck behind 2 slow cyclists for about a minute until the bus could overtake. The driver then proceeded about 100metres before getting stuck in a bus lane* behind cars. The cyclists overtook us and I never saw them again. It took 10 minutes to get from Heuston Station to Bachelors Walk.

I prefer to use the road, if there are slow cyclists in front of me, I have more space to overtake than in a segregated lane. Also the usual, keeping priority at junctions, roads are better condition in general etc

* Bus lane isnt active until 7am so the bus has to sit behind miles of cars and put up with trucks doing deliveries

Bus Connect is making the service worse through Chapelizod, down with Bus Connect!!!!

I agree with having segregation to encourage nervous/inexperienced cyclists but don’t want their construction to lead to a mandatory use situation, or an assumed mandatory-use which is even worse.

RayCun

The infrastructure changes and route changes are directly linked.
The infrastructure changes are to build dedicated bus lanes so that bus traffic on those roads will be faster.
The route changes are to put all radial traffic on to those roads, and support them with other routes to get people on to the fast routes.

The two go hand in hand. The infrastructure changes won't go ahead unless they can be justified by more frequent bus traffic on the changed roads.

Macy0161

brianomc wrote:

I took the bus in this morning at half 6 from Chapelizod, we got to the quays and got stuck behind 2 slow cyclists for about a minute until the bus could overtake. The driver then proceeded about 100metres before getting stuck in a bus lane* behind cars. The cyclists overtook us and I never saw them again. It took 10 minutes to get from Heuston Station to Bachelors Walk.

I'm always pointing this to people in my locale when they're complaining about being stuck behind cyclists how we all get stuck behind the Sunday drivers, tourists, buses, campervans for 10 or 15 km, yet they're complaining about being stuck behind a cyclist for a couple of seconds.

I don't really know about the being stuck behind slower cyclists as a reason not to use them. That's what we give out to motorists for having no patience? For me, it's the quality of the surface, whether it's clear of leaves and branches, interactions with pedestrians, where they spit you out on the road, the yielding signs/ marks when the road has right of way etc. But I suppose they're not appropriate for going faster in many cases because of how crap they are.

magicbastarder

I've heard complaints about the changes to the bus service in chapelizod, but a colleague was telling me that it currently has loads of buses passing through which are full by the time they get there, and the change will mean a less regular, but dedicated, service?

magicbastarder

I've heard complaints about the changes to the bus service in chapelizod, but a colleague was telling me that it currently has loads of buses passing through which are full by the time they get there, and the change will mean a less regular, but dedicated, service?

Qrt

brianomc wrote: »

I took the bus in this morning at half 6 from Chapelizod, we got to the quays and got stuck behind 2 slow cyclists for about a minute until the bus could overtake. The driver then proceeded about 100metres before getting stuck in a bus lane* behind cars. The cyclists overtook us and I never saw them again. It took 10 minutes to get from Heuston Station to Bachelors Walk.

I prefer to use the road, if there are slow cyclists in front of me, I have more space to overtake than in a segregated lane. Also the usual, keeping priority at junctions, roads are better condition in general etc

* Bus lane isnt active until 7am so the bus has to sit behind miles of cars and put up with trucks doing deliveries

Bus Connect is making the service worse through Chapelizod, down with Bus Connect!!!!

I agree with having segregation to encourage nervous/inexperienced cyclists but don’t want their construction to lead to a mandatory use situation, or an assumed mandatory-use which is even worse.

Are you a "typical" cyclist? Just a question. Good bike, dedicated clothing, eyewear, helmet etc?

brianomc

Macy0161 wrote: »

I don't really know about the being stuck behind slower cyclists as a reason not to use them. That's what we give out to motorists for having no patience?

If I'm stuck behind them, then so be it. I wont squeeze passed, I'll just sit back and go with the flow for a few minutes until it's safe to overtake. All I meant was, it's easier to overtake a cyclist on a road than a segregated cycle lane. On something like the cycle lanes through the phoenix park or S2S Northside I will take to the grass to overtake if it's dry. Bit harder to do that if you had a drop off a curb or raised curbing at the edge.

Qrt wrote: »

Are you a "typical" cyclist? Just a question. Good bike, dedicated clothing, eyewear, helmet etc?

If that's the definition of typical cyclist then the answer is "sometimes". If I'm on a proper spin, which doesn't happen much any more, then yes to all 4. On my commute, decent bike, tracksuit bottoms, cycling jersey, prescription glasses of the regular variety, helmet (is this seen as a bad thing now?)

I see more people on my commute cycling basic bikes or dublin bikes, wearing suits/jeans/workwear, no eyewear, 50:50 helmets, so your definition of cyclist differs from mine as far as commuting goes.

magicbastarder

Qrt wrote: »

Are you a "typical" cyclist? Just a question. Good bike, dedicated clothing, eyewear, helmet etc?

Well, that doesn't sound like a loaded question at all at all.

brianomc

magicbastarder wrote: »

I've heard complaints about the changes to the bus service in chapelizod, but a colleague was telling me that it currently has loads of buses passing through which are full by the time they get there, and the change will mean a less regular, but dedicated, service?

It will be starting at Liffey Valley, backroads into Palmerstown and into Chapelizod and running every 30 minutes, instead of the usual 5-10 minutes as it stands now. Outside of peak commuting times I always got on board on any bus and wouldn't even check the next one before walking to the stop. They had to add a 6:25, 7:25 and 8:25 bus from the West County in Chapelizod last year to give us any chance of getting a bus in the mornings. Prior to that, if the one went passed at 6:30 without stopping then it could be anywhere from 20-40 minutes before getting on the next one that stopped as the rest were all full. I usually only got the bus once a week and luckily I can cut the bus out completely and cycle in if it comes to it. I'm in work so early I've never seen the queues at their worst at the Chapelizod stops.

The fear is that if the bus is less frequent then the buses will fill up before they reach us and instead of maybe getting one in 5 or 10 mins you will have to wait 30 minutes for the next one and maybe get on. There's a post on the local facebook page that says that the number 26 went passed full. The number 26 starts at Cherry Orchard, down through Palmerstown and into Chapelizod which is very similar to the new route. If that bus is full now, and it's our only option in the future then people will turn back to cars, or bikes, but probably cars.

brianomc

magicbastarder wrote: »

Well, that doesn't sound like a loaded question at all at all.

Believe me, it took a lot but I resisted the urge to give my definition of "typical" <insert other road user here>

Qrt

brianomc wrote: »

If I'm stuck behind them, then so be it. I wont squeeze passed, I'll just sit back and go with the flow for a few minutes until it's safe to overtake. All I meant was, it's easier to overtake a cyclist on a road than a segregated cycle lane. On something like the cycle lanes through the phoenix park or S2S Northside I will take to the grass to overtake if it's dry. Bit harder to do that if you had a drop off a curb or raised curbing at the edge.



If that's the definition of typical cyclist then the answer is "sometimes". If I'm on a proper spin, which doesn't happen much any more, then yes to all 4. On my commute, decent bike, tracksuit bottoms, cycling jersey, prescription glasses of the regular variety, helmet (is this seen as a bad thing now?)

I see more people on my commute cycling basic bikes or dublin bikes, wearing suits/jeans/workwear, no eyewear, 50:50 helmets, so your definition of cyclist differs from mine as far as commuting goes.

magicbastarder wrote: »

Well, that doesn't sound like a loaded question at all at all.

I didn't mean anything by it, I just based the "typical" part on what gets stereotyped etc. Judging from the post you seemed like a very well versed cyclist, exact opposite of myself. I lived in Germany over the summer, very rural, cycled everywhere on a rusting old step-on city bike. Cycling there was an absolute dream. I don't cycle here at the moment (bike got nicked) but I can't see myself being able to get the metaphorical balls to do so any time soon.

brianomc

Qrt wrote: »

I don't cycle here at the moment (bike got nicked) but I can't see myself being able to get the metaphorical balls to do so any time soon.

Don't be put off. It's way safer than it's made out to be. The positives outweigh the negatives by far.

Edit: If you enjoy cycling but feel nervous on the roads then there are off-road lanes available. If you are in Dublin then the Phoenix Park and from Alfie Bryne road out to Howth both have comfortable off-road setups. They rent bikes in the park too at the entrance near the criminal courts.

Qrt

brianomc wrote: »

Don't be put off. It's way safer than it's made out to be. The positives outweigh the negatives by far.

I've always thought that, but I live at home with the aul' wan (do people say that for mothers, like aul' fella for fathers?) and any notion of getting into it leads to a slight row. The worst thing is that the BusConnects infrastructure plan essentially leaves out my entire area, and leave it to the mercy of SDCC. Great plans in the NTA plan published all those years ago now, but few have come into fruition.

Mr. Grieves

The idea of a bus getting stuck behind a cyclist is ludicrous, a bus has to stop every few hundred metres. My local bus achieves an average speed of 7 km/hr into town during peak times.

However, if there are to be dedicated bus lanes with enforcement regarding driving in them, bus speed will improve. So we need to engage with the next phase of the consultation which deals with the road design.

I'm an 'experienced' cyclist and I won't use crap cycle lanes. But I happily use good ones. I definitely support Bus Connects and think it represents an opportunity to be consulted on how roads are designed.

To those who don't like segregation, can I ask if you cycle with kids day to day, and if you don't, why don't you (assuming you have kids)?

Annie get your Run

Mickiemcfist wrote: »

My point is that TFI are suggesting building dedicated, segregated cycle lanes yet people above are still saying they're going to use the road. If I was a planner & read that I'd just shrug my shoulders & ignore cyclists completely as it seems they'll use car/bus infrastructure regardless of what was built. Which is what they've been doing to date.

The problem is, our track record for building cycling infra in this country is dreadful. No proper planning or consultation, rubbish lanes and as stated several times already, you loose right of way at junctions etc. If that's what they're planning to build then they can keep it and spend the money elsewhere. Most people who commute by bike would love nothing more than proper Dutch style dedicated infra separate from the cars/buses and taxi's and indeed motorbikes we normally have to mix with. I won't hold my breath though, they'll squeeze in something where they can and it won't work and then we'll be the worst in the world for not using the lanes they spent millions making a balls of.

They need to hold a separate consultation process for the cycling infrastructure and they need to speak to people who will use it regularly. Actually, I'd be happy if a few engineers travelled with me by bike on my route in and out to work so they can see first hand what the problems are. They should do this for every major route into the city!

magicbastarder

Re traffic getting stuck behind cyclists, earlier in the summer on my commute into work, I saw a guy in a distinctively coloured audi (i.e. it was a shade of brown that looked like fermented ****) pulling a dick move on east wall road. We were still swapping places with each other passing leopardstown racecourse. If a car cannot go faster than a cyclist before 7:30am, over a distance of about 10km, it doesn't feed into a narrative of cyclists holding traffic up.

wheelo01

There are two highly conflicting parts to this, the infrastructure that SHOULD make the life of a cyclist easier, and the changes to the bus services.
If the planned money was put into the infrastructure with keeping the bus services, You still get a better service as they are talking about enforcing these bus/cycle lanes, yet an Garda Siochana will not be policing this, as they don't have the resources to police what they should be at the moment. Pump the money in, but the bus services don't necessarily need to change to achieve what the cyclist community would like (though they seem to have tied the whole plan together)
From the bus perspective, there are loads of negatives, for example, the current 122 from drimnagh goes down the South Circular Road to synge street and on down camden Street, where about 80% of passengers get off (Schoolkids for Synge Street, College students , and others who work in hte general stephens green, Harcourt st area) The 122 will disappear, and those from Drimnagh will have to get a bus to inchicore, then get a second to the SCR.
The 123 will no longer serve St. James Hospital (nor will any other bus), this hospital got the planning for the new Childrens hospital on the basis of the great public transport links, yet will not be serviced, leading to yet more parking in the residential areas, bringing more traffic in, slowing things down. The mater hospital is no longer accessible by a direct bus service from the Drimnagh/Rialto/Dolphins barn area. There are many more of these, but they are just some from my local area.
There are a lot of statistics that Mr. Walker has thrown around like the Navan road will have a 7-10 minute service - Currently, you have the 37, 38, 38A,39, 39A, 70, 122 servicing this corridoor, giving a 7-10 minute service, so 0% bettering of services.
The elderly, infirm, ill, disabled are being forgotten in all this. They are the ones who will most be affected by the need to interchange, particularly on a nasty winters day.
Oh, and incidentally, there will not be one extra bus put on.

The two need to be separated, but for me, bus connects gets a great big thumbs down.

RayCun

St James hospital is on the LUAS (which connects it to both train stations), that's the great public transport option.

You can have a bus service that connects every area directly to every other area. But that means bus routes that meander about the place, like the 123, and have to share space with cars. And people complain that trips take too long and sit in traffic and are unreliable.

Faster, more reliable buses need more direct routes on dedicated lanes.

RayCun

The LUAS is also your best option to go from Drimnagh to the city centre, or the Mater hospital. Why should there be a bus service, let alone a bus service that gets road priority, that duplicates the LUAS connections?

RayCun

I suppose the simplest thing to do would be to make all the BusConnect changes, but add a new route - Route X.

Route X would run once an hour in each direction, and would stop at every current bus stop in Dublin. Don't want to lose the bus stop at the end of your road? You won't, with Route X! Want to get a bus from Raheny to Foxrock with no changes? From Lucan to Old Bawn with no changes? From Chapelizod to Castleknock, with stops in Rathmines, O'Connell Street, Fairview and Dun Laoghaire? You can, with Route X!

Macy0161

magicbastarder wrote:

Re traffic getting stuck behind cyclists, earlier in the summer on my commute into work, I saw a guy in a distinctively coloured audi (i.e. it was a shade of brown that looked like fermented ****) pulling a dick move on east wall road. We were still swapping places with each other passing leopardstown racecourse. If a car cannot go faster than a cyclist before 7:30am, over a distance of about 10km, it doesn't feed into a narrative of cyclists holding traffic up.

I join the N11 going home at the UCD flyover. I'm usually faster than the 46a's to Foxrock, and the 145 to Loughlinstown, or at least keeping pace, even on days I'm not particularly pushing on. However, part of this whole thing will be standard fares and cashless, which will reduce dwell times I guess.

wheelo01 wrote: »

If the planned money was put into the infrastructure with keeping the bus services, You still get a better service as they are talking about enforcing these bus/cycle lanes, yet an Garda Siochana will not be policing this, as they don't have the resources to police what they should be at the moment. Pump the money in, but the bus services don't necessarily need to change to achieve what the cyclist community would like (though they seem to have tied the whole plan together)

It doesn't, and we don't now, need people to enforce the bus and cycle lanes (or a whole raft of other traffic laws and tax/ insurance/ nct). The ANPR technology is already there but there's no sign of movement in this state.

My personal conclusion is that it would be politically toxic to actually enforce road traffic laws on motorists, which says an awful lot about the collective compliance and attitude of people who drive in this state!

wheelo01

The easiest way to get from Drimnagh to the SCR (Kelly's corner to aungier street in particular) is the 122, and approx 80% of Southside users get off between them stops. Also, the Luas does mot serve the Mater.
The fact is that the community currently has it, and uses it, and wants to keep it, not get two buses.

The Luas was built along very busy routes that Dublin bus already operated as a pet project, and will not be allowed to fail.

The Luas is also more costly to the city centre from Drimnagh.

I don't believe you are getting faster, more reliable buses in this plan.

Another option is to rid the city of cars, which will never happen.

This orbital plan was looked at as many as 20 years ago, and rejected as out of hand by the DOT.

So much of the cities congestion is also caused by the Luas interacting with traffic, but that seems to get ignored. Planning failures have been, and will continue to be a great cause of congestion, and this college green plaza will worsen it more.


Again, I'll say it the infrastructure and bus routes are separate things., and should be looked at separately.

RayCun

wheelo01 wrote: »

Another option is to rid the city of cars, which will never happen.
...
Again, I'll say it the infrastructure and bus routes are separate things., and should be looked at separately.

That's two things that are not going to happen. If this proposal is shot down, all that will happen is tinkering around the edges.

And it's funny, your argument against changes to bus routes is that people like what they have and don't want to change. That old, sick, infirm people can't walk to a new stop, they need exactly the stop they have now.

Which are precisely the arguments made for prioritising cars. People like being able to drive from their house to exactly where they want to go, they don't want to change. And the old, sick, infirm people can't be expected to take public transport, they should be able to drive wherever they want.

wheelo01 wrote: »

The easiest way to get from Drimnagh to the SCR (Kelly's corner to aungier street in particular) is the 122, and approx 80% of Southside users get off between them stops. Also, the Luas does mot serve the Mater.
The fact is that the community currently has it, and uses it, and wants to keep it, not get two buses.

How do you know that people are getting off at the SCR because that's where they want to go, and not just because that is the nearest stop from the 122 to where they want to go? There will be a D bus going from Drimnagh into the Liberties every 5 minutes under the Bus Connects plan - that's twice as frequent as the 122.

wheelo01 wrote: »

I don't believe you are getting faster, more reliable buses in this plan.

on what grounds?

wheelo01 wrote: »

This orbital plan was looked at as many as 20 years ago, and rejected as out of hand by the DOT.

This orbital plan? Based on high frequency buses with priority on major transport spokes, and orbital buses to connect the spokes?

wheelo01 wrote: »

So much of the cities congestion is also caused by the Luas interacting with traffic, but that seems to get ignored. Planning failures have been, and will continue to be a great cause of congestion, and this college green plaza will worsen it more.

The city's congestion is caused by a lot of people trying to get through a small space. If those people weren't carried on the LUAS, they'd be on buses and cars and the congestion would be worse.

You'd think, on the cycling forum, there'd be more awareness that the purpose of a transport policy should be to support the efficient transport of the most people, rather than to support everyone in their preferred transport mode.

cdaly_

Submission made with cycle infrastructure comments...

Harrybelafonte

No way I'd support the current changes to the network. OP mentions misinformation. The 67 and 1 buses for example will be affected detrimentally. There may be some scaremongering but a lot of these changes are not for the best.

Weepsie

wheelo01 wrote: »

So much of the cities congestion is also caused by the Luas interacting with traffic, but that seems to get ignored. Planning failures have been, and will continue to be a great cause of congestion, and this college green plaza will worsen it more.

.

Hmm, I'd say the congestion is down the sheer volume of people who unnecessarily make journeys in their private vehicles, who block up yellow boxes, who can't follow basic light sequences, who park in loading bays, bus lanes and cycle lanes. These vehicles are most often occupied by a single person too and are frequently travelling distances of no more 5 km which is doable on foot. up to 10 km is doable on bike for anyone really too.

Blaming congestion on the LUAS is nonsense. Until people get to grips with the fact cars are the problem and stop pointing the finger of blame everywhere else, they will prevail as the default mode of transport.