Investigation into 4000% increase in girls unhappy with their gender.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

I've read the premise now and the original figure is so low, it could only be explained with my reasoning above. 40 girls in 2009-2010 in a country the size of the UK is, practically speaking, zero.

I take you're going to accept that 40 girls a year on average is the true number of cases, since that's what it used to be, and everything over that is societal hysteria and the world falling apart. If that's the case, you should perhaps do a little research on statistics and how they can be manipulated.

I said all that (almost word for word as well) much earlier in the thread. I hope you get a more nuanced response than i did.

Malayalam

Deleted User wrote: »

I've read the premise now and the original figure is so low, it could only be explained with my reasoning above. 40 girls in 2009-2010 in a country the size of the UK is, practically speaking, zero.

I take you're going to accept that 40 girls a year on average is the true number of cases, since that's what it used to be, and everything over that is societal hysteria and the world falling apart. If that's the case, you should perhaps do a little research on statistics and how they can be manipulated.

You know Ads, feeling hatred for one's body based solely on its sex or feeling that you are born in the wrong body, to the extent that you would wish to completely alter that body, is actually quite a strong and unusual emotion. It is so highly destructive to the whole psyche,and I imagine it would be extremely maladaptive evolutionarily speaking in terms of being a human being. It is in essence an extraordinary state of affairs, though I agree that it possibly does exist to an extreme degree that requires medical intervention in rare cases. So 40 per annum seems like a reasonable number actually in the UK population, given that one is speaking of such a weighty issue.
In any event even if it was increasing so exponentially upon valid grounds I think that we should consider as a society first of all why that is, exactly, and second of all if we could possibly respond to that situation with the very least amount of catastrophic intervention possible, in all cases. First do no harm etc.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I said all that (almost word for word as well) much earlier in the thread. I hope you get a more nuanced response than i did.

I'm just basing it on my own experience of teaching in Vietnam, a country where kids will identify as whatever they like because no one cares, and it's certainly not the parents or some such influencing them.

From a total of around 200 grade 12 students this year, I've two girls and one boy, that I know of, who identify as or claim to be transgender. One's been saying it since I taught her in grade 6. Those are closer to the real numbers than 40 girls in an entire country, which is so beyond believability, it's amazing anyone could see it as anything but a severe lack of reporting.

Sure, there is some unnecessary influence going on from parents, but a "whopping 4000%" increase is just changing times.

Malayalam wrote: »

You know Ads, feeling hatred for one's body based solely on its sex or feeling that you are born in the wrong body, to the extent that you would wish to completely alter that body, is actually quite a strong and unusual emotion. It is so highly destructive to the whole psyche,and I imagine it would be extremely maladaptive evolutionarily speaking in terms of being a human being. It is in essence an extraordinary state of affairs, though I agree that it possibly does exist to an extreme degree that requires medical intervention in rare cases. So 40 per annum seems like a reasonable number actually in the UK population, given that one is speaking of such a weighty issue.
In any event even if it was increasing so exponentially upon valid grounds I think that we should consider as a society first of all why that is, exactly, and second of all if we could possibly respond to that situation with the very least amount of catastrophic intervention possible, in all cases. First do no harm etc.

You're dumb as hell.

Malayalam

Deleted User wrote: »

You're dumb as hell.

Nice one.

Malayalam

Malayalam wrote: »

Nice one.

You admitted to believing the old numbers are the real ones, with the new ones being some anomaly that society needs to fix.

It's been pointed out that societal acceptance has an obvious role to play here, you know, the whole "my parents won't disown me if I tell them" thing.


If you still want to argue that that plays no role and the old number is true, like you said two posts ago, you are and deserve to be called dumb.

Malayalam

Deleted User wrote: »

You admitted to believing the old numbers are the real ones, with the new ones being some anomaly that society needs to fix.

It's been pointed out that societal acceptance has an obvious role to play here, you know, the whole "my parents won't disown me if I tell them" thing.


If you still want to argue that that plays no role and the old number is true, like you said two posts ago, you are and deserve to be called dumb.

yeah, well you're not actually supposed to engage in ad hominen here for your kicks, or because you had a wild weekend, but whatever, it means I respect your view point all the less.

I do not know what would be a valid base number. Neither do you. Research shows a huge increase that very much concerns experts in the field, not just dumbos like me. Look at various pictures of mastectomies in young teenagers and mutilated arms and thighs in young adults, check out research on the long term effects of Lupron, and then tell me if you feel that this society is dealing well with gender dysphoria in children and young adults. Personally I think we could deal a lot more creatively and compassionately with people who are suffering from such distress. My first line of treatment would be the mind, the thoughts, the psyche, the source of the distress, rather than heaping pain upon pain with surgery and chemicals.

Odhinn

Malayalam wrote: »

yeah, well you're not actually supposed to engage in ad hominen here for your kicks, or because you had a wild weekend, but whatever, it means I respect your view point all the less.

I do not know what would be a valid base number. Neither do you. Research shows a huge increase that very much concerns experts in the field, not just dumbos like me. Look at various pictures of mastectomies in young teenagers and mutilated arms and thighs in young adults, check out research on the long term effects of Lupron, and then tell me if you feel that this society is dealing well with gender dysphoria in children and young adults. Personally I think we could deal a lot more creatively and compassionately with people who are suffering from such distress. My first line of treatment would be the mind, the thoughts, the psyche, the source of the distress, rather than heaping pain upon pain with surgery and chemicals.

You realise that psychological assesments take place before surgery etc?

Malayalam

Odhinn wrote: »

You realise that psychological assesments take place before surgery etc?

You realise hormones are often prescribed after one visit?

Malayalam

Malayalam wrote: »

yeah, well you're not actually supposed to engage in ad hominen here for your kicks, or because you had a wild weekend, but whatever, it means I respect your view point all the less.

I'm not engaging in ad hominems. I'm engaging in plain old insults. An ad hominem is when I say "You are dumb, therefore your point is wrong." I'm saying "Your point is wrong, therefore you are dumb."

Malayalam wrote: »

I do not know what would be a valid base number. Neither do you. Research shows a huge increase that very much concerns experts in the field, not just dumbos like me. Look at various pictures of mastectomies in young teenagers and mutilated arms and thighs in young adults, check out research on the long term effects of Lupron, and then tell me if you feel that this society is dealing well with gender dysphoria in children and young adults. Personally I think we could deal a lot more creatively and compassionately with people who are suffering from such distress. My first line of treatment would be the mind, the thoughts, the psyche, the source of the distress, rather than heaping pain upon pain with surgery and chemicals.

This emotive nonsense does not help in a statistical argument. It's what you filled your last one with and is what prompted my response.

I'm off to bed.

Malayalam

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not engaging in ad hominems. I'm engaging in plain old insults. An ad hominem is when I say "You are dumb, therefore your point is wrong." I'm saying "Your point is wrong, therefore you are dumb."



This emotive nonsense does not help in a statistical argument. It's what you filled your last one with and is what prompted my response.

I'm off to bed.

Good man. Off ya go.

Odhinn

Malayalam wrote: »

You realise hormones are often prescribed after one visit?

You've some source for that.......?

Malayalam

Odhinn wrote: »

You've some source for that.......?

I read widely about this subject and follow commentary about it on social media platforms. Prescription after one visit is commonly reported.

Odhinn

Malayalam wrote: »

I read widely about this subject and follow commentary about it on social media platforms. Prescription after one visit is commonly reported.

So you've claimed. Do you have a source for that?

ceadaoin.

Odhinn wrote: »

You realise that psychological assesments take place before surgery etc?

It doesn't matter how many assessments are performed , a child should never be able to consent to such life altering, unnecessary surgery and pharmaceutical interventions.

Malayalam

ceadaoin. wrote: »

It doesn't matter how many assessments are performed , a child should never be able to consent to such life altering, unnecessary surgery and pharmaceutical interventions.

Thanks ceadaoin.

Odhinn

Malayalam wrote: »

Thanks ceadaoin.

Any luck finding a source for that claim yet?

Malayalam

Odhinn wrote: »

Any luck finding a source for that claim yet?

Lisa Marchiano works with a lot of transitioning people.

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that young people are receiving hormone prescriptions without careful assessment. In the study of 200 detransitioned women, 65% of them responded that they had received no therapy before starting hormones.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00332925.2017.1350804

Going to an official source, the NHS will give hormones at second meeting.
https://gic.nhs.uk/appointments/first-appointment/

Many children are self treating with hormones purchased online, ie with no assessment or meeting

Some teenagers denied hormones buy them off the internet, which experts say is deeply concerning. “It’s really common, certainly with the older teens,” said Green. “A lot of them self-medicate because they just can’t wait and we know it’s pretty much endemic. It’s not illegal, but it’s not recommended.”

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/11/transgender-nhs-doctor-prescribing-sex-hormones-children-uk

Google it yourself if you want anymore.

Malayalam

By the way this is the level of narcissism and victimhood being encouraged in young people...

eyerer

Penis envy and Freud was right all along?

wexie

Malayalam wrote: »

By the way this is the level of narcissism and victimhood being encouraged in young people...

maybe he/she/they should read up on what the definition of cosmetic is

cosmetic

adjective
1.relating to treatment intended to restore or improve a person's appearance.
"cosmetic surgery" synonyms: beautifying, improving, non-medical; More
2.affecting only the appearance of something rather than its substance.
"the reform package was merely a cosmetic exercise"
synonyms: superficial, surface, skin-deep, outward, exterior, external
"alterations to the original building have been largely cosmetic"

Odhinn

Malayalam wrote: »

Lisa Marchiano works with a lot of transitioning people.

And refers to anecdotal evidence. Very reassuring.


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00332925.2017.1350804

Malayalam wrote: »

Going to an official source, the NHS will give hormones at second meeting.
https://gic.nhs.uk/appointments/first-appointment/

...after an assesment has been made. An assesment they would presumably have to be referred for.

Malayalam wrote: »

Many children are self treating with hormones purchased online, ie with no assessment or meeting

An illicit practice.

ceadaoin.

Odhinn wrote: »

And refers to anecdotal evidence. Very reassuring.


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00332925.2017.1350804
[/URL]


...after an assesment has been made. An assesment they would presumably have to be referred for.






An illicit practice.

The puberty blocker which is used off label in kids has been linked to numerous long term health problems


https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

Also, if the person never goes through puberty and is then placed on cross sex hormones, they will be permanently infertile and never grow to their full potential physically, and the effects on brain development are unknown.

Given that 60-90% of trans identified children grow up to be happy with their birth sex and not trans, how is it ethical that a child should be able to consent to this? We don't allow children to consent to various things for a reason. Why is this being treated so differently?

ceadaoin.

Also, this is the type of comments and abuse that a mother posting on Twitter about adopting the "watchful waiting" approach got. As it turns out this was the right thing to do as her daughter no longer identifies as trans. Luckily for her she can progress and develop normally due to not being placed on dangerous medication

The changes your child will experience in puberty are permanent. Blockers are only there to bide time. I hope your kid survives your abuse and doesn't off themselves, they deserve better. But when they stop talking to you, you'll deserve it."

"I really hope your kid doesn’t commit suicide as a teenager. I hope they cut you out of their life and bloom into an amazing adult."

"You’re the problem here. Your kid will hate you if they don’t commit Suicide first."

"Because your bigotry about being trans is far more important than your child's wellbeing and happiness. How dare you call your child ' your baby' when you are denying their agency and true self. How about supporting, instead of controlling your child?"

This is a form of online grooming happening to these kids by people like those quoted and goes some way towards explaining the large increase IMO.

How Soon Is Now

I'm surprised the thread has gotten this far without someone coming in telling everyone how wrong they are!

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Malayalam wrote: »

By the way this is the level of narcissism and victimhood being encouraged in young people...

That’s mad. It’s standard for there to be a hierarchy of surgeries and it doesn’t have to be a cosmetic surgery to be put off. I had surgery that I really needed for medical reasons put off a few times because more pressing cases presented. Cancer surgery is top of the heap because time is truly of the essence. Yes, transitioning folk might have mental distress but when tumours shed hundreds of thousands of cells a day, it’s easy to see why cancer surgery comes first. Every day is a day closer to potential spread.

deirdremf

Malayalam wrote: »

The Minister for Equality in Britain, Penny Mordaunt, who surely as much as anybody would have sympathy for Trans peoples, given that it's her job to do so, has opened an urgent investigation into why there has been such a phenomenal increase in girls seeking gender reassignment - a whopping 4000 - 4500% increase in less than 8 years.

I'd ask two questions before starting a thread like this
1 - what the overall numbers were at the start, and what they are now
2 - what are the relevant numbers for boys wanting to go the other way?


Get a bit of context, and then start the discussion.
Ot maybe your situation is that you don't like this at all, under any circumstances?

JohnMc1

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Future generations will come with neither male or female body parts they will be purchased as "addons" when the person decides what they wanna be!

And appropriate hormones will be downloadable content.

Malayalam

deirdremf wrote: »

I'd ask two questions before starting a thread like this
1 - what the overall numbers were at the start, and what they are now
2 - what are the relevant numbers for boys wanting to go the other way?


Get a bit of context, and then start the discussion.
Ot maybe your situation is that you don't like this at all, under any circumstances?

The links I posted state the numbers.
Boys have increased by about 1250% in the same time period. The numbers are available, just google. I cannot fill you in on all the details.

Even the fact that the government spokesperson when commenting on the investigation uses the term ''Assigned female at birth'' is a cause for concern. This is an ideologically loaded phrase that has not been agreed upon by the members of society - it has been foisted unilaterally on people. A newborn is either female, male or very occasionally intersex at birth. They are not ''assigned'' a hypothetical or tentative gender. This is nonsense, in the original sense of that word.

I have plenty of context, and have given some here and much more in other threads, but look around at where you are, and at the discussions trending on the front page of boards, especially AH - is deep context a requirement you demand before people are posting generally or just with respect to certain issues?

Here's a bit more context - If young girls experiencing gender dysphoria and being referred to clinics has increased by 4000 - 4500% in 8 years is the healthy and expected consequence of the normalisation of the issue so that they are comfortable to come forward, then where are the corresponding increases one would expect to see under those same circumstances among all other demographics - young adults, the middle-aged, the elderly? Such increases are not emerging in the statistics - instead the evidence points to a social contagion among children and young teens such as happens with eating disorders for example. Research also tracks a concomitance of mental health issues in up to two thirds of these cases. ADHD seems to be the largest comorbidity.

A Finnish study in 2015 was among the first to call attention to the unusual statistics

The number of referrals exceeded expectations in light of epidemiological knowledge. Natal girls were markedly overrepresented among applicants. Severe psychopathology preceding onset of gender dysphoria was common. Autism spectrum problems were very common

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4396787/

Evidence and the experience of experts in the field suggests again and again that something is amiss. It's not just me being randomly prejudicial or bigoted, much as some might like to dismiss it as such.

PlaneSpeeking

Malayalam wrote: »

By the way this is the level of narcissism and victimhood being encouraged in young people...

Holy f**king Jesus, how the hell do you get SO arrogant that you put yourself above someone dying of cancer ????

Widdershins

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I'm not qualified to discuss what is and isnt a mental health issue and i doubt you are either. The professionals involved dont consider it a mental health issue so i go with them.

There are professionals who do consider it a mental health issue. It's clear they are not alone in feeling too intimidated to speak out. The OP included details of one such expert and her research.