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Dave Keating - Killarney
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Golfing is a totally different business to most, asking someone to do a report based on interviews with the individual parties and him not knowing and sometimes understanding the club business model makes the recommendations a ticking exercise. If you pay someone to do a report they will give you a report and will try to make it prove its value, I’ve seen hundreds of these reports and very little have much value or change anything afterwards, just look at GUI reports, totally pointless.
I've highlighted the issue and its not the report, its people doing nothing with the report.0 -
Cormac was assistant pro to Dave Keating for a short while.
He also worked in the middle East at a club.
I would have been happy for dk to stay as our pro but if the club can't afford him what option had they
Did he have management duties in the Middle East?
The issue with Killarney is not that the costs are too high but revenues are not high enough, reducing services given by the professional staff and cutting their incomes are not going to increase revenue.
The number of inbound visitors from the US has nearly doubled since 2012, with a significant amount staying in Killarney. For a club to have financial concerns with such clientele on their doorstep is a big issue and ultimately the management council are responsible. Cutting, cutting and more cutting won't work.
The question that needs to be asked is do the management council have any clue at all?0 -
ShivasIrons wrote: »Did he have management duties in the Middle East?
The issue with Killarney is not that the costs are too high but revenues are not high enough, reducing services given by the professional staff and cutting their incomes are not going to increase revenue.
The number of inbound visitors from the US has nearly doubled since 2012, with a significant amount staying in Killarney. For a club to have financial concerns with such clientele on their doorstep is a big issue and ultimately the management council are responsible. Cutting, cutting and more cutting won't work.
The question that needs to be asked is do the management council have any clue at all?
Is it not sensible to try and lower your costs where possible
I suppose it depends what value you put on your club pro.
Please inform us all how to increase revenues in killarney gc or Any other club for that matter.
A lot of criticism aimed at our management council, I just can't see why they deserve all the criticism. Surely our gm is responsible for the running of our club whether in Good times or bad0 -
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Please inform us all how to increase revenues in killarney gc or Any other club for that matter.
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Cutting services will not increase revenue, in fact it may even have a small effect on reducing revenue because your (perceived) service levels may fall. As you stated earlier though, it would be unwise not to look at the services and get the best value for money possible.
Increasing revenue can come from three or four sources:
-Increased Green Fees (either more footfall or higher prices)
-Membership (either increased annual sub or more Members)
-Bar & Shop (usually almost directly correlated to no. of Members and Visitors)
How do you do this? Have a Marketing Plan. This should identify:
- Who are your Target market (visitors and members)
- How do you find them
- What are visitors looking for when they come
- What are members looking for when the join your Club
- What will happen if you increase/ decrease rates (Green Fees & Annual Subs)
- Advertising campaigns (Social Media Strategy/ Exhibitions/ Print Media etc. i.e. the places you've identified in Step 2 above)
- And so on
I don't know anything about Killarney other than they are in a great location for American visitors to play and I'm really surprised that they have an issue with falling US Green Fee income.
I also disagree with OllieBoy when he said:
"But if the members elected the committee to run the club then you need to trust them as they have all the facts and usually can’t share them with members."
The reason most committees in any type of Club (sports or otherwise) fall into poor regard is that they conduct their business in secrecy. In reality, there is very little information that is of a sensitive nature that needs to be withheld from Members. A good Committee will issue information to the Members on a regular (e.g. monthly) basis outlining what they have done and what they intend to do. When Committee business is cloaked in secrecy, it's a great opportunity for the sh1t-stirrers to say what they want. The Committee may well be doing excellent work but if they don't tell the Members, they're leaving themselves wide open to inuendo and rumour...0 -
ChippingSodbury wrote: »Cutting services will not increase revenue, in fact it may even have a small effect on reducing revenue because your (perceived) service levels may fall.
Tbf, cutting costs doesnt have to mean cutting services.
Typically there will be a lot of waste and inefficiency in a golf club as the incentives just aren't there to go after it.
There are no shares or profits, staff get paid either way so you need to GC to force the issue or get lucky and have a well motivated, experienced GM who does it off their own volition.
Simple things can result in huge savings to a golf club without anyone noticing other than the Treasurer. Stuff like lights left on all day, AC on with doors/windows open, outdoor heaters on all day all adds up.
Even changing the dates of subscription payments can result in huge interest savings as many clubs will have an overdraft during the end of the season and they arent cheap.0 -
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Tbf, cutting costs doesnt have to mean cutting services.
Typically there will be a lot of waste and inefficiency in a golf club as the incentives just aren't there to go after it.
There are no shares or profits, staff get paid either way so you need to GC to force the issue or get lucky and have a well motivated, experienced GM who does it off their own volition.
Simple things can result in huge savings to a golf club without anyone noticing other than the Treasurer. Stuff like lights left on all day, AC on with doors/windows open, outdoor heaters on all day all adds up.
Even changing the dates of subscription payments can result in huge interest savings as many clubs will have an overdraft during the end of the season and they arent cheap.
I agree 100% with everything you've said. But reducing costs is only a small part of getting out of trouble: the much bigger incentive is to increase income and that's much more difficult to do. In general, clubs that have a well though-out Marketing plan (and follow it) do really well: clubs that try to rely on their position on a subjective 100 Top Clubs etc. list do poorly.
Just look at the transformation in Lahinch in 10 years. They've gone from golf club in trouble to making €2.4m annually on Green Fees. They set out a plan, got a good GM and followed the plan. It's not rocket science but it is hard work0 -
ChippingSodbury wrote: »Cutting services will not increase revenue, in fact it may even have a small effect on reducing revenue because your (perceived) service levels may fall. As you stated earlier though, it would be unwise not to look at the services and get the best value for money possible.
Increasing revenue can come from three or four sources:
-Increased Green Fees (either more footfall or higher prices)
-Membership (either increased annual sub or more Members)
-Bar & Shop (usually almost directly correlated to no. of Members and Visitors)
How do you do this? Have a Marketing Plan. This should identify:
- Who are your Target market (visitors and members)
- How do you find them
- What are visitors looking for when they come
- What are members looking for when the join your Club
- What will happen if you increase/ decrease rates (Green Fees & Annual Subs)
- Advertising campaigns (Social Media Strategy/ Exhibitions/ Print Media etc. i.e. the places you've identified in Step 2 above)
- And so on
I don't know anything about Killarney other than they are in a great location for American visitors to play and I'm really surprised that they have an issue with falling US Green Fee income.
I also disagree with OllieBoy when he said:
"But if the members elected the committee to run the club then you need to trust them as they have all the facts and usually can’t share them with members."
The reason most committees in any type of Club (sports or otherwise) fall into poor regard is that they conduct their business in secrecy. In reality, there is very little information that is of a sensitive nature that needs to be withheld from Members. A good Committee will issue information to the Members on a regular (e.g. monthly) basis outlining what they have done and what they intend to do. When Committee business is cloaked in secrecy, it's a great opportunity for the sh1t-stirrers to say what they want. The Committee may well be doing excellent work but if they don't tell the Members, they're leaving themselves wide open to inuendo and rumour...
So you expect the committee to share salaries, employment contracts, legal issues and 3rd party contracts even though these contracts have clauses in them. Their is a lot of stuff even officers can't share with committees not mind members and its also the reason officers have insurance.
100% agree that communication is important with members but at the end of the day its a business and directors don't go around telling employees and customers sensitive information.0 -
ChippingSodbury wrote: »I agree 100% with everything you've said. But reducing costs is only a small part of getting out of trouble: the much bigger incentive is to increase income and that's much more difficult to do. In general, clubs that have a well though-out Marketing plan (and follow it) do really well: clubs that try to rely on their position on a subjective 100 Top Clubs etc. list do poorly.
Just look at the transformation in Lahinch in 10 years. They've gone from golf club in trouble to making €2.4m annually on Green Fees. They set out a plan, got a good GM and followed the plan. It's not rocket science but it is hard work
This is a really bad example, Lahinch provides golf to a totally different market and they were coming from a low base and it's links.
The golf membership marked is a fairly fix sizes market, so growing memberships is extremely hard without other clubs going out of business, GM can't change any of this and a GM in a members club is the Monday to Friday point of contact but every decision is made by the committees.
So, unfortunately, cutting cost is the only option for nearly all clubs, only a small handful of clubs have increase income in the last 10 years and spent a fortune trying to grow in comparison to growth rates. Clubs that grew in members usually change their membership model style but down income in general.
At the end of the day, does a pro really bring any value to a club, is his cost justifiable, I think not and in the US market clubs don't have pros in retail but attach golfing schools to clubs and keep the retail business to themselves and only sell clothes and golfing accessories. Irish golf clubs are currently moving to this same model.0 -
This is a really bad example, Lahinch provides golf to a totally different market and they were coming from a low base and it's links.
The golf membership marked is a fairly fix sizes market, so growing memberships is extremely hard without other clubs going out of business, GM can't change any of this and a GM in a members club is the Monday to Friday point of contact but every decision is made by the committees.
So, unfortunately, cutting cost is the only option for nearly all clubs, only a small handful of clubs have increase income in the last 10 years and spent a fortune trying to grow in comparison to growth rates. Clubs that grew in members usually change their membership model style but down income in general.
At the end of the day, does a pro really bring any value to a club, is his cost justifiable, I think not and in the US market clubs don't have pros in retail but attach golfing schools to clubs and keep the retail business to themselves and only sell clothes and golfing accessories. Irish golf clubs are currently moving to this same model.
Unfortunately for golf clubs in Ireland, this has been the prevalent view and a disaster for most clubs, leading to the race to the bottom we've seen and poorer standards in many clubs leading many more to leave the clubs.
Since most think that cost is the reason why people play golf, when people stop playing golf they react by dropping prices. Yes there are a few who stop playing because of price but the majority don't.
The professional at a club is the heart and soul of golfing activities, they know the members inside out and help them enjoy golf more. The more enjoyable golf is the more people play. Do members who are enjoying golf, give up their membership? Do golfers who are improving stop playing? It's exceptionally disappointing that you don't see professionals adding value to a club. Clubs need more professionals. not less. Can you name the successful clubs in the US that don't have pros in retail and only golf schools? It's quite the opposite, in the high profile clubs, the best known personality and point of contact for most is the professional.
Killarney need an exceptional professional, Killarney is a club that needs leadership and purpose, what's going on there is only going to sink the club further.0 -
ShivasIrons wrote: »Unfortunately for golf clubs in Ireland, this has been the prevalent view and a disaster for most clubs, leading to the race to the bottom we've seen and poorer standards in many clubs leading many more to leave the clubs.
Since most think that cost is the reason why people play golf, when people stop playing golf they react by dropping prices. Yes there are a few who stop playing because of price but the majority don't.
The professional at a club is the heart and soul of golfing activities, they know the members inside out and help them enjoy golf more. The more enjoyable golf is the more people play. Do members who are enjoying golf, give up their membership? Do golfers who are improving stop playing? It's exceptionally disappointing that you don't see professionals adding value to a club. Clubs need more professionals. not less. Can you name the successful clubs in the US that don't have pros in retail and only golf schools? It's quite the opposite, in the high profile clubs, the best known personality and point of contact for most is the professional.
Killarney need an exceptional professional, Killarney is a club that needs leadership and purpose, what's going on there is only going to sink the club further.
I spent 10 days playing golf in Myrtle Beach and not one club had a pro, they had golfing schools but the club own the shop and business. They do not sell clubs because you have loads of other business in the area offering this service cheaper and better. Similar to McGuirks in Ireland, so maybe rural areas the pro might be need for this sort of service. This was the high end of the market but talking to people it was the norm.
If the pro is the heart of the club, then that club is in big trouble. Next you will be telling me the caterer is the brain of the club. Sorry for trying to be funny, but no man is bigger then any club and when he's gone, people move on very quickly to the next thing.
Do you know the average wage for a pro in a golf club in Ireland? The PGA who do a good job have really interesting figures on this and it makes for depressing reading for pros at clubs. A lot of their members agree that most clubs wont be able to afford pros in the next decade. Money is made in lessons and not selling products, hence the school model in the US.
Only one thing matters in a members club, the members. In most clubs the members don't use any other facility except the car park to the course to the computer and home.
I agree in relation to your point about pricing, but if you sit down and try to find growth in members you'll find those people think golf is to expensive hence why clubs drop prices and then trying to attract other members from more expensive clubs. This is a race to the bottom is damaging clubs but clubs can only or should only cut waste.
The issue and most of the current problems especially in a area like Killarney is to many golf courses. We need about 10% of them to disappear to protect the stronger clubs.
Anyway, this is always a better conversation at the bar and I think this thread as had enough.0 -
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Very strong retort sent by the GM via email to the members yesterday.
The upcoming AGM's should be interesting0 -
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One side is lying through their teeth.
Will be a big turnout for AGM I'd say.
Honestly don't know who to believe now. Have major doubts about both gm and committee
That's a pity. We had something vaguely similar in our Club fairly recently. All it does is create bad feeling and a split in the members.
Hopefully all will get sorted amicably.0 -
One side is lying through their teeth.
Will be a big turnout for AGM I'd say.
Honestly don't know who to believe now. Have major doubts about both gm and committee
Obviously not true in every case, but most of the time I'd go with the guy you are paying to do the job rather than the group of volunteers.
You get people with very strange intentions volunteering for committees...0 -
So golf guy you sound like a very knowledgeable interesting golf scribe . You sound like a newcomer to this beautiful ancient game of Golf ?
Firstly Golf Professionals add hugely to a club end of story.
They have probably the hardest job at a club and id like to know what planet you inhabit if you think that Golf is not a business.
How can clubs survive without professionals, be it Golf Professionals, Managers, Green Keepers, Caterers , all who have professional qualifications trained in their area of expertise .
With relation to what Club Professionals earn the facts of the matter are no one exactly knows what a club pro earns and surely it is their own business what they earn. They spend 4/5 years training to become PGA Professionals (also have to be Scratch or at the least very low Handicapp golfers) and more often than not it’s a 7 day a week job in high season. One would then factor in the fact that they are purely dependent on the weather , enough said.
Golf Club Professionals provide a much bigger service than just golf lessons and if you don’t realize that then you are very sadly misinformed and clueless .
With relation to the Killarney Golf situation if my memory serves me correctly Killarney did own the shop 4/5 years ago and proceeded to make a complete loss making enterprise with same. The shop was always poorly stocked and Dave Keating took it over and brought it up to a 5 star facility , through a lot of hard work and investment. You surely must be very naive Golf Guy or at least not be in the know of business models if you think just having a retail shop guarantees huge profits. This is a complete clueless assumption as like all successful business models, significant investment, shrewd buying , robust selling , impeccable customer service , outstanding and loyal staff , allied to long long hours are all must haves to stand any chance of making any kind of profit . Just to assume that because a professional has a retail shop he is making a fortune is complete and utter nonsense .
And in relation to the financial difficulties Killarney find themselves in , to fail to secure the services of the one person , due to cost cutting, who was actually making them money is ludicrous. As a longtime member of this club this is a laughable, stupid and cringeworthy decision. To get the best you probably have to pay a little bit more but when you have a Keyman you make sure you keep him not lose him. To all us members he was most courteous, obliging, knowledgeable and was just exemplary at his job. The services he provided were top class not to mention his knowledge of golf and his coaching manner and nous. To get a comparable professional will be a costlier and time consuming exercise.
To end Golf Guy for what it’s worth if you don’t want to be a member of a Club with a Golf Professional then maybe you should instead consider being a member of a pitch and putt club. ?0 -
Breakingbad18 wrote: »So golf guy you sound like a very knowledgeable interesting golf scribe . You sound like a newcomer to this beautiful ancient game of Golf ?
Firstly Golf Professionals add hugely to a club end of story.
They have probably the hardest job at a club and id like to know what planet you inhabit if you think that Golf is not a business.
How can clubs survive without professionals, be it Golf Professionals, Managers, Green Keepers, Caterers , all who have professional qualifications trained in their area of expertise .
With relation to what Club Professionals earn the facts of the matter are no one exactly knows what a club pro earns and surely it is their own business what they earn. They spend 4/5 years training to become PGA Professionals (also have to be Scratch or at the least very low Handicapp golfers) and more often than not it’s a 7 day a week job in high season. One would then factor in the fact that they are purely dependent on the weather , enough said.
Golf Club Professionals provide a much bigger service than just golf lessons and if you don’t realize that then you are very sadly misinformed and clueless .
With relation to the Killarney Golf situation if my memory serves me correctly Killarney did own the shop 4/5 years ago and proceeded to make a complete loss making enterprise with same. The shop was always poorly stocked and Dave Keating took it over and brought it up to a 5 star facility , through a lot of hard work and investment. You surely must be very naive Golf Guy or at least not be in the know of business models if you think just having a retail shop guarantees huge profits. This is a complete clueless assumption as like all successful business models, significant investment, shrewd buying , robust selling , impeccable customer service , outstanding and loyal staff , allied to long long hours are all must haves to stand any chance of making any kind of profit . Just to assume that because a professional has a retail shop he is making a fortune is complete and utter nonsense .
And in relation to the financial difficulties Killarney find themselves in , to fail to secure the services of the one person , due to cost cutting, who was actually making them money is ludicrous. As a longtime member of this club this is a laughable, stupid and cringeworthy decision. To get the best you probably have to pay a little bit more but when you have a Keyman you make sure you keep him not lose him. To all us members he was most courteous, obliging, knowledgeable and was just exemplary at his job. The services he provided were top class not to mention his knowledge of golf and his coaching manner and nous. To get a comparable professional will be a costlier and time consuming exercise.
To end Golf Guy for what it’s worth if you don’t want to be a member of a Club with a Golf Professional then maybe you should instead consider being a member of a pitch and putt club. ?
Thanks for that very informative essay. Just a couple of points if I may
1 I never said golf is not a business
2 hardest job at a golf club??
3 3 yr training. Just need to get to 4 handicap to turn pro. That's not exactly a high level of player these days.
4 when club owned shop they paid dk and his staff to run it. So maybe do and staff must be partially to blame if in fact it was losing money back then. Regarding the stock levels at that time again all dks responsibility as head pro.
And lastly
I never said I didn't want a club pro in killarney.i assume you will tell all the members in LAHINCH to join a p&p club as they have no pro.
Maybe check some of your facts before ranting that drivle0 -
Well Golf Guy, Lahinch do actually have a professional , Donal McSweeney , check your facts, affiliated with the club. To blame DAVE and his staff for poor stock levels when Killarney shop was run by club clearly indicates that you have a problem with Dave and your uninformed nonsense. How could the pro shop be stocked that time when the club could not afford to buy stock. I remember it well actually as I was waiting for a driver for a long time . So on this I suggest you check your facts. You obviously are not very experienced in the golf game to be coming out with such amateurish misguided comments. Dave Keating was the one thing that was right with the way the operation was run. The Council obviously have not a clue to leave a man of that stature to slip through their net. I have no intention getting into a slanging match with you. I took umberage with your comment about a club not needing PGA Professionals and I stand behind everything I say 100 per cent about Dave’s tenure in Killarney and for sure I’m not the only member saying this. He has huge support and the general feeling is one that thinks the council just haven’t a clue what they are at. You seem to be fitting right in to this category.0
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Breakingbad18 wrote: »Well Golf Guy, Lahinch do actually have a professional , Donal McSweeney , check your facts, affiliated with the club. To blame DAVE and his staff for poor stock levels when Killarney shop was run by club clearly indicates that you have a problem with Dave and your uninformed nonsense. How could the pro shop be stocked that time when the club could not afford to buy stock. I remember it well actually as I was waiting for a driver for a long time . So on this I suggest you check your facts. You obviously are not very experienced in the golf game to be coming out with such amateurish misguided comments. Dave Keating was the one thing that was right with the way the operation was run. The Council obviously have not a clue to leave a man of that stature to slip through their net. I have no intention getting into a slanging match with you. I took umberage with your comment about a club not needing PGA Professionals and I stand behind everything I say 100 per cent about Dave’s tenure in Killarney and for sure I’m not the only member saying this. He has huge support and the general feeling is one that thinks the council just haven’t a clue what they are at. You seem to be fitting right in to this category.
Uninformed nonsense, amateurish misguided and clueless. Your argument would be better served without all these remarks.0 -
Breakingbad18 wrote: »Well Golf Guy, Lahinch do actually have a professional , Donal McSweeney , check your facts, affiliated with the club..
I have no issue with dk . Actually I was a customer of his for lessons.
I just don't see why u believe losing Dave is such bad business for killarney. He will be replaced by another top pro at a cheaper rate to the golf club.
Already I know of 2 of Ireland's elite golf pros waiting to apply.
If the council are so clueless as you say I can assume u will go forward to replace them at the AGM.
The club need somebody to run the shop as a service it doesn't have to be a highly paid pro that is my opinion no need to get upset when some members may not agree with you
Killarney could also just get a pro to affiliate with the club like lahinch do hence save money.0 -
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Breakingbad18 wrote: »Well Golf Guy, Lahinch do actually have a professional , Donal McSweeney , check your facts, affiliated with the club..
I have no issue with dk . Actually I was a customer of his for lessons.
I just don't see why u believe losing Dave is such bad business for killarney. He will be replaced by another top pro at a cheaper rate to the golf club.
Already I know of 2 of Ireland's elite golf pros waiting to apply.
If the council are so clueless as you say I can assume u will go forward to replace them at the AGM.
The club need somebody to run the shop as a service it doesn't have to be a highly paid pro that is my opinion no need to get upset when some members may not agree with you
Killarney could also just get a pro to affiliate with the club like lahinch do hence save money.
You’re seriously mistaken to think that you’ll get a better professional for less money.
You’re also seriously mistaken to think that Killarney can run a shop themselves and make it a success. They made a mess of it only a few years ago. Do the council not remember this?
Which member of a golf club staff do most golfers see the most?0 -
ShivasIrons wrote: »You’re seriously mistaken to think that you’ll get a better professional for less money.
You’re also seriously mistaken to think that Killarney can run a shop themselves and make it a success. They made a mess of it only a few years ago. Do the council not remember this?
Which member of a golf club staff do most golfers see the most?
If the club hired the right candidate to manage shop, I believe there is money to be made for the club in the same way ballyb, tralee, Waterville, old head and lahinch and most resort clubs do.
Pretty sure dk or his replacement won't be spending his days in the shop so it's their staff members meet most. It was d Frazer or Donna were the face u saw most in killarney0 -
#bringbackdave
Fiery AGM last night!0 -
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A lot of talking but nothing agreed or improved after last night.
Thought the Anne c gave a very detailed breakdown of the contract negotiations.
Overall I thought it got very personal towards Anne and especially the chairman.
Only 1 brave sole going on to management council which still leaves us 3 short0 -
I see an announcement today on a replacement for David Keating, a management company with no experience of running a golf shop.
The General Manager left a few weeks ago too, it looks a golf club in crisis. Wonder what the membership think of their management council?
It doesn't look like the future is bright for Killarney, is it too big to fail?0 -
ShivasIrons wrote: »I see an announcement today on a replacement for David Keating, a management company with no experience of running a golf shop.
The General Manager left a few weeks ago too, it looks a golf club in crisis. Wonder what the membership think of their management council?
It doesn't look like the future is bright for Killarney, is it too big to fail?
Pretty sure the management company have run pro shops in some of the other clubs they manage.
Our GM let himself down at the AGM and really had no option but to leave in most people's opinion.
Top class pro running the driving range along side major investment in driving range and course improvements
All very positive Imo.0 -
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Pretty sure the management company have run pro shops in some of the other clubs they manage.
Our GM let himself down at the AGM and really had no option but to leave in most people's opinion.
Top class pro running the driving range along side major investment in driving range and course improvements
All very positive Imo.
Which clubs are they?
It would seem in that the view of the council in Killarney is that Dave Keating was wrong, the GM was wrong, the pros that turned down the job were wrong. Have they considered that they are the ones that are wrong?0
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