Dave Keating - Killarney

Benildus

Sad to hear that David Keating, the Pro in Killarney is finishing up in the club next month after nearly 12 years there.



No firm word yet on any potential replacement

golfguy1

The club will struggle to replace him with the package that is on offer
Courses are in poor condition and a major drop off in green fees

Pat Joe Whelehan

Very disappointing news for Killarney. One of the best. He would be a big addition to any club. Does anyone know where is is moving to?

golfguy1

Pat Joe Whelehan wrote: »

Very disappointing news for Killarney. One of the best. He would be a big addition to any club. Does anyone know where is is moving to?

Not really sure what any pro brings in terms of value to a club.
They get paid a retainer by the club to run a shop in most cases for their own benefit financially.

Benildus

golfguy1 wrote: »

Not really sure what any pro brings in terms of value to a club.
They get paid a retainer by the club to run a shop in most cases for their own benefit financially.

It would be highly unusual for a big club to not have a club pro though

golfguy1

Benildus wrote: »

It would be highly unusual for a big club to not have a club pro though

Unusual maybe.
But I can see many clubs in the future not have club pros costing them money when it is so difficult financially for clubs, killarney might be a "big" club but not exactly a well off club

ShivasIrons

golfguy1 wrote: »

Not really sure what any pro brings in terms of value to a club.
They get paid a retainer by the club to run a shop in most cases for their own benefit financially.

Here's one of many, golfers who are improving and enjoying their golf don't stop playing and give up their membership. A professional gives lessons to help golfers improve.



Professional golfers help golfers enjoy their game more. Clubs really need to use their professionals much more.



As for your second point, are you suggesting that a professional running a shop should run it at a loss?

golfguy1

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Here's one of many, golfers who are improving and enjoying their golf don't stop playing and give up their membership. A professional gives lessons to help golfers improve.



Professional golfers help golfers enjoy their game more. Clubs really need to use their professionals much more.



As for your second point, are you suggesting that a professional running a shop should run it at a loss?

My point is not that pros don't serve a purpose.
Of course they are available to teach golf to the members.
But why should a golf pro be paid €15000-€70000 retainer in some cases.
As for pros running shop at a loss I never suggested that. Of course they need to be profitable.
I just don't see a benefit to a golf club in paying a pro. I personally would like to see the money in killarney golf club going into the course and let the pro fend for himself In the shop along side his teaching income

ShivasIrons

golfguy1 wrote: »

My point is not that pros don't serve a purpose.
Of course they are available to teach golf to the members.
But why should a golf pro be paid €15000-€70000 retainer in some cases.
As for pros running shop at a loss I never suggested that. Of course they need to be profitable.
I just don't see a benefit to a golf club in paying a pro. I personally would like to see the money in killarney golf club going into the course and let the pro fend for himself In the shop along side his teaching income

Let's have a quick look at the services a professional brings to a club


Advice on all aspects of the game, lessons to members, club teams, juniors etc, knowledge on rules etc, marketing, member retention and recruitment, running tee sheets, competitions and more.


Now, if you expect this service should be given free, then you should expect everyone to work for free. I don't see accountants getting up at 6 on weekend mornings to work and I don't see them working for free either.


Imagine volunteers at a club had to do all the work that the pro does?



It is not possible to do all this work for a club without a retainer, most of the pro's time is given to club duties and not retailing or teaching. Any pro not getting a retainer will go broke very quickly.


Do clubs not want the people working in their clubs to be successful? Would you prefer your pro to be driving in the car park in a beat up 10 year old ford fiesta or that they are really good at what they do and are financially successful

golfguy1

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Let's have a quick look at the services a professional brings to a club


Advice on all aspects of the game, lessons to members, club teams, juniors etc, knowledge on rules etc, marketing, member retention and recruitment, running tee sheets, competitions and more.


Now, if you expect this service should be given free, then you should expect everyone to work for free. I don't see accountants getting up at 6 on weekend mornings to work and I don't see them working for free either.


Imagine volunteers at a club had to do all the work that the pro does?



It is not possible to do all this work for a club without a retainer, most of the pro's time is given to club duties and not retailing or teaching. Any pro not getting a retainer will go broke very quickly.


Do clubs not want the people working in their clubs to be successful? Would you prefer your pro to be driving in the car park in a beat up 10 year old ford fiesta or that they are really good at what they do and are financially

Club pros at most clubs do as u mentioned. But u must also realise they have a premises given to them usually rent/rates/elec free of charge which I imagine would be the equivalent of €15000 upwards.
When u add these benefits to a retainer they are hugely rewarded.

No other staff ie greenkeeper,bar, sec manager get extra benefits on top of their wage.

ShivasIrons

golfguy1 wrote: »

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Club pros at most clubs do as u mentioned. But u must also realise they have a premises given to them usually rent/rates/elec free of charge which I imagine would be the equivalent of €15000 upwards.
When u add these benefits to a retainer they are hugely rewarded.

No other staff ie greenkeeper,bar, sec manager get extra benefits on top of their wage.

The greenkeeper doesn't pay his staff from his earnings, neither does the bar manager and certainly the manager doesn't either.



The pro has staff to pay.



15,000 is 300 a week, most pros work 70-80 hours a week, would you get up at 5 or 6 on weekend mornings to run a competition for 3.50 an hour?

golfguy1

ShivasIrons wrote: »

golfguy1 wrote: »

The greenkeeper doesn't pay his staff from his earnings, neither does the bar manager and certainly the manager doesn't either.



The pro has staff to pay.



15,000 is 300 a week, most pros work 70-80 hours a week, would you get up at 5 or 6 on weekend mornings to run a competition for 3.50 an hour?

Lots of retailers work 6 days a week but nobody gives them rent and bills free premises plus a retainer on top of what they make in profit every yr.
Also remember they earn €20-€50 an hr from lessons.
Just my opinion but that seems an excessively good deal for golf clubs that are struggling to break even every yr

ShivasIrons

golfguy1 wrote: »

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Lots of retailers work 6 days a week but nobody gives them rent and bills free premises plus a retainer on top of what they make in profit every yr.
Also remember they earn €20-€50 an hr from lessons.
Just my opinion but that seems an excessively good deal for golf clubs that are struggling to break even every yr

The retailers you talk about, don't have to look after the first tee, run competitions, greet members and visitors, help Mrs. Murphy with her broken caddy car etc. They have all their time to retail.


When pros are teaching they must pay someone else to look after the pro shop.


If the pros are getting such a good deal, why is David Keating leaving Killarney?

golfguy1

ShivasIrons wrote: »

golfguy1 wrote: »

The retailers you talk about, don't have to look after the first tee, run competitions, greet members and visitors, help Mrs. Murphy with her broken caddy car etc. They have all their time to retail.


When pros are teaching they must pay someone else to look after the pro shop.


If the pros are getting such a good deal, why is David Keating leaving Killarney?

He and the management committee could not agree a financial package. From what I've heard deal was a fair package for both Dave and the club

ShivasIrons

golfguy1 wrote: »

ShivasIrons wrote: »

He and the management committee could not agree a financial package. From what I've heard deal was a fair package for both Dave and the club

If it was fair to him, why would he leave?

golfguy1

ShivasIrons wrote: »

golfguy1 wrote: »

If it was fair to him, why would he leave?

That's a question for him??
The club is under financial pressure and couldn't afford to maintain his original contract

Benildus

Anyway, lets hope someone like Dan Sugrue (ex assistant in Killarney under Dave and current Pro in Dooks) would be interested in the position.

Other ex-assistant pros such as Ian Colleran in Newcastlewest could also be tempted

golfguy1

Benildus wrote: »

Anyway, lets hope someone like Dan Sugrue (ex assistant in Killarney under Dave and current Pro in Dooks) would be interested in the position.

Other ex-assistant pros such as Ian Colleran in Newcastlewest could also be tempted

Can't see Dan leaving dooks.
Ian is just settling in at Newcastle west and living closer to his home town so not sure he would be to interested in moving back. I fancy John sure he to get the job.
Also heard rumour they may not look for a pro and just have staff run the shop with a shop manager.

Benildus

golfguy1 wrote: »

Can't see Dan leaving dooks.
Ian is just settling in at Newcastle west and living closer to his home town so not sure he would be to interested in moving back. I fancy John sure he to get the job.
Also heard rumour they may not look for a pro and just have staff run the shop with a shop manager.

Is Maurice O'Meara still in Dooks or double jobbing with the Kerry Gaa commercial role? Him and Dan are close so it would be a factor



Do you mean John Sugrue? where is he these days?

golfguy1

Benildus wrote: »

Is Maurice O'Meara still in Dooks or double jobbing with the Kerry Gaa commercial role? Him and Dan are close so it would be a factor



Do you mean John Sugrue? where is he these days?

Maurice has left dooks. Dooks is a club on the up. Big plans for course development and driving range in the near future.
Add the above to a very busy green fee (american golf tours). It looks more attractive offer than killarney right now.

Yes meant John sugrue.
He is assistant pro/caddy master in tralee

Benildus

A lot of disappointment being voiced by the members about Dave leaving the club and also being very critical of the Management Council's role in it.

golfguy1

Benildus wrote: »

A lot of disappointment being voiced by the members about Dave leaving the club and also being very critical of the Management Council's role in it.

It is very simple, he was offered a financial package to stay on, he turned it down.
Club simply can't afford to maintain his current contract.
The council have to do the best for the club with what money is available.
My main concern would be the courses which are very poor currently.

Benildus

If that's the case then the management council need to provide an update to members about the current situation - the recent letter regarding Dave leaving said nothing apart from wishing him the best etc etc and the latest newsletter was very short of details about the financial situation.

I believe an EGM should be called.

golfguy1

Benildus wrote: »

If that's the case then the management council need to provide an update to members about the current situation - the recent letter regarding Dave leaving said nothing apart from wishing him the best etc etc and the latest newsletter was very short of details about the financial situation.

I believe an EGM should be called.

An EGM because a member of staff left the club?????
Contract negotiations happen in all jobs and are not always agreed.
The next pro/shop manager in will do the same job as dk

Benildus

golfguy1 wrote: »

An EGM because a member of staff left the club?????
Contract negotiations happen in all jobs and are not always agreed.
The next pro/shop manager in will do the same job as dk

An EGM because the full state of the financial situation is not being shared with the members and maybe to appoint new members to replace the ones who stood down recently.



It's interesting you say 'Pro/shop manager'..............

golfguy1

It's interesting you say 'Pro/shop manager'..............[/quote]

Why is that interesting as I assume they will look at all options which include taking back ownership of the shop.


As for replacing board members I totally agree that they need to be replaced

golfguy1

Benildus wrote: »

An EGM because the full state of the financial situation is not being shared with the members and maybe to appoint new members to replace the ones who stood down recently.

Looks like an egm is becoming a possibility. Some lads going Round looking for signatures.

GreeBo

Benildus wrote: »

An EGM because the full state of the financial situation is not being shared with the members and maybe to appoint new members to replace the ones who stood down recently.



It's interesting you say 'Pro/shop manager'..............

What makes you think that "the full state of the financial situation is not being shared with the members"?
Just the fact they couldnt reach an agreement?

I presume you have no idea what he was asking for, so not sure why you are jumping to the assumption there is some financial irregularity or things being hidden?

Henry Ford III

Lots of infighting going on in Killarney G.C. for years I'm told.

Not too sure a full time club pro is needed tbh. Lahinch for example doesn't have one.

Is there a pro in Ballybunion?



p.s. I looked it up. There is.

golfguy1

GreeBo wrote: »

What makes you think that "the full state of the financial situation is not being shared with the members"?
Just the fact they couldnt reach an agreement?

I presume you have no idea what he was asking for, so not sure why you are jumping to the assumption there is some financial irregularity or things being hidden?

Nobody mentioned financial regularities regarding the pros contract.
There definitely is some questions to answer by the council regarding the conditions of the courses which have deteriorated dramatically this yr.

GreeBo

golfguy1 wrote: »

Nobody mentioned financial regularities regarding the pros contract.
There definitely is some questions to answer by the council regarding the conditions of the courses which have deteriorated dramatically this yr.

tbf I didnt say they did, I asked what makes that poster think there is something being hidden.

golfguy1

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Lots of infighting going on in Killarney G.C. for years I'm told.

Not too sure a full time club pro is needed tbh. Lahinch for example doesn't have one.

Is there a pro in Ballybunion?


Best club in the world for infighting.
Lots of members give out about committee's and those on it.
When it comes to replacing existing committee we have no replacements queing up to replace them.
Should be interesting to see if they oust the current chairman & committee who will replace them

Benildus

GreeBo wrote: »

What makes you think that "the full state of the financial situation is not being shared with the members"?
Just the fact they couldnt reach an agreement?

I presume you have no idea what he was asking for, so not sure why you are jumping to the assumption there is some financial irregularity or things being hidden?

I know what some details of package were and also what was being removed for the new package.


There is no financial irregularity in KGC and to say otherwise would be slanderous to the current management of the club. What is happening is a lack of communication with the members on the situation re development works & cost, green fees etc

golfguy1

Benildus wrote: »

I know what some details of package were and also what was being removed for the new package.


There is no financial irregularity in KGC and to say otherwise would be slanderous to the current management of the club. What is happening is a lack of communication with the members on the situation re development works & cost, green fees etc

If they give u all the details I don't see what difference it makes.
Green fees have been on the slide for decades in kgc. Can't see that changing as the 2 courses just aren't maintained to the high level of the clubs we are trying to compete with (price).
So many good value golf around Ireland now. Kg is not seen as good value anymore

slingerz

Its a shame to see such a great club and host of Irish opens in such difficulty. Its a course i love playing and one i think has fantastic potential.

Hopefully things come together and the courses flourish because they are fantastic courses

tvercetti

Is Lackabane still alive? I still see green fee prices on the KGC website but anytime I have passed there, its looks to just be a Liebherr carpark.

golfguy1

tvercetti wrote: »

Is Lackabane still alive? I still see green fee prices on the KGC website but anytime I have passed there, its looks to just be a Liebherr carpark.

9 holes are sill open for play.
Starting at the old 3rd. Liebherr now own the grounds and lease it back to kgc

idle

Article in local paper this week about it headed:

‘Bitter row erupts at top golf club’

Members demanding a special general meeting

golfguy1

Any member at tonight's presentation for dk comp. I assume his speech was interesting to say the least

Benildus

golfguy1 wrote: »

Any member at tonight's presentation for dk comp. I assume his speech was interesting to say the least

What presentation was that?

golfguy1

Benildus wrote: »

What presentation was that?

Dave Keating sponsored comps to the men's and ladies presentation was on last night.
A lot if talk about it the last few days as to what he might say regarding management.
It's his last day today

Benildus

golfguy1 wrote: »

Dave Keating sponsored comps to the men's and ladies presentation was on last night.
A lot if talk about it the last few days as to what he might say regarding management.
It's his last day today

I get you now, I thought it was some official presentation from Dave to the members.


The email sent over the weekend was very informative and certainly clarified a few points that had been the subject of misinformation



The AGM's should be interesting over the next few weeks.

golfguy1

Benildus wrote: »

I get you now, I thought it was some official presentation from Dave to the members.


The email sent over the weekend was very informative and certainly clarified a few points that had been the subject of misinformation



The AGM's should be interesting over the next few weeks.

The email has me baffled as to why he is leaving.
As I read it he paid the golf club almost €450,000 in commission/???? over a 5 yr period.
2 things confuse me.
Why would the club need to change his contract if they were pulling in that kind of money for doing nothing.

And why is dk leaving if his business in pulling in mega bucks as to be paying out that kind of money in commission/???

prawnsambo

golfguy1 wrote: »

The email has me baffled as to why he is leaving.
As I read it he paid the golf club almost €450,000 in commission/???? over a 5 yr period.
2 things confuse me.
Why would the club need to change his contract if they were pulling in that kind of money for doing nothing.

And why is dk leaving if his business in pulling in mega bucks as to be paying out that kind of money in commission/???

Well if he got a better offer that would result in him paying less (or no) commission?


I have no idea btw, just struck me as a hefty whack to be paying out.

golfguy1

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well if he got a better offer that would result in him paying less (or no) commission?


I have no idea btw, just struck me as a hefty whack to be paying out.

I have to assume that figure includes trolley/buggy rental otherwise he is making a big mistake leaving. He told me he had nothing lined up.
He is keeping the town shop open for the near future

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well if he got a better offer that would result in him paying less (or no) commission?


I have no idea btw, just struck me as a hefty whack to be paying out.

Assuming the commission percentage isn't more than 50%, by those numbers he was earning a pretty penny himself too though?

golfguy1

GreeBo wrote: »

Assuming the commission percentage isn't more than 50%, by those numbers he was earning a pretty penny himself too though?

Commission to the golf club on all crested product was 10% according to my source. The figure must include the 80% of buggy rental and 50% of pull trolley rental otherwise he is raking it in and would no way be leaving

Dbu

Certainly does not seem to be a happy place at the moment

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/golf/killarney-to-table-action-plan-on-controversial-deloitte-report-876037.html

Benildus

Any other members here need to check their email now - correspondence received from Management Council :eek:

golfguy1

Benildus wrote: »

Any other members here need to check their email now - correspondence received from Management Council :eek:

Council and Mr flannery don't get on anyway.
Imo it seems to be pinning the blame on our gm.
Had heard a few stories about him and his inability to manage the staff.
Not sure they can blame him for everything though

Benildus

Well if some of the items outlined are true (and they would have to be if included in a members communication) then it would appear that some blame lies at his door.