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Why I'm taking my rental off the market

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12467…14

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    #92
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Graham wrote: »
    Anecdotal evidence from this forum alone suggests otherwise.

    Number of posters discussing frequently short term letting their home while they take a quick jaunt to Europe: 0

    Number of landlords discussing switching their residential letting to AirBnB: too many to count.

    To be fair, we don't get a lot of posters on here who say they let rooms in their homes, that doesn't mean there aren't thousands who do just that.

    The posters on here tend to be the ones like the op, and myself, who have lost faith in the rental market and see Airbnb as a much better, more lucrative, less risky alternative.


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    #93
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Pussyhands wrote: »
    So what rights are you looking for OP?


    Not the OP but for my input



    1. A proper credit rating system which can be checked by LL/Agencies with negative effects on a tenantrs credit should they stop paying the rent/trash the place.


    2. The ability to evict within 90 days for non payment of rent with a corasponding, First & Last Month's rent and security deposit system (of one month).


    3. The ability to evict for antisocial behaviour/trashing the place within 14/30 days - although the former exisits good luck in enforceing it.


    4. HAP to be brought in line with the way rent is paid - in advance - and paid in full from the local authority. Not this mishmash of part from the tenant. This would also hamper top-ups.


    5. The ability to charge market rent to new tenants. Stiff penalties for LL's the evict to do this.


    6. The ability to sell property and prevent tenantrs from overholding unless a lease with no break clause is in place.


    7. Tax breaks for longer term leases with no break clauses.


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    #94
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Graham wrote: »
    Mandatory licensing/registration of booking platforms.
    Mandatory registration of properties being made available for short term lettings.
    Mandatory reporting of nights booked by each of the booking platforms.

    Naturally you are likely to have some property owners trying to skirt around any limits but the above would make it much harder.

    Difficult to see all that being achieved, but even with that, you would still require manpower to regulate it countrywide. Also, none of what you posted can stop an owner advertising on Facebook.


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    #95
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    davo10 wrote: »
    To be fair, we don't get a lot of posters on here who say they let rooms in their homes, that doesn't mean there aren't thousands who do just that.

    We aren't discussing the ones occasionally letting a spare room. Arguably the original purpose of AirBnB and the 'sharing' economy.

    It's the approximately 50% of listings (in Dublin) where the entire property is used year-round as a holiday letting, or the 43% of 'hosts' that have multiple properties listed.

    Somewhere in the region of 4000 residential properties in Dublin, repurposed as full-time holiday accommodation.


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    #96
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Not the OP but for my input



    1. A proper credit rating system which can be checked by LL/Agencies with negative effects on a tenantrs credit should they stop paying the rent/trash the place.



    You are going to run into problems with this from the off, credit rating is provided by the ICB. Landlords would not be able to give nor receive info from the ICB.


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    #97
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    It all well and good cracking down on AirBnB but, there wouldn't be AirBnB if there wasn't a huge demand for it. It's certainly colourable that not-inconsequential damage would be done to tourism if AirBnB was knocked on the head. Of those 4000 yes some would end up back in the rental market, and many more sold but many would simply sit empty with the current reglatory backdrop and risk involved.


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    #98
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    davo10 wrote: »
    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Not the OP but for my input



    1. A proper credit rating system which can be checked by LL/Agencies with negative effects on a tenantrs credit should they stop paying the rent/trash the place.



    You are going to run into problems with this from the off, credit rating is provided by the ICB. Landlords would not be able to give nor receive info from the ICB.


    Of course, but change that. We've already seen a move towards a proper credit referencing system.


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    #99
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    davo10 wrote: »
    Difficult to see all that being achieved, but even with that, you would still require manpower to regulate it countrywide.

    Not much manpower required to receive data from the booking providers.
    davo10 wrote: »
    Also, none of what you posted can stop an owner advertising on Facebook.

    Addressed:
    Graham wrote: »
    Naturally you are likely to have some property owners trying to skirt around any limits but the above would make it much harder.

    You're probably right though. Such legislation should probably be accompanied by some fairly harsh penalties to encourage compliance.


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    #100
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Graham wrote: »
    Anecdotal evidence from this forum alone suggests otherwise.

    Number of posters discussing frequently short term letting their home while they take a quick jaunt to Europe: 0

    Number of landlords discussing switching their residential letting to AirBnB: too many to count.

    Number of landlords- actively leaving the sector- deliberately obsfusciated by the RTB and impossible to accurately enumerate (though they have the number of terminate tenancies stating an intention to sell the property).

    Landlords leaving the sector and using booking.com or airbnb- is high yes- however, pulling the rug from under them- is not going to entice them back into the rental sector- its simply going to place the properties on the market.

    How many are involved- is hard to tell- yes- we see a lot of landlords discussing it in here and over on irishlandlord.com (etc)- however, in the context of landlords in Ireland- where 36% of all properties are let by a landlord who doesn't own another property (aka they're actually renting elsewhere themselves)- and 68% of all landlords own 3 or fewer properties- a small number of very vocal landlords can have an abnormally large effect on the sector (and indeed- shape government policy- to the detriment of the sector as a whole).

    I honestly think that 'accidental landlords'- should be assisted to exit the sector- and their properties made available in a controlled fashion to prospective purchasers (cognisant of the fact that there were 34,000 mortgage approvals in 2017, of which 9,000 lapsed- and we had construction of approx 16,500 units).

    We need to cleanup the sector. Cleaning up the sector does not mean making more property available on the rental market- by rights it would mean normalising the market- by which- local authorities would construct social and affordable housing units in a constant and predetermined manner- and make them available to those who are unable to house themselves (for whatever reason).

    Its not acceptable to suggest we banish social welfare (HAP) tenants to Connaught (or where-ever else has supply of units). However- it should be equally as unacceptable to suggest that workers drive for 3-4 hours a day to and from their place of work- and those workers have at least as strong a case to make to be offered accommodation in Dublin (or Galway or Cork- or whereever they work)- as do homeless people. It is nonsense to suggest that DLR should construct 500 social housing units- and ignore everything else (though to be brutally honest- it would be better than not doing anything at all............)

    How many units are let on airbnb in Ireland and for how many days per annum- would be a nice statistic.

    We see lots of landlords here- because its our bread and butter here- however, it doesn't necessarily mean that its representative of the country as a whole.............


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    #101
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    It all well and good cracking down on AirBnB but, there wouldn't be AirBnB if there wasn't a huge demand for it. It's certainly colourable that not-inconsequential damage would be done to tourism if AirBnB was knocked on the head. Of those 4000 yes some would end up back in the rental market, and many more sold but many would simply sit empty with the current reglatory backdrop and risk involved.

    In a market where houses and apartments in high demand areas are increasing in value by 10%+ per annum- it would make a lot of sense to keep them vacant- and drip feed them onto the market when it suits............ It makes a lot of sense not to let them under Irish tenancy law- under any circumstances whatsoever.

    Airbnb- is one brick in the wall. An inability to evict a delinquint tenant- or to normalise rent for people caught out by the change in legislation- is another. Its not a one-way street- and piecemeal actions like the proposals- when taken on their own- aren't going to do anything at all for the sector.


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    #102
    august12
    Registered Users Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭august12


    Edgware wrote:
    Rental income is no different from income earned by working overtime or any other money earning enterprise. Landlords have to accept this. All across the board the Revenue have tightened up their tax gathering capability. The rental market is a lot more regulated now than 20 years ago where cash was king and there was massive undeclararation of income. Many landlords cannot accept this. There are also too many amateur landlords who own one rental property, maybe bought in the boomtime and still in negative equity. It is nobodys fault but their own that they are not getting the return they think they should. If landlords think that they should get more favourable tax relief then why shouldnt every other income earner get the same

    All income is not treated the same, there are tax exemptions for many different sources of income, from forestry, rent a room, long land lease incomes. A government can decide to give some form of tax relief within any industry it sees fit, take for instance corporation tax. If people are in a position to buy a second house and rent that house, take someone off the housing/homeless list, then why not some tax incentive given the risk and regulations they face.


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    #103
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    Landlords leaving the sector and using booking.com or airbnb- is high yes- however, pulling the rug from under them- is not going to entice them back into the rental sector- its simply going to place the properties on the market.

    Exactly.

    I can't think of any other way to add 3000+ properties to the Dublin residential market in a matter of weeks.


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    #104
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Graham wrote: »
    Exactly.

    I can't think of any other way to add 3000+ properties to the Dublin residential market in a matter of weeks.


    But if I do the math - 200K rising at c.8% pa = 16,000
    Mortgate c. 6K
    Profit 10K


    And I've a pad for the weekends in town. I wouldn't be putting it on the market, just leaving it empty. Granted I would eventually sell, but I'm going to dot that anyway. In the mean time I'm poorer and the economy has 3000 less rich tourists per week spening money in Temple Bar.


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    #105
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    We've been talking about the issues for 10yrs or more and nothing has been done to fix any of this.

    Any measures have been to give the impression of action while knowing they will have zero real impact.


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    #106
    Pussyhands
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Not sure what point this thread is making.

    Is it supposed to be that landlords are getting shafted?

    On one hand, we have the OP who says after 3 years the tenant stops paying rent and now he has to pay 17k to renovate it and that this is really terrible.

    Then he goes on to say that he's happy enough to let it sit there with no one in it and use it as a holiday home.


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    #107
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Pussyhands wrote: »
    Not sure what point this thread is making.

    Is it supposed to be that landlords are getting shafted?

    On one hand, we have the OP who says after 3 years the tenant stops paying rent and now he has to pay 17k to renovate it and that this is really terrible.

     Then he goes on to say that he's happy enough to let it sit there with no one in it and use it as a holiday home.


    The point being it's not worth renting it out. He's probably netted a few hundred quid. He might aswell leave it empty and save himself the hassle or AirBnB it, make more money than renting it and have less chance of the place being destroyed as each guest is vetted.


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    #108
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Graham wrote: »
    Not much manpower required to receive data from the booking providers.



    Addressed:



    You're probably right though. Such legislation should probably be accompanied by some fairly harsh penalties to encourage compliance.

    Accumulating the data is the easy part, even processing it just requires algorithms to be put in place. But checking the info, acting on it, collecting penalties, prosecuting etc most certainly will take a lot of manpower both locally and nationally.

    I don't really see anything there about addressing advertising on Facebook, God knows governments and even Facebook themselves find it difficult to regulate content and advertising on that platform. What use is regulating Airbnb only for the service to move to another platform.

    In relation to penalties, how do you propose to inforce them in the absence of dedicated regulatory body? Do you think this should be handed over to local councils?


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    #109
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    We need people like the OP- not charging over-inflated rents, element of trust, providing decent housing. If these type of landlords leave the rental sector, then people will be subject to rogue landlords providing sub-standard accommodation and the big players who buy up whole apartment buildings.


    I'm not surprised when i hear landlords asking for 3 months rent in advance, extortionate type deposits and your entire life's history in order to consider you as a tenant- there's balance to be had somewhere between protecting tenants from rouge landlords and landlords experiencing this type of nonsense.


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    #110
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users Posts: 4,638 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    OP, a significant amount of people on boards will just think you're evil because you have a rental property no matter what you do.


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    #111
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    davo10 wrote: »
    Accumulating the data is the easy part, even processing it just requires algorithms to be put in place. But checking the info, acting on it, collecting penalties, prosecuting etc most certainly will take a lot of manpower both locally and nationally.

    I can think of one particular government department that is particularly good at collating data locally and nationally. Come to think of it, they'd also be pretty good at enforcing financial penalties.


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    #112
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    beauf wrote: »
    We've been talking about the issues for 10yrs or more and nothing has been done to fix any of this.

    Any measures have been to give the impression of action while knowing they will have zero real impact.

    Maybe it's time the government put their money where their mouth is.

    Under-write/Guarantee all rentals- take the risk away from the landlords and on to themselves. Govt keep paying rent, even when there's an issue with the tenant.

    Increase taxes on rental properties slightly considering government is taking on the risk.

    Insist on good minimum standards of condition of the building- inspection before each rental- if property is destroyed by tenant, criminal proceedings.

    Make eviction easier for non-compliant tenants.

    Make penalties harsher for non-compliant landlords.

    Money talks, and people listen.

    There's loads of people out there who would happily buy a property to rent if the risks weren't so great- but stories like the OP's just put people off.

    You could lose every penny of investment due to one rogue tenant- and there appears to be quite a few rogue tenants out there. Provide them with some form of indemnity or guarantee and it will make being a landlord more attractive.


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    #113
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    But if I do the math - 200K rising at c.8% pa = 16,000
    Mortgate c. 6K
    Profit 10K

    I rounded the number of properties down by about 20% to account for the owners that are in a position (and willing) to sit on a vacant property accumulating a CGT liability.
    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    And I've a pad for the weekends in town. I wouldn't be putting it on the market, just leaving it empty. Granted I would eventually sell, but I'm going to dot that anyway. In the mean time I'm poorer and the economy has 3000 less rich tourists per week spening money in Temple Bar.

    3000 'rich' tourists is debatable and I'm fairly sure there's some type of purpose built tourist accommodation they could use. No doubt removing a heap of short-term lettings from the market would have an effect on hotel prices but this would surely dampen demand at the budget end of the market, not the 'rich tourist'.

    We need to take residential accommodation off the population to house the tourists and support Temple Bar isn't likely to garner a huge amount of public support. I probably wouldn't use it as the main campaign slogan :D


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    #114
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Graham wrote: »
    I can think of one particular government department that is particularly good at collating data locally and nationally. Come to think of it, they'd also be pretty good at enforcing financial penalties.

    I would assume you are talking about Revenue. One of the arguments often made in favour of the Airbnb platform is that landlords are less able to hide income because Revenue receive records from Airbnb and the payment is into a bank account so cash is not used at all. In terms of raising and collecting taxes, Airbnb is as good as it comes for Revenue.

    But, again, the sheer numbers of properties involved in this and the likelihood of increase in the coming years would add a significant burden to Revenue resources. So far I have not read any articles indicating that regulation would come under Revenues remit, it has all been local councils in Dublin and Galway. I live in a sizeable town in the midlands which is the seat of the county council, the council has one Rate collector, yes one. How do you think that council would regulate hundreds/thousands of short term rental accommodations?

    Tourists bring money into a local economy which would not be there otherwise. The guests who have stayed in my property show no signs of being rich, they are looking for good accommodation, at a good price where they and up to 7 of their friends can stay together.


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    #115
    Scienceless
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Scienceless


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    We need people like the OP- not charging over-inflated rents, element of trust, providing decent housing. If these type of landlords leave the rental sector, then people will be subject to rogue landlords providing sub-standard accommodation and the big players who buy up whole apartment buildings.


    I'm not surprised when i hear landlords asking for 3 months rent in advance, extortionate type deposits and your entire life's history in order to consider you as a tenant- there's balance to be had somewhere between protecting tenants from rouge landlords and landlords experiencing this type of nonsense.

    Well said. And these are indeed the landlords that are getting out and selling up. Decent landlords providing proper accommodation often taking below market rents while having a good relationship with tenants.

    This demonising of landlords across the board is complete bs. There’s rogue landlords alright, and plenty rogue tenants too. Until the playing field is levelled in terms of the sanctions that can and should be applied to both landlords and tenants they will continue to exit the market.


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    #116
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    Pussyhands wrote: »
    Not sure what point this thread is making.

    Is it supposed to be that landlords are getting shafted?

    On one hand, we have the OP who says after 3 years the tenant stops paying rent and now he has to pay 17k to renovate it and that this is really terrible.

    Then he goes on to say that he's happy enough to let it sit there with no one in it and use it as a holiday home.

    My point is that current regulations make it very undesirable for me to commit to a 6 year tenancy, when Air BnB allows me flexibility.

    Decent, tax compliant landlords have no protection against rogue tenants.


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    #117
    GGTrek
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭GGTrek


    andekwarhola wrote: »
    OP, a significant amount of people on boards will just think you're evil because you have a rental property no matter what you do.
    Plenty of keyboard commies on boards.


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    #118
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    One of the problems revenue will be facing chasing home owners for the tax on income from AirBnB on properties they own is that it's their own tenants in the properties subletting through Airbnb, and often the entire property.
    A huge amount of properties, particularly in Dublin 2 and 4 areas are being put up on AirBnB by Tenants. Owners who discover it are having some difficulty stopping them, even going as far as RTB etc, and Airbnb wont discuss anything, except through the host, because of GDRP.


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    #119
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Brilliant - tenants are the problem, so you're choosing a strategy that will get MORE tenants with LESS checking and verification into your property.


    Great business strategy.

    Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe Airbnb have a insurance policy if the house is wrecked


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    #120
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    What you propose is de facto discrimination against SW reecipients and is illegal.

    So your sayIng he should close his eyes and pick a number between 1-10 to decide who stays there. It’s an interview process similar to applying for a job and you pick the best candidate.


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    #121
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    vectorvictor wrote: »
    You could just follow the law which would have them out in 42 days?

    Theory and reality are very different my friend


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