Portmarnock residents up in arms

positron

Just curious how come the need to build overtaking tracks (three / four tracks instead of the current two) every 10 Kms or so along the northern line never came up, are there any major objections to it? Also the electrification, it's all very 19th century along here.

devnull

Deviso wrote: »

As well as everything being built in Portmarnock. There's planning permission for 550 units beside Clongriffin Station.

A reduction of even 1 Dart/Train is not feasible. Clongriffin/Portmarnock/Malahide residents are getting shafted.

Clongriffin has a fair chunk more trains
Over the day and a lot of people getting on there and working at Eastpoint currently have to wait up to 40 minutes between trains at peak time and barely able to board. This timetable fixes that.

Also take into account that most commuter trains are heavily loaded because of the fact they come all the way from dundalk and take a lot of passengers from those stops before they roach the Dart line.

Yes Portmarnock won't have commuters but they will have more trains starting at Malahide with much more space when they arrive into Portmarnock since they will only have passengers from one stop.

Then you have the fact that the current dart loadings from the Malahide branch will be split over three trains an hour rather than two.

There will be capacity for several more hundred passengers an hour on DART SOUTHBOUND in morning peak from Portmarnock

Colonel Claptrap

devnull wrote: »

Also take into account that most commuter trains are heavily loaded because of the fact they come all the way from dundalk and take a lot of passengers from those stops before they roach the Dart line.

Yes Portmarnock won't have commuters but they will have more trains starting at Malahide with much more space when they arrive into Portmarnock since they will only have passengers from one stop.

Malahide DARTs are already standing room only by the time they reach Portmarnock. There is always more room on the commuter train than the DART by the time it reaches Connolly. I've witnessed many people fainting around Clontarf/Connolly over the years. All were on DARTs. None were on commuter trains.

devnull wrote: »

Then you have the fact that the current dart loadings from the Malahide branch will be split over three trains an hour rather than two.

There will be capacity for several more hundred passengers an hour on DART SOUTHBOUND in morning peak from Portmarnock

I disagree entirely.
Currently between 7am and 8:30am there are 8 trains stopping at Portmarnock. The new schedule reduces this to 4 trains.

Both capacity and frequency suffer at rush hour.

The added frequency (every 20 mins) is a benefit during quiet periods only. Hardly anyone uses the station for anything other than 9-5 city centre commuting.

devnull

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Malahide DARTs are already standing room only by the time they reach Portmarnock.

But there is an extra DART an hour now southbound from Malahide, which will mean the DART can cater for several hundred more people on it's Malahide branch. This is simply the fact of the matter, that is extra DART capacity since there are now three DART trains an hour rather than two. That is extra DART capacity however you look at it.

I've witnessed many people fainting around Clontarf/Connolly over the years. All were on DARTs. None were on commuter trains.

I've witnessed the same on Malahide DARTs at Clontarf in evening peak, and people being unable to board and the next train not for 40 minutes because of the woeful way the timetable is balanced between Howth and Malahide branches which means those people who are travelling from Clontarf to Clongriffin, Portmarnock and Malahide are REALLY shafted with the current timetable.

Currently between 7am and 8:30am there are 8 trains stopping at Portmarnock. The new schedule reduces this to 4 trains.

I think there is a case to count the 6.54am, which has been brought forward from 7.04am as a consequence of the 6.34am moving to 6.24am. The latter I know was campaigned for during the last consultation to allow people to reach EastPoint Business Park for a 7am start. Plus having the first train of a day earlier is always a good thing.

How many people do you think are boarding at Portmarnock between 7am and 8.30am on commuter trains (not including DART passengers) that will be displaced by this change?

Both capacity and frequency suffer at rush hour. The added frequency (every 20 mins) is a benefit during quiet periods only. Hardly anyone uses the station for anything other than 9-5 city centre commuting.

There are hundreds of people who work at Eastpoint and live in Portmarnock, Malahide and Clongriffin, because Eastpoint has very limited car parking. so the frequency is certainly a benefit to these people who no longer have to wait around for up to 40 minutes between trains at peak time and even then it is a struggle to board.

Colonel Claptrap

devnull wrote: »

But there is an extra DART an hour now southbound from Malahide, which will mean the DART can cater for several hundred more people on it's Malahide branch. This is simply the fact of the matter, that is extra DART capacity since there are now three DART trains an hour rather than two. That is extra DART capacity however you look at it.

Yes there is extra DART capacity, but there is significantly less capacity overall with the removal of diesel trains at rush hour. This is simply the fact of the matter: 4 trains is less than 8.

Extra DARTs throughout the day help hardly anyone at Portmarnock. I invite you to visit and look at the scattering of passengers at non-peak times. Portmarnock is a rat race commuter station.

devnull wrote: »

I've witnessed the same on Malahide DARTs at Clontarf in evening peak, and people being unable to board and the next train not for 40 minutes because of the woeful way the timetable is balanced between Howth and Malahide branches which means those people who are travelling from Clontarf to Clongriffin, Portmarnock and Malahide are REALLY shafted with the current timetable.

Removing diesels does not fix this. Besides, a hell of a lot more people are going to Connolly/Tara/Pearse than Clontarf.

devnull wrote: »

How many people do you think are boarding at Portmarnock between 7am and 8.30am on commuter trains (not including DART passengers) that will be displaced by this change?

Go down and take a look. Honestly, it's a hugely popular service. A lot of people prefer the direct service into Connolly. It gets them there quicker than a DART. I'd estimate the split is 50/50 between DART/Commuter passengers heading southbound.

devnull wrote: »

There are hundreds of people who work at Eastpoint and live in Portmarnock, Malahide and Clongriffin, because Eastpoint has very limited car parking. so the frequency is certainly a benefit to these people who no longer have to wait around for up to 40 minutes between trains at peak time and even then it is a struggle to board.

Not sure what Eastpoint has to do with removal of diesels from Portmarnock. It's possible to run the 20 minute Malahide DART service and still retain diesels at Portmarnock, Clongriffin and Howth Jct. They are not mutually exclusive.

Ireland trains

Irish rail said they will look at this in the coming weeks
Also there is the december timetable change and the commuter trains now take up to 6 min longer getting to connoly from mallahide even though 2-3 stops are gone
Also for greystones has twice the population of portmaranock but has a maximum of 3 trains an hour to dublin.

devnull

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Yes there is extra DART capacity, but there is significantly less capacity overall with the removal of diesel trains at rush hour. This is simply the fact of the matter: 4 trains is less than 8.

The overall capacity of the Diesel Trains is not important here, because the majority of them have a lot of passengers on them from north of Portmarnock who are using up such capacity so Portmarnock users cannot avail of most of it anyway because it's already taken by people further up the line.

What is important is the number of passengers who are traveling from Portmarnock in the mornings and ensuring there is room and available capacity for them to be able to get on the train and get to their destination.

Go down and take a look. Honestly, it's a hugely popular service. A lot of people prefer the direct service into Connolly. It gets them there quicker than a DART. I'd estimate the split is 50/50 between DART/Commuter passengers heading southbound.

So you're saying that you know that the DART would not be able to cope with the extra numbers, but you don't know how many there are? How many? Just give me a ballpark? 500? 1000? 2000? You say the commuters are well used, so you must have some rough idea of how many passengers from Portmarnock to come to this conclusion?

My opinions are based on my own experiences, I have spent years commuting on the Malahide branch of the DART and I can assure you that the current timetable does not serve users of Malahide DART services who cannot avail of commuter services at all well and Howth very much has an oversupply of services at the moment.

Not sure what Eastpoint has to do with removal of diesels from Portmarnock. It's possible to run the 20 minute Malahide DART service and still retain diesels at Portmarnock, Clongriffin and Howth Jct. They are not mutually exclusive.

Actually Irish Rail have told me that is the reason that Howth currently has such a high frequency in evening peak compared to Malahide, is because that there are no paths under the current timetable north of Howth Junction.

The 18:00 from Clontarf to Malahide for example, is the last Malahide branch train until 18:46, both of which are absolutely jam packed until at Least Howth Junction, normally Clongriffin and I've seen many people faint on these and pass out and not be able to board. Such a gap at peak time is ridiculous and is by far the primary cause of Malahide DART congestion in the later end of evening peak. The new timetable will help with that.

Colonel Claptrap

devnull wrote: »

The overall capacity of the Diesel Trains is not important here, because the majority of them have a lot of passengers on them from north of Portmarnock who are using up such capacity so Portmarnock users cannot avail of most of it anyway because it's already taken by people further up the line.

What is important is the number of passengers who are traveling from Portmarnock in the mornings and ensuring there is room and available capacity for them to be able to get on the train and get to their destination.

First of all, there are no seats on either DART or commuter services at Portmarnock in the morning. But there is always sufficient room to stand. Capacity is not constrained at Portmarnock. Nobody gets left behind on the platform.

Secondly, capacity only becomes an issue on board DART as it gets closer to the city. People faint, get crushed, or can't board at around Clontarf, as you well know.

From a Portmarnock passenger's perspective. This is rarely a problem, as they will likely have found a seat as the DART continues toward town, or happily stood for the 15min journey to Connolly on the Commuter service.

Now, 8 trainloads of Portmarnock passengers will be crammed into 4 DARTs during rush hour. Along with the extra Clongriffin passengers.

devnull wrote: »

So you're saying that you know that the DART would not be able to cope with the extra numbers, but you don't know how many there are? How many? Just give me a ballpark? 500? 1000? 2000? You say the commuters are well used, so you must have some rough idea of how many passengers from Portmarnock to come to this conclusion?

The transport census should give you this data.

By the way, my gripe is not with capacity issues. Its with the severe loss of frequency at rush hour, on top of the loss of the 'fast' direct Connolly service.

devnull wrote: »

My opinions are based on my own experiences, I have spent years commuting on the Malahide branch of the DART!

As are mine. We've probably sat next to each other for years


I just watched about 80 people get off the northbound diesel at Portmarnock. It's a tight squeeze trying to manouvere up the platform with so many people queuing for the single (inadequate) leap card machine. As I said, it's a very popular service.

devnull

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

First of all, there are no seats on either DART or commuter services at Portmarnock in the morning. But there is always sufficient room to stand. Capacity is not constrained at Portmarnock. Nobody gets left behind on the platform.

You clearly haven't traveled on the 6.34am for the last while, because there are plenty on that one if you know where to look. In fact, when I used to take it up until earlier in the year I often had a bank of four to myself even at Howth Junction!

Secondly, capacity only becomes an issue on board DART as it gets closer to the city. People faint, get crushed, or can't board at around Clontarf, as you well know.

People who are traveling on the section which all trains run on and not to/from either branch will see their service go from 4 trains an hour to 6 an hour so that should hopefully spread the load around more and free up more space for people who need either branch rather than can take any train.

Now, 8 trainloads of Portmarnock passengers will be crammed into 4 DARTs during rush hour. Along with the extra Clongriffin passengers.

But Is there really many more than 100 people getting on each of those diesels at Portmarnock every day? Even if the extra DART an hour is a 6 car, it's going to result in just short of 400 extra seats an hour and room for at least another 250 standing, so that's 650 of the passengers cated for straight away.

By the way, my gripe is not with capacity issues. Its with the severe loss of frequency at rush hour, on top of the loss of the 'fast' direct Connolly service.

I understand that - however it has to be balanced, Portmarnock has a really frequent service now, but in order to provide that (according to Irish Rail) other stations are having gaps of 30-45 minutes in service at peak times to the point that they cannot board, whilst the Howth Branch has much higher frequency than needed.

I just watched about 80 people get off the northbound diesel at Portmarnock. It's a tight squeeze trying to manouvere up the platform with so many people queuing for the single (inadequate) leap card machine. As I said, it's a very popular service.

I'm well aware of the Northbound issue in the night. Count the number of Howth DARTS in evening peak to the number of Malahide and you'll see where the problem is with the current timetable, Howth can be virtually every 10 minutes at times whereas Malahide is never better than 30 minutes and there's that big 45 minute gap which can't disappear soon enough which probably contributes to the commuter loading.

I've actually been on Howth trains in evening peak where more people got off to change for a Malahide train than were actually left on-board the Howth Train, which sounds ridiculous, but it does happen!

Colonel Claptrap

Twice as many passengers waiting on Portmarnock and Clongriffin platforms this morning. Eventually a 6 carriage DART arrived. This is 8am and they send out 6 carriages!

To add insult to injury, a diesel commuter ambled through, obviously held up by something further up the line.

Granted, there will always be issues on the first day of a new timetable. Will continue to monitor this week and next.

Update: by Raheny there is very little standing room left. Here comes a crush.

lawred2

Standing room only after Portmarnock on the 814

Colonel Claptrap

lawred2 wrote: »

Standing room only after Portmarnock on the 814

Only barely....

Deviso

Does anyone know what the 7:37 from Clongriffin was like.

Colonel Claptrap

My 26 min DART journey arrived 10mins late.

In addition, It took almost a full minute to disembark because of the sardines blocking the exit to the doors.

I'm amazed this timetable was introduced when the schools are back. Surely a summertime rollout would have given them time to react and adjust without putting passenger safety at risk.

devnull

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

My 26 min DART journey arrived 10mins late.

In addition, It took almost a full minute to disembark because of the sardines blocking the exit to the doors.

I'm amazed this timetable was introduced when the schools are back. Surely a summertime rollout would have given them time to react and adjust without putting passenger safety at risk.

Every timetable change leads to this, because people turn up for the old times on the first few days until they get used to the new change and then loading spreads around a little bit.

I was once on a DB route that was every 20 minutes that went to every 10 minutes during peak. For the first little while the 7.20am and 7.40am were packed and standing room only and the 7.30am was empty. You need to give it time.

PCros

lawred2 wrote: »

Standing room only after Portmarnock on the 814

Was the 8:14 a half length train?

I used to get the 8:11 and went for the 7:55 this morning just to be safe and it was a half length train and it was crammed at Kilbarrack.

lawred2

PCros wrote: »

Was the 8:14 a half length train?

I used to get the 8:11 and went for the 7:55 this morning just to be safe and it was a half length train and it was crammed at Kilbarrack.

No I think it was the full extent of the platform. Used to get the 811 myself. I'll miss it. 30 minutes into town will get very frustrating.

LeinsterDub

Does IE not have enough carriages or are shorter trains being run to save money?

Infini

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Does IE not have enough carriages or are shorter trains being run to save money?

More frequency = shorter trains. Capacity was one of the victims of the 10m service being introduced.

devnull

Infini wrote: »

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Does IE not have enough carriages or are shorter trains being run to save money?

More frequency = shorter trains. Capacity was one of the victims of the 10m service being introduced.

There are a higher number of DART carriages in service at peak time now than before the timetable change.

Think the belief that you seem to suggest that there are less DART coaches in service than before is ridiculously hyperbolic.

Even if they didn't add any more and kept the same capacity would be the same it would just be spread different on DART services.

Zulu

Cant wait for the more frequent :rolleyes: (only upto howth junction) service this evening.

Expect long waits and crammed trains going home folks.

PCros

What trains are only going as far as Howth Junction later?

Zulu

PCros wrote: »

What trains are only going as far as Howth Junction later?

With no diesels now stopping, it's only every second dart that will service clongriffin & portmarnock. 20mins wait at rush hour. Awesome.

Colonel Claptrap

devnull wrote: »

There are a higher number of DART carriages in service at peak time now than before the timetable change.

Think the belief that you seem to suggest that there are less DART coaches in service than before is ridiculously hyperbolic.

Even if they didn't add any more and kept the same capacity would be the same it would just be spread different on DART services.

8 carriage DART's usually serviced morning peak at Portmarnock before today. I can't speak for all services but the one I got had 6 carriages.

That also doesn't account for the missing commuter carriages which took half of the peak passengers from the platform.

It's only day 1, but from my point of view twice as many passengers were forced onto a service 25% smaller than usual.

Let's see how those averages play out over the coming week but certainly this morning saw reduced capacity, reduced frequency and increased journey times. Zero benefit. All downside.

devnull

Zulu wrote: »

With no diesels now stopping, it's only every second dart that will service clongriffin & portmarnock. 20mins wait at rush hour. Awesome.

Considering barely any diesels stopped at Clongriffin and the service was one DART every 30 minutes for the majority of the day and it's now every 20 minutes , that's a big improvement for people in Clongriffin.

Even in morning peak it used to be every 30 minutes for the vast majority of it and it's now every 20 minutes, and the big 45 minute gap in Malahide DARTs in evening peak is now gone thank the lord.

devnull

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

8 carriage DART's usually serviced morning peak at Portmarnock before today. I can't speak for all services but the one I got had 6 carriages.

That also doesn't account for the missing commuter carriages which took half of the peak passengers from the platform.

It's only day 1, but from my point of view twice as many passengers were forced onto a service 25% smaller than usual.

Let's see how those averages play out over the coming week but certainly this morning saw reduced capacity, reduced frequency and increased journey times. Zero benefit. All downside.

From what I saw the loadings were far from evenly spread, as you say there were some trains completely overloaded, but others were far less so.

Lets see how it plays out.

Zulu

devnull wrote: »

Considering barely any diesels stopped at Clongriffin and the service was one DART every 30 minutes for the majority of the day and it's now every 20 minutes , that's a big improvement for people in Clongriffin.

The "majority" of the day? You mean "off peak"?



Yeah, so if you mean to "improve" the service for those infrequent minority of passengers, good job, I'll be sure to be grateful that odd time I'm using the service when I'm not commuting to work.



Unfortunately, that's no use to the majority of passengers who use it daily to get in and out of work. You know, that "minority" part of the day that impacts the most people, most of the time.

ThunbergsAreGo

d15ude wrote: »

Yes, times are changing. There are more houses in the area than ever before.
If anything, there should be more and quicker trains!


I'm in D15, so no personal stakes in Portmarnock.
But same issues here.

Thats the same for most of North Dublin

Loads of new housing and no increase in transport

ThunbergsAreGo

lawred2 wrote: »

It's not

It most certainly is,

no more direct busto town north of Swords

PCros

lawred2 wrote: »

No I think it was the full extent of the platform. Used to get the 811 myself. I'll miss it. 30 minutes into town will get very frustrating.

What time did the 814 get you into town at? Pearse?