Portmarnock residents up in arms

Creative83

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/morning-trains-from-portmarnock-into-dublin-city-centre-to-reduce-frequency-1.3615664


I don't see their issue here... what I do see is that they are upset to be taken off the commuter line trains which will add 10 mins to their journeys via DART. :rolleyes:



That is really what they are complaining about, the quick diesel into town.



Oh well, times change, move on.

CalamariFritti

I wonder would you say that if you lived there.

Atlantic Dawn

Once they allow trains to overtake on the Dublin lines a lot of these problems will be resolved, current line is like something out of 1885 wild west.

Creative83

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I wonder would you say that if you lived there.

I wouldn't behave like that over a lousy 10 minutes

Creative83

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Once they allow trains to overtake on the Dublin lines a lot of these problems will be resolved, current line is like something out of 1885 wild west.

Is that even feasible?

GerardKeating

Creative83 wrote: »

Is that even feasible?

Some sections of the track could be tripple/quad tracked easily. but not all without smashing some houses.

Creative83

GerardKeating wrote: »

Some sections of the track could be tripple/quad tracked easily. but not all without smashing some houses.

Sure, we could decimate Clontarf, who needs them :rolleyes:

GerardKeating

Creative83 wrote: »

Sure, we could decimate Clontarf, who needs them :rolleyes:

Why so negative, way less that 10% of Clontarf required. While the line between Kilbarack and Raheny would have houses right up to the lines, about half the line between Raheny and Harmonstown would have space for quad tracks, and from Killester Station to Clontarf road (except for the bit when the Howth road goes under the line).

Decuc500

Creative83 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/morning-trains-from-portmarnock-into-dublin-city-centre-to-reduce-frequency-1.3615664


I don't see their issue here... what I do see is that they are upset to be taken off the commuter line trains which will add 10 mins to their journeys via DART. :rolleyes:



That is really what they are complaining about, the quick diesel into town.



Oh well, times change, move on.

They're complaining about less trains during the busiest hour of the day. From 6 trains to 3 between 8 and 9 am. It means even more people having to get already over crowded darts.

end of the road

Creative83 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/morning-trains-from-portmarnock-into-dublin-city-centre-to-reduce-frequency-1.3615664


I don't see their issue here... what I do see is that they are upset to be taken off the commuter line trains which will add 10 mins to their journeys via DART.



That is really what they are complaining about, the quick diesel into town.



Oh well, times change, move on.

not move on as times change isn't relevant, and they feel they have a legitimate complaint.

Creative83 wrote: »

Rubbish because there will be also a greater frequency of Darts through Howth Junction... the darts are practically empty from Malahide on which Portmarnock is the first stop

apparently the greater dart frequency will still leave less trains then what they currently have. so if true, then it's most certainly not rubbish.

Cookie_Monster

end of the road wrote: »

apparently the greater dart frequency will still leave less trains then what they currently have..

the number of trains is not really relevant though, just the actual overall capacity available. So if empty darts provide more capacity than 90% full commuters it's still a win

end of the road

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the number of trains is not really relevant though, just the actual overall capacity available. So if empty darts provide more capacity than 90% full commuters it's still a win

i'd disagree that it's a win. more like trading frequency for capacity. for it to be a win in my book, they would need to keep the same level of service as they have now with a capacity increase as well.

Cookie_Monster

end of the road wrote: »

i'd disagree that it's a win.

of course you do...

end of the road wrote: »

more like trading frequency for capacity. for it to be a win in my book, they would need to keep the same level of service as they have now with a capacity increase as well.

but that's not realistic is it?

Kh1993

I thought the point of the 10 minute darts was frequency. Being sold as everyone as you can walk down the station whenever without a long wait.

Yet now the passengers of these 3 stations are being told actually its for capacity. The exact reason we’re being told the timetable needs to change, for frequency not capacity. Slightly bizarre. As a commuter I’d much prefer the current regular 70% full trains with standing space at the 3 stations then a 20 minute gap just to sit on a slower train.

(And with high frequency buses due to serve some of these stations under Bus Connects, the link from north county stations to places like Beaumont, DCU etc are practically severed).

d15ude

Creative83 wrote: »

That is really what they are complaining about, the quick diesel into town.



Oh well, times change, move on.

Yes, times are changing. There are more houses in the area than ever before.
If anything, there should be more and quicker trains!


I'm in D15, so no personal stakes in Portmarnock.
But same issues here.

lawred2

Creative83 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/morning-trains-from-portmarnock-into-dublin-city-centre-to-reduce-frequency-1.3615664


I don't see their issue here... what I do see is that they are upset to be taken off the commuter line trains which will add 10 mins to their journeys via DART. :rolleyes:



That is really what they are complaining about, the quick diesel into town.



Oh well, times change, move on.

Did you read any of that article?

In what parallel universe do you expect people dependent on a service to be content with a reduction in that service?

PCros

This really has nothing to do with getting to town quicker on a diesel – yes it was nice sometimes to fly into/ out of town but that’s not the issue here.

I have used Portmarnock now for over 4 years and primarily used trains in between 7:30 and 8:15 in which I had a choice of 5 trains.

In short that time frame is the busiest time of the morning and now with the new timetable there will be only 3 trains within that timeframe which is madness to be honest.

Colonel Claptrap

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the number of trains is not really relevant though, just the actual overall capacity available. So if empty darts provide more capacity than 90% full commuters it's still a win

By that logic, if the frequency of trains is not relevant, then why bother with a 10 min DART in the first place?

Portmarnock station is very much a commuter station. Massive passenger numbers heading southbound in the morning and northbound in the evening. DARTs are empty during the day. They will be rammed at 7-8am and 6-7pm.

beauf

d15ude wrote: »

Yes, times are changing. There are more houses in the area than ever before.
If anything, there should be more and quicker trains!


I'm in D15, so no personal stakes in Portmarnock.
But same issues here.

Worse in D15.

Colonel Claptrap

There are plans for ~900 homes immediately north and south of the station as part of Fingal CoCo's Local Area Plan. Some have been built, more are in the process of being finished and about to go on the market.

NTA's response? Cut frequency.

This will put more cars on the road. Cars which otherwise would be sat on a driveway a mere stone's throw from the platform. I know of 2 families who are changing their morning routine - dropping kids to creche, then drive to work rather than take the commuter train as they currently do.

Colonel Claptrap

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Rubbish because there will be also a greater frequency of Darts through Howth Junction... the darts are practically empty from Malahide on which Portmarnock is the first stop

Wrong and wrong.

Greater frequency through Howth Jct. Does not mean greater frequency through Clongriffin and Portmarnock as half of those trains will take the Howth spur.

Portmarnock is the second stop and is already standing room only at rush hour.

PCros

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

NTA's response? Cut frequency.

You couldn't make it up!

Also, isn’t part of the new Bus Connect system for Swords and surrounding areas to be more reliant on the rail network too? How exactly is this going to work?

lawred2

PCros wrote: »

You couldn't make it up!

Also, isn’t part of the new Bus Connect system for Swords and surrounding areas to be more reliant on the rail network too? How exactly is this going to work?

It's not

PCros

lawred2 wrote: »

It's not

Could you explain why not?

There are two new proposed bus routes from Swords:
-1 serving Malahide and Portmarnock stations every 20 mins (281)
-1 serving Malahide station every 30 mins (60L)

Also from Kinsealy there is a route directly to Clongriffin station (280).

Pages 16/17 - https://busconnects.ie/media/1307/busconnects-local-brochure-dublin-outer-north-web_tagged_resised.pdf

GM228

Word is that IE/the NTA may be about to review the Howth Junction and Portmarnock stops, how soon any action will come from the review however is unknown, but remember this timetable is only valid for 3 months.

Colonel Claptrap

GM228 wrote: »

Word is that IE/the NTA may be about to review the Howth Junction and Portmarnock stops, how soon any action will come from the review however is unknown, but remember this timetable is only valid for 3 months.

I wonder what alternative solutions are open to them.

Reverting to the original diesel stops probably doesn't fit alongside 10 mins DART schedule south of Howth Jct.

What about a rush hour DART shuttle from Malahide to Howth Jct? It's a pity the Howth Jct platform layout wouldn't allow for this shuttle to continue back up the Howth spur, in effect creating a 3 point V shaped shuttle service.

Any other options?

GM228

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

I wonder what alternative solutions are open to them.

Reverting to the original diesel stops probably doesn't fit alongside 10 mins DART schedule south of Howth Jct.

What about a rush hour DART shuttle from Malahide to Howth Jct? It's a pity the Howth Jct platform layout wouldn't allow for this shuttle to continue back up the Howth spur, in effect creating a 3 point V shaped shuttle service.

Any other options?

There is plenty of padding so stopping once more at the stations is an option.

Cookie_Monster

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Rubbish because there will be also a greater frequency of Darts through Howth Junction... the darts are practically empty from Malahide on which Portmarnock is the first stop

Wrong and wrong.

Greater frequency through Howth Jct. Does not mean greater frequency through Clongriffin and Portmarnock as half of those trains will take the Howth spur.

Portmarnock is the second stop and is already standing room only at rush hour.

Please don't make up stuff and pretend it's a quote of mine...

Colonel Claptrap

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Please don't make up stuff and pretend it's a quote of mine...

Apologies, should be a quote from OP, quoted from post #10. Had to manually fudge the username because the mobile version crapped out. My bad!

Deviso

As well as everything being built in Portmarnock. There's planning permission for 550 units beside Clongriffin Station.

A reduction of even 1 Dart/Train is not feasible. Clongriffin/Portmarnock/Malahide residents are getting shafted.

Greentree_uk

just wait until they put the dart extension in place.....

positron

Just curious how come the need to build overtaking tracks (three / four tracks instead of the current two) every 10 Kms or so along the northern line never came up, are there any major objections to it? Also the electrification, it's all very 19th century along here.

devnull

Deviso wrote: »

As well as everything being built in Portmarnock. There's planning permission for 550 units beside Clongriffin Station.

A reduction of even 1 Dart/Train is not feasible. Clongriffin/Portmarnock/Malahide residents are getting shafted.

Clongriffin has a fair chunk more trains
Over the day and a lot of people getting on there and working at Eastpoint currently have to wait up to 40 minutes between trains at peak time and barely able to board. This timetable fixes that.

Also take into account that most commuter trains are heavily loaded because of the fact they come all the way from dundalk and take a lot of passengers from those stops before they roach the Dart line.

Yes Portmarnock won't have commuters but they will have more trains starting at Malahide with much more space when they arrive into Portmarnock since they will only have passengers from one stop.

Then you have the fact that the current dart loadings from the Malahide branch will be split over three trains an hour rather than two.

There will be capacity for several more hundred passengers an hour on DART SOUTHBOUND in morning peak from Portmarnock

Colonel Claptrap

devnull wrote: »

Also take into account that most commuter trains are heavily loaded because of the fact they come all the way from dundalk and take a lot of passengers from those stops before they roach the Dart line.

Yes Portmarnock won't have commuters but they will have more trains starting at Malahide with much more space when they arrive into Portmarnock since they will only have passengers from one stop.

Malahide DARTs are already standing room only by the time they reach Portmarnock. There is always more room on the commuter train than the DART by the time it reaches Connolly. I've witnessed many people fainting around Clontarf/Connolly over the years. All were on DARTs. None were on commuter trains.

devnull wrote: »

Then you have the fact that the current dart loadings from the Malahide branch will be split over three trains an hour rather than two.

There will be capacity for several more hundred passengers an hour on DART SOUTHBOUND in morning peak from Portmarnock

I disagree entirely.
Currently between 7am and 8:30am there are 8 trains stopping at Portmarnock. The new schedule reduces this to 4 trains.

Both capacity and frequency suffer at rush hour.

The added frequency (every 20 mins) is a benefit during quiet periods only. Hardly anyone uses the station for anything other than 9-5 city centre commuting.

devnull

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Malahide DARTs are already standing room only by the time they reach Portmarnock.

But there is an extra DART an hour now southbound from Malahide, which will mean the DART can cater for several hundred more people on it's Malahide branch. This is simply the fact of the matter, that is extra DART capacity since there are now three DART trains an hour rather than two. That is extra DART capacity however you look at it.

I've witnessed many people fainting around Clontarf/Connolly over the years. All were on DARTs. None were on commuter trains.

I've witnessed the same on Malahide DARTs at Clontarf in evening peak, and people being unable to board and the next train not for 40 minutes because of the woeful way the timetable is balanced between Howth and Malahide branches which means those people who are travelling from Clontarf to Clongriffin, Portmarnock and Malahide are REALLY shafted with the current timetable.

Currently between 7am and 8:30am there are 8 trains stopping at Portmarnock. The new schedule reduces this to 4 trains.

I think there is a case to count the 6.54am, which has been brought forward from 7.04am as a consequence of the 6.34am moving to 6.24am. The latter I know was campaigned for during the last consultation to allow people to reach EastPoint Business Park for a 7am start. Plus having the first train of a day earlier is always a good thing.

How many people do you think are boarding at Portmarnock between 7am and 8.30am on commuter trains (not including DART passengers) that will be displaced by this change?

Both capacity and frequency suffer at rush hour. The added frequency (every 20 mins) is a benefit during quiet periods only. Hardly anyone uses the station for anything other than 9-5 city centre commuting.

There are hundreds of people who work at Eastpoint and live in Portmarnock, Malahide and Clongriffin, because Eastpoint has very limited car parking. so the frequency is certainly a benefit to these people who no longer have to wait around for up to 40 minutes between trains at peak time and even then it is a struggle to board.

Colonel Claptrap

devnull wrote: »

But there is an extra DART an hour now southbound from Malahide, which will mean the DART can cater for several hundred more people on it's Malahide branch. This is simply the fact of the matter, that is extra DART capacity since there are now three DART trains an hour rather than two. That is extra DART capacity however you look at it.

Yes there is extra DART capacity, but there is significantly less capacity overall with the removal of diesel trains at rush hour. This is simply the fact of the matter: 4 trains is less than 8.

Extra DARTs throughout the day help hardly anyone at Portmarnock. I invite you to visit and look at the scattering of passengers at non-peak times. Portmarnock is a rat race commuter station.

devnull wrote: »

I've witnessed the same on Malahide DARTs at Clontarf in evening peak, and people being unable to board and the next train not for 40 minutes because of the woeful way the timetable is balanced between Howth and Malahide branches which means those people who are travelling from Clontarf to Clongriffin, Portmarnock and Malahide are REALLY shafted with the current timetable.

Removing diesels does not fix this. Besides, a hell of a lot more people are going to Connolly/Tara/Pearse than Clontarf.

devnull wrote: »

How many people do you think are boarding at Portmarnock between 7am and 8.30am on commuter trains (not including DART passengers) that will be displaced by this change?

Go down and take a look. Honestly, it's a hugely popular service. A lot of people prefer the direct service into Connolly. It gets them there quicker than a DART. I'd estimate the split is 50/50 between DART/Commuter passengers heading southbound.

devnull wrote: »

There are hundreds of people who work at Eastpoint and live in Portmarnock, Malahide and Clongriffin, because Eastpoint has very limited car parking. so the frequency is certainly a benefit to these people who no longer have to wait around for up to 40 minutes between trains at peak time and even then it is a struggle to board.

Not sure what Eastpoint has to do with removal of diesels from Portmarnock. It's possible to run the 20 minute Malahide DART service and still retain diesels at Portmarnock, Clongriffin and Howth Jct. They are not mutually exclusive.

Ireland trains

Irish rail said they will look at this in the coming weeks
Also there is the december timetable change and the commuter trains now take up to 6 min longer getting to connoly from mallahide even though 2-3 stops are gone
Also for greystones has twice the population of portmaranock but has a maximum of 3 trains an hour to dublin.

devnull

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Yes there is extra DART capacity, but there is significantly less capacity overall with the removal of diesel trains at rush hour. This is simply the fact of the matter: 4 trains is less than 8.

The overall capacity of the Diesel Trains is not important here, because the majority of them have a lot of passengers on them from north of Portmarnock who are using up such capacity so Portmarnock users cannot avail of most of it anyway because it's already taken by people further up the line.

What is important is the number of passengers who are traveling from Portmarnock in the mornings and ensuring there is room and available capacity for them to be able to get on the train and get to their destination.

Go down and take a look. Honestly, it's a hugely popular service. A lot of people prefer the direct service into Connolly. It gets them there quicker than a DART. I'd estimate the split is 50/50 between DART/Commuter passengers heading southbound.

So you're saying that you know that the DART would not be able to cope with the extra numbers, but you don't know how many there are? How many? Just give me a ballpark? 500? 1000? 2000? You say the commuters are well used, so you must have some rough idea of how many passengers from Portmarnock to come to this conclusion?

My opinions are based on my own experiences, I have spent years commuting on the Malahide branch of the DART and I can assure you that the current timetable does not serve users of Malahide DART services who cannot avail of commuter services at all well and Howth very much has an oversupply of services at the moment.

Not sure what Eastpoint has to do with removal of diesels from Portmarnock. It's possible to run the 20 minute Malahide DART service and still retain diesels at Portmarnock, Clongriffin and Howth Jct. They are not mutually exclusive.

Actually Irish Rail have told me that is the reason that Howth currently has such a high frequency in evening peak compared to Malahide, is because that there are no paths under the current timetable north of Howth Junction.

The 18:00 from Clontarf to Malahide for example, is the last Malahide branch train until 18:46, both of which are absolutely jam packed until at Least Howth Junction, normally Clongriffin and I've seen many people faint on these and pass out and not be able to board. Such a gap at peak time is ridiculous and is by far the primary cause of Malahide DART congestion in the later end of evening peak. The new timetable will help with that.

Colonel Claptrap

devnull wrote: »

The overall capacity of the Diesel Trains is not important here, because the majority of them have a lot of passengers on them from north of Portmarnock who are using up such capacity so Portmarnock users cannot avail of most of it anyway because it's already taken by people further up the line.

What is important is the number of passengers who are traveling from Portmarnock in the mornings and ensuring there is room and available capacity for them to be able to get on the train and get to their destination.

First of all, there are no seats on either DART or commuter services at Portmarnock in the morning. But there is always sufficient room to stand. Capacity is not constrained at Portmarnock. Nobody gets left behind on the platform.

Secondly, capacity only becomes an issue on board DART as it gets closer to the city. People faint, get crushed, or can't board at around Clontarf, as you well know.

From a Portmarnock passenger's perspective. This is rarely a problem, as they will likely have found a seat as the DART continues toward town, or happily stood for the 15min journey to Connolly on the Commuter service.

Now, 8 trainloads of Portmarnock passengers will be crammed into 4 DARTs during rush hour. Along with the extra Clongriffin passengers.

devnull wrote: »

So you're saying that you know that the DART would not be able to cope with the extra numbers, but you don't know how many there are? How many? Just give me a ballpark? 500? 1000? 2000? You say the commuters are well used, so you must have some rough idea of how many passengers from Portmarnock to come to this conclusion?

The transport census should give you this data.

By the way, my gripe is not with capacity issues. Its with the severe loss of frequency at rush hour, on top of the loss of the 'fast' direct Connolly service.

devnull wrote: »

My opinions are based on my own experiences, I have spent years commuting on the Malahide branch of the DART!

As are mine. We've probably sat next to each other for years


I just watched about 80 people get off the northbound diesel at Portmarnock. It's a tight squeeze trying to manouvere up the platform with so many people queuing for the single (inadequate) leap card machine. As I said, it's a very popular service.

devnull

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

First of all, there are no seats on either DART or commuter services at Portmarnock in the morning. But there is always sufficient room to stand. Capacity is not constrained at Portmarnock. Nobody gets left behind on the platform.

You clearly haven't traveled on the 6.34am for the last while, because there are plenty on that one if you know where to look. In fact, when I used to take it up until earlier in the year I often had a bank of four to myself even at Howth Junction!

Secondly, capacity only becomes an issue on board DART as it gets closer to the city. People faint, get crushed, or can't board at around Clontarf, as you well know.

People who are traveling on the section which all trains run on and not to/from either branch will see their service go from 4 trains an hour to 6 an hour so that should hopefully spread the load around more and free up more space for people who need either branch rather than can take any train.

Now, 8 trainloads of Portmarnock passengers will be crammed into 4 DARTs during rush hour. Along with the extra Clongriffin passengers.

But Is there really many more than 100 people getting on each of those diesels at Portmarnock every day? Even if the extra DART an hour is a 6 car, it's going to result in just short of 400 extra seats an hour and room for at least another 250 standing, so that's 650 of the passengers cated for straight away.

By the way, my gripe is not with capacity issues. Its with the severe loss of frequency at rush hour, on top of the loss of the 'fast' direct Connolly service.

I understand that - however it has to be balanced, Portmarnock has a really frequent service now, but in order to provide that (according to Irish Rail) other stations are having gaps of 30-45 minutes in service at peak times to the point that they cannot board, whilst the Howth Branch has much higher frequency than needed.

I just watched about 80 people get off the northbound diesel at Portmarnock. It's a tight squeeze trying to manouvere up the platform with so many people queuing for the single (inadequate) leap card machine. As I said, it's a very popular service.

I'm well aware of the Northbound issue in the night. Count the number of Howth DARTS in evening peak to the number of Malahide and you'll see where the problem is with the current timetable, Howth can be virtually every 10 minutes at times whereas Malahide is never better than 30 minutes and there's that big 45 minute gap which can't disappear soon enough which probably contributes to the commuter loading.

I've actually been on Howth trains in evening peak where more people got off to change for a Malahide train than were actually left on-board the Howth Train, which sounds ridiculous, but it does happen!

Colonel Claptrap

Twice as many passengers waiting on Portmarnock and Clongriffin platforms this morning. Eventually a 6 carriage DART arrived. This is 8am and they send out 6 carriages!

To add insult to injury, a diesel commuter ambled through, obviously held up by something further up the line.

Granted, there will always be issues on the first day of a new timetable. Will continue to monitor this week and next.

Update: by Raheny there is very little standing room left. Here comes a crush.

lawred2

Standing room only after Portmarnock on the 814

Colonel Claptrap

lawred2 wrote: »

Standing room only after Portmarnock on the 814

Only barely....

Deviso

Does anyone know what the 7:37 from Clongriffin was like.

Colonel Claptrap

My 26 min DART journey arrived 10mins late.

In addition, It took almost a full minute to disembark because of the sardines blocking the exit to the doors.

I'm amazed this timetable was introduced when the schools are back. Surely a summertime rollout would have given them time to react and adjust without putting passenger safety at risk.

devnull

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

My 26 min DART journey arrived 10mins late.

In addition, It took almost a full minute to disembark because of the sardines blocking the exit to the doors.

I'm amazed this timetable was introduced when the schools are back. Surely a summertime rollout would have given them time to react and adjust without putting passenger safety at risk.

Every timetable change leads to this, because people turn up for the old times on the first few days until they get used to the new change and then loading spreads around a little bit.

I was once on a DB route that was every 20 minutes that went to every 10 minutes during peak. For the first little while the 7.20am and 7.40am were packed and standing room only and the 7.30am was empty. You need to give it time.

PCros

lawred2 wrote: »

Standing room only after Portmarnock on the 814

Was the 8:14 a half length train?

I used to get the 8:11 and went for the 7:55 this morning just to be safe and it was a half length train and it was crammed at Kilbarrack.

lawred2

PCros wrote: »

Was the 8:14 a half length train?

I used to get the 8:11 and went for the 7:55 this morning just to be safe and it was a half length train and it was crammed at Kilbarrack.

No I think it was the full extent of the platform. Used to get the 811 myself. I'll miss it. 30 minutes into town will get very frustrating.

LeinsterDub

Does IE not have enough carriages or are shorter trains being run to save money?

Infini

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Does IE not have enough carriages or are shorter trains being run to save money?

More frequency = shorter trains. Capacity was one of the victims of the 10m service being introduced.

devnull

Infini wrote: »

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Does IE not have enough carriages or are shorter trains being run to save money?

More frequency = shorter trains. Capacity was one of the victims of the 10m service being introduced.

There are a higher number of DART carriages in service at peak time now than before the timetable change.

Think the belief that you seem to suggest that there are less DART coaches in service than before is ridiculously hyperbolic.

Even if they didn't add any more and kept the same capacity would be the same it would just be spread different on DART services.