Insurance question - am I missing something?

tnegun

Hey guys, Am toying with the idea of not re insuring our second car when it falls due in a couple of weeks price has gone to over €700(10 plus years NCB) and I don't have it right now. The policy on the main car covers myself and the OH and allows me to drive another car 3rd party so was thinking that would suffice for cover.

So the things I've though of

Value of the car is €2000-€3000 on a good day so I'm not too concerned re somthing happening in it.
I won't have an insurance disc but will be covered so potentially a €60 fine if stopped - will carry my cert of ins from the other car and the car is driven 60k per week tops so am hoping this will lessen the chance of that happening!

The NCB on the other policy will expire in 2 years so to keep would need to take out a policy with in before then.

What am I missing?

Dr Turk Turkelton

To use third party extension the car can't be owned by you or your wife.

Reputable Rog

tnegun wrote: »

Hey guys, Am toying with the idea of not re insuring our second car when it falls due in a couple of weeks price has gone to over €700(10 plus years NCB) and I don't have it right now. The policy on the main car covers myself and the OH and allows me to drive another car 3rd party so was thinking that would suffice for cover.

So the things I've though of

Value of the car is €2000-€3000 on a good day so I'm not too concerned re somthing happening in it.
I won't have an insurance disc but will be covered so potentially a €60 fine if stopped - will carry my cert of ins from the other car and the car is driven 60k per week tops so am hoping this will lessen the chance of that happening!

The NCB on the other policy will expire in 2 years so to keep would need to take out a policy with in before then.

What am I missing?

A day in court.

tnegun

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

To use third party extension the car can't be owned by you or your wife.

I thought of this but it doesn't state that anywhere on my cert of insurance just that myself or my employeer can't own it. Or that it belong to any motor trade related business that I have a professional relationship with.

Cracker86

The driving other cars extension excludes cars you have a financial interest in, and is only meant for infrequent use.

Its not a solution to your problem.

However as you are comfortable driving the car with reduced cover (TP) have you looked at stripping the level of cover on your policy down to the most basic level of cover available?

tnegun

Reputable Rog wrote: »

A day in court.

My policy covers me to drive another car so long as I have the owners consent.

Scienceless

Reputable Rog wrote: »

A day in court.

Correct.

tnegun

Cracker86 wrote: »

The driving other cars extension excludes cars you have a financial interest in, and is only meant for infrequent use.

Its not a solution to your problem.

However as you are comfortable driving the car with reduced cover (TP) have you looked at stripping the level of cover on your policy down to the most basic level of cover available?

Where can I find more on the financial interest bit? From memory last year I looked at the 3rd party option but there was very little in it. I haven't started to shop around yet so was exploring the option of leaving it uninsured. I only need it for the winter really and quite infrequenty at that(days I can't cycle to work because of the weather really)

irishgeo

3rd party extension only covers another car if it has valid insurance cover. In your case you won't.

CeilingFly

€700??

Assuming no penalty points you should be able to get insurance for about €400 or less if tpft is sufficient.

Currently liberty and aig are pushing in the market.

If you have home insurance it with them it saves about €50, if you put both drivers as named on policy it saves with aig, if you increase the excess to €500 it saves

And then once you get a good quote, ring them and ask if they could knock any more off.

Most will have ability to apply a discretionary discount of € 50.

Cracker86

tnegun wrote: »

Where can I find more on the financial interest bit? From memory last year I looked at the 3rd party option but there was very little in it. I haven't started to shop around yet so was exploring the option of leaving it uninsured. I only need it for the winter really and quite infrequenty at that(days I can't cycle to work because of the weather really)

Trust me from an insurance point of view, your wife owning the vehicle would be recognised as you having financial interest,

Some insurers offer very little reduction when moving from comp to third party and others offer a much more beneficial price for the cover reduction, so my advice would be to shop around. Also if you rarely use the car make insurers aware of that as some offer reductions for low milage users.

tnegun

irishgeo wrote: »

3rd party extension only covers another car if it has valid insurance cover. In your case you won't.

I heard this too but can't find any evidence of this either

Del2005

I was renewing insurance for both my mother and father recently and both have cars over 10 years old. The quotes for 3rd party where double or triple the fully comp quotes.

OP you and your spouse jointly own everything. So you own the car and won't be able to drive on 3rd party extension. You will most likely get by the Gardaí but you won't get past the insurance company when you need it.

Eggs For Dinner

We need a sticky on this subject. There is at least one thread a week on it and it always descends into misinformation

tnegun

CeilingFly wrote: »

€700??

Assuming no penalty points you should be able to get insurance for about €400 or less if tpft is sufficient.

Currently liberty and aig are pushing in the market.

If you have home insurance it with them it saves about €50, if you put both drivers as named on policy it saves with aig, if you increase the excess to €500 it saves

And then once you get a good quote, ring them and ask if they could knock any more off.

Most will have ability to apply a discretionary discount of € 50.

I did all this last year and got it down to about 550 no penalty points or convictions etc for either driver haven't called around yet but the renewal that arrived Friday was for €695 sub €400 I would jump at. Car is 11 years old if it makes any odds

tnegun

Del2005 wrote: »

I was renewing insurance for both my mother and father recently and both have cars over 10 years old. The quotes for 3rd party where double or triple the fully comp quotes.

OP you and your spouse jointly own everything. So you own the car and won't be able to drive on 3rd party extension. You will most likely get by the Gardaí but you won't get past the insurance company when you need it.

I hear what you're saying but if that's the case I can just put the car in one of the kids or another relatives name?

Del2005

tnegun wrote: »

I hear what you're saying but if that's the case I can just put the car in one of the kids or another relatives name?

Yes. A relative would be better.

pearcider

irishgeo wrote: »

3rd party extension only covers another car if it has valid insurance cover. In your case you won't.

This is wrong. The other car does not need insurance cover. In fact the third party extension usually states the opposite ie the other car must not have its own insurance cover. Ring your insurance company.

CiniO

OP if I were you I would disregard most advice from this thread.
Imo what you're planning to do should work fine.
Just make sure with your insurance company that your driving other cars extension includes a car owned and registered in your wife's name.
I used to do it a quite bit and had no problems.
Allianz and 123 make no problem allowing your spouse's car to be driven under driving other cars extension.

coylemj

irishgeo wrote: »

3rd party extension only covers another car if it has valid insurance cover. In your case you won't.

pearcider wrote: »

This is wrong. The other car does not need insurance cover.

Neither of you is 100% correct. Aviva and Liberty both state that in order to be covered (under your own policy) when driving a borrowed car, that car must have a policy of it's own. It's precisely to stop the situation the OP is describing. The car's own policy doesn't have to cover you, it just needs some class of a policy to be in force.

pearcider wrote: »

In fact the third party extension usually states the opposite ie the other car must not have its own insurance cover.

That is a misinterpretation of the clause in a lot of 'driving other cars' sections of insurance policies where they state that your own policy will only cover you if the car's own policy does not. It does not mean that the car you borrow must have no policy.

pearcider wrote: »

Ring your insurance company.

No, read the policy. What a call agent tells you on the phone counts for zero.

coylemj

CiniO wrote: »

Allianz and 123 make no problem allowing your spouse's car to be driven under driving other cars extension.

Cinio, I don't know about Allianz but you are correct with regard to 123.

There was a recent thread in this forum (link below) on the same subject. The OP in that case is insured with 123 and there appears to be no reason why he couldn't drive his girlfriend's uninsured car while she could drive his car because she was a named driver on his policy.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057901193

CiniO

coylemj wrote: »

Cinio, I don't know about Allianz but you are correct with regard to 123.

There was a recent thread in this forum (link below) on the same subject. The OP in that case is insured with 123 and there appears to be no reason why he couldn't drive his girlfriend's uninsured car while she could drive his car because she was a named driver on his policy.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057901193

I just listed Allianz and 123 as those are two insures I got this information from in writing.
I assume others should be similar, unless it's stated in their policy that driving other cars excludes spouses/partner's car which some do.

Bogwoppit

coylemj wrote: »

irishgeo wrote: »

3rd party extension only covers another car if it has valid insurance cover. In your case you won't.

pearcider wrote: »

This is wrong. The other car does not need insurance cover.

Neither of you is 100% correct. Aviva and Liberty both state that in order to be covered (under your own policy) when driving a borrowed car, that car must have a policy of it's own. It's precisely to stop the situation the OP is describing. The car's own policy doesn't have to cover you, it just needs some class of a policy to be in force.

pearcider wrote: »

In fact the third party extension usually states the opposite ie the other car must not have its own insurance cover.

That is a misinterpretation of the clause in a lot of 'driving other cars' sections of insurance policies where they state that your own policy will only cover you if the car's own policy does not. It does not mean that the car you borrow must have no policy.

pearcider wrote: »

Ring your insurance company.

No, read the policy. What a call agent tells you on the phone counts for zero.

This right here ^^^
You will not be insured in any way.

pearcider

Bogwoppit wrote: »

This right here ^^^
You will not be insured in any way.

Wrong. I’m with axa and have checked it out. The stipulation that people may have a problem with is you cannot own the car. Therefore you must sell the car for it to work. Putting it in the name of someone who is named on the policy also will not work. It will clearly only work with cheap cars too as you will have third party cover only.

Eggs For Dinner

What nobody ever considers on this topic is the liability the car owner can have in the event of an accident. Driving of other cars will cover the drivers actions while driving. However, if the vehicle is defective (even if unknown to anyone) and that is the cause of the accident, then it is likely the car owner will be joined in the action.

When you insure your own car, the policy covers your liability for both the ownership and driving of the vehicle. If there is no policy in place, the registered owner could be in bother

Del2005

CiniO wrote: »

I just listed Allianz and 123 as those are two insures I got this information from in writing.
I assume others should be similar, unless it's stated in their policy that driving other cars excludes spouses/partner's car which some do.

Because insurance companies change their policies and level of cover regularly you can never rely on what happened last year being valid this year. So the only way to do it is to call every year to confirm.

coylemj

Del2005 wrote: »

Because insurance companies change their policies and level of cover regularly you can never rely on what happened last year being valid this year. So the only way to do it is to call every year to confirm.

If the terms and conditions change, they will update their policy document which every insurance company has on their wesbsite to download.

CiniO

Del2005 wrote: »

Because insurance companies change their policies and level of cover regularly you can never rely on what happened last year being valid this year. So the only way to do it is to call every year to confirm.

Allianz haven't made changes to their policy document since 2012.

tnegun

Thanks for all the input guys, I'm just off the phone with the insurance company and there's no issue doing this the only problem the agent made me aware of was that I should remove the disc from my own car and display in the second to avoid any issues with AGS. He referred me to the terms set out on the cert of insurance and said to go by those and there is no mention of the other car being, insured, financial interest etc. so looks like I'm good to go. In any case I'll probably renew the insurance on the second in the New Year when money isn't as tight!

Eggs For Dinner

It is an offence to display an insurance disc on any vehicle other than the one it is issued for

coylemj

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

It is an offence to display an insurance disc on any vehicle other than the one it is issued for

Bu the OP will be insured and that's the important part.

Yes, there are issues about ownership that you raised above and the disc will be an issue but the OP will have third party cover and that is what really matters. OP can deal with the disc issue any way he pleases, it's between him and the cops.

To those posters who confidently said that he would not be insured, you cannot make such a statement without knowing which company the OP is insured with because the terms and conditions vary considerably with the conditions attached to their 'driving other cars' cover.....

Some companies say 'occasional use' others do not. Some companies exclude a car owned by your spouse or partner. Some exclude a car owned by anyone in your housheold. Some companies just say that it cannot be leased by your employer. The only common condition is that it cannot be a car owned or rented by you.

The answer as always is this: read the policy document.

Eggs For Dinner

coylemj wrote:

Bu the OP will be insured and that's the important part.

If the insurance rep gave him the advice to put the disc on another vehicle, I would question his ability to advise him on the core issue of cover.

As you say, the policy is king

coylemj

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

If the insurance rep gave him the advice to put the disc on another vehicle, I would question his ability to advise him on the core issue of cover.

+1 I would question the ability of any call agent to advise on cover, that is not what they are there for. I'd be 110% certain that they are under strict instructions to respond to any such query with the same answer: 'read the policy document that's on our website in conjunction with the schedule and cert. we sent you after your last renewal'.

Eggs For Dinner

coylemj wrote: »

+1 I would question the ability of any call agent to advise on cover, that is not what they are there for. I'd be 110% certain that they are under strict instructions to respond to any such query with the same answer: 'read the policy document that's on our website in conjunction with the schedule and cert. we sent you after your last renewal'.

I have to agree. IMO, the technical standard of today's call centre staff is very poor and bad advice given by many is the reason we have so many threads here with a clusterfluck of misinformation, based on what posters have been told by them

tnegun

Talk about a right balls, the cheapest insurance I can get is Fully Comp for about €500 with everything stripped from the policy and excess increased so I went back down the route of using my own policy called the broker to confirm.
I was first told it needed to be insured then I queried and was told it didn't, was then told my wife couldn't own it and I queried it and was told they weren't sure but it would be best if she didn't I suggested giving it to a brother and that was OK and was referred to the policy doc this time over the cert of insurance!

coylemj

tnegun wrote: »

I was first told it needed to be insured then I queried and was told it didn't, was then told my wife couldn't own it and I queried it and was told they weren't sure but it would be best if she didn't I suggested giving it to a brother and that was OK and was referred to the policy doc this time over the cert of insurance!

Ringing your insurance company is bad enough when all you're going to get is a call agent who is not authorised to discuss cover. Asking your broker as you've discovered is even more pointless, they haven't a clue.

Why are you asking the broker those questions when all you have to do is download the policy document and read it?

Eggs For Dinner

tnegun wrote: »

I suggested giving it to a brother and that was OK and was referred to the policy doc this time over the cert of insurance!

Read the certificate, the schedule and the policy as a combined entity. Some policy books contain all the conditions available and your specific schedule may say something like Endorsements 1, 9, 23 and 65 apply to your cover. The certificate should be very precise under Description of Vehicle

tnegun

Will dig them out when I get home, I only rang them because I didn't want to interpret it incorrectly e.g. just see what I wanted to see. I spelt out exactly what I wanted to do on the phone so there could be no confusion Thanks for all the help this far!

Eggs For Dinner

coylemj wrote: »

Ringing your insurance company is bad enough when all you're going to get is a call agent who is not authorised to discuss cover. Asking your broker as you've discovered is even more pointless, they haven't a clue.

As you know, insurers and brokers don't exactly allocate their key staff to handling motor insurance. There is not enough money in it for them to pay for quality insurance professionals (generally speaking)

coylemj

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

As you know, insurers and brokers don't exactly allocate their key staff to handling motor insurance. There is not enough money in it for them to pay for quality insurance professionals (generally speaking)

Regardless of how profitable the business is, neither insurance companies or their brokers should be giving policyholders legal advice (on the terms and conditions of a policy of insurance) over the phone, period.

If you're unsure about your cover, read your policy document.

Spook_ie

coylemj wrote: »

Regardless of how profitable the business is, neither insurance companies or their brokers should be giving policyholders legal advice (on the terms and conditions of a policy of insurance) over the phone, period.

If you're unsure about your cover, read your policy document.

You should also read the actual certificate of Motor Insurance and check it says you are covered under section 2 ( if it's 123 )

https://www.123.ie/downloads/RSAMotorPolicy1016.pdf

This cover may not apply to Your Policy. Before driving another car please check
Your Certificate of Motor Insurance

tnegun

Policy has f all detail about it just says if I have taken the other car option I'm covered, cert says I'm covered my mention of it being insured or owned by my wife so looks like I'm good to go

lawred2

CeilingFly wrote: »

€700??

Assuming no penalty points you should be able to get insurance for about €400 or less if tpft is sufficient.

Currently liberty and aig are pushing in the market.

If you have home insurance it with them it saves about €50, if you put both drivers as named on policy it saves with aig, if you increase the excess to €500 it saves

And then once you get a good quote, ring them and ask if they could knock any more off.

Most will have ability to apply a discretionary discount of € 50.

Well cheapest 3rd party quote I got for my wife on 10 year old 1.4 petrol golf was 750 as of last night.

Waiting to see what our broker can do but every quote from chill was over 1000. The 750 came from Axa through a broker channel.

It's a joke

Eggs For Dinner

tnegun wrote: »

Policy has f all detail about it just says if I have taken the other car option I'm covered, cert says I'm covered my mention of it being insured or owned by my wife so looks like I'm good to go

To satisfy everybody's curiosity here, can you type out the section on your certificate relating to the vehicles you can drive?

tnegun

Will post a pic of it when I get home this evening
Edit Just that section of course!

coylemj

OP, in case we can't tell from the cert., can you tell us which insurance co. you're with? I'm surprised that you say there is no detail on the conditions under which you can drive other cars, every policy document I've read (and I've pretty much seen them all) has several conditions and exclusions.

coylemj

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

To satisfy everybody's curiosity here, can you type out the section on your certificate relating to the vehicles you can drive?

Don't see the point, the conditions and exclusions for driving other cars are not documented on the cert.

tnegun

Apologies my mistake it was the Policy summary that didn't give more detail The insurer is Allianz

Policy doc is here https://www.allianz.ie/car-insurance/faqs/motor_policy_document_0412.pdf

Endorsement 4 pg.16 is almost verbatim of what it says on the cert.

Cert also references Section 4.2 pg 13 re Temp substitutions

Policy Summary is here https://www.allianz.ie/car-insurance/faqs/motor_policy_summary_0612.pdf

coylemj

Allianz conditions for driving other cars follows. It's pretty generous in that it does not exclude cars owned by your partner or anyone in your immediate family or living in your 'household' as lots of other policies do......

Endorsement No 4 – Driving other Cars

We will insure You in respect of legal liability, as provided under Section 1 (Third Party Insurance) whilst You are driving another Private Car, provided such Private Car:

1. Does not belong to You or Your employer.
2. Is not hired or leased to either of the parties described above under a Hire Purchase or Leasing Agreement.
3. Is not the property of or in the custody or control of a Motor Trade business of which You are a director, member or employee.

Cover under this Endorsement is limited to use within Ireland and the United Kingdom only.

Eggs For Dinner

coylemj wrote: »

Don't see the point, the conditions and exclusions for driving other cars are not documented on the cert.

It usually does

In Allianz's situation it is under Section 5 on the Certificate; Vehicle or Classes of Vehicles, the use of which is covered

Spook_ie

tnegun wrote: »

Apologies my mistake it was the Policy summary that didn't give more detail The insurer is Allianz

Policy doc is here https://www.allianz.ie/car-insurance/faqs/motor_policy_document_0412.pdf

Endorsement 4 pg.16 is almost verbatim of what it says on the cert.

Cert also references Section 4.2 pg 13 re Temp substitutions

Policy Summary is here https://www.allianz.ie/car-insurance/faqs/motor_policy_summary_0612.pdf

What does ALMOST verbatim mean?

And does the certificate of insurance actually contain the wording that endorsement 4 is effective

The following Endorsements apply only if the Endorsement Number is shown in the
Schedule and are otherwise subject to the terms, conditions, exceptions and general
exceptions of Your Policy.