Star Trek: Picard - Amazon Prime [** POSSIBLE SPOILERS **]

Goodshape

Sad Professor wrote: »

I wish Kurtzman wasn't involved in this.

So say we all.

pixelburp

His presence is ... baffling. Well, not baffling but definitely unfortunate.

I actually think Romulus blowing up could work, if handled well. I never truly bought into them as a species, the Cardassians being more interesting variants of the "sneaky plotting" species, while the Vulcan-Romulan rivalry itself was just borrrrrrrring. As great as Spock's presence in TNG was, the actual Reunification story was just ... kinda whatever. The Vulcans were interesting because they surpassed their emotions, take that away and you got nothing special.

Nuking their sun is apocalyptic, but why not? It's a perfectly valid stellar event and one with numerous, interesting political and narrative possibilities. If it's handled right.

TheValeyard

There's a whole conic based around this.

Picard was working with Nero and Spock to save Romulus from destruction when the supernova (later revealed to be caused by external force) suddenly occurred, destroying the planet and Spock vanishes (presumed dead).

Picard sees this as a personal failure, and he resigns his commission.

Romulan Empire splits in two, with the Romulan & Remain Republic, with the rest forming the Imperial Romulan Empire with Sela as Empress.

Goodshape

What are those comics? Was it the Countdown thing? Thought I'd read those at the time but don't remember Picard resigning or anything.

Are they known to be prime timeline canon or what?

AMKC

It would be great to be back in the Prime aka proper Star Trek Universe again. I do think if the Romulans did have an Empire then there must still be some of them and it around. Maybe they are not now as powerful as they once were but it should still be there.

Optimus Prime

Goodshape wrote: »

What are those comics? Was it the Countdown thing? Thought I'd read those at the time but don't remember Picard resigning or anything.

Are they known to be prime timeline canon or what?

I don’t remember that in the comics either to be honest. I just remember them building the ship and Spock taking off it in etc.

TheValeyard

Picard resigning was either STO or memory Beta lore. Will check.


Edit: some of it here

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a863375/star-trek-picard-new-patrick-stewart/

AtomicHorror

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Yeh exactly nothing will be changed in the universe except for Romulus is destroyed and Spock took off in the time ship and was never seen again.

If the pre JJ movie comic is canon then isn’t Data Alive in that ? Him and Geordi build that time ship, is that right or am I going mad.

One other consequence of acknowledging the Prime elements of JJ's Star Trek is that USS Kelvin and USS Franklin are canon in the Prime universe, up to the point of divergence. I think most people liked Captain Robau and wouldn't mind seeing him in Discovery, even if they weren't keen on the JJ movies overall.

Goodshape

That would be interesting.

And what's George Kirk up to when he's not busy being dead? Is there anything known about the character outside of the JJ films?

seamus

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

There's a whole conic based around this.

Picard was working with Nero and Spock to save Romulus from destruction when the supernova (later revealed to be caused by external force) suddenly occurred, destroying the planet and Spock vanishes (presumed dead).

Picard sees this as a personal failure, and he resigns his commission.

Honestly, that all seems completely reasonable. With the exception of the external force causing a nova, maybe. That was probably included to help the narrative of that comic along.

I don't think the inclusion of Spock's disappearance (which actually removes any issues of trying to replace Nimoy) or the destruction of Romulus should be cause for concern just because of where they came from.

It really sets up a strong tone of personal struggle for Picard; the loss of a close friend and billions of Romulan lives because he couldn't save them is exactly the kind of thing that would weigh heavily on him.
Even in I, Borg his crew managed to convince him that his plan was genocide, and he abandoned it despite his intense personal hatred of the Borg.

AtomicHorror

Goodshape wrote: »

That would be interesting.

And what's George Kirk up to when he's not busy being dead? Is there anything known about the character outside of the JJ films?

Not much... he'd be in his 60s. In fact I'm not sure he was ever actually referred to directly in TOS. He might have been one of those characters who leaked into the canon from the various books.

Greyjoy

pixelburp wrote: »

The Vulcans were interesting because they surpassed their emotions, take that away and you got nothing special.

I always felt that the Romulans were never really a proper counterpart to their Vulcan cousins in the various series. Given that they were supposed to have broken away because they would not abandon their emotions the Romulans never really portrayed this apart from the odd smirk. They should have been an emotional, passionate species instead of just more totalitarian vulcans.

seamus

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Not much... he'd be in his 60s. In fact I'm not sure he was ever actually referred to directly in TOS. He might have been one of those characters who leaked into the canon from the various books.

Memory Alpha suggests he was talked around a lot by writers and there was a plot draft which included details of an away mission which went awry and resulted in his death, but ultimately he never made it into canon. Though for whatever reason the name "George" remained right up to 2009 despite have never been used officially.

pixelburp

Greyjoy wrote: »

I always felt that the Romulans were never really a proper counterpart to their Vulcan cousins in the various series. Given that they were supposed to have broken away because they would not abandon their emotions the Romulans never really portrayed this apart from the odd smirk. They should have been an emotional, passionate species instead of just more totalitarian vulcans.

Yeah, I don't think anyone really knew what to do with them TBH; if you take a reductionist view of Trek, you can easily pigeonhole most alien species as projections of humanity; warlike Klingons, rationalist Vulcans, greedy Ferenghi, etc. But the Romulans just felt superfluous.

They weren't even that visually interesting; obviously just lumpier Vulcans, wearing weird, shoulder padded tunics that looked really awkward for the actors to wear.

odyssey06

pixelburp wrote: »

Yeah, I don't think anyone really knew what to do with them TBH; if you take a reductionist view of Trek, you can easily pigeonhole most alien species as projections of humanity; warlike Klingons, rationalist Vulcans, greedy Ferenghi, etc. But the Romulans just felt superfluous.

They weren't even that visually interesting; obviously just lumpier Vulcans, wearing weird, shoulder padded tunics that looked really awkward for the actors to wear.

Great ships though! And some great episodes involving them as the antagonist in TOS and TNG.
But they even lost their 'unique selling point' weapon with the Klingons having cloaked birds of prey.

I suppose they have also suffered because we've had Vulcans, Ferengi, Klingons, Bajorans, Cardassians as main cast \ recurring cast but haven't had that with a Romulan so we've lacked that window on their culture.

AtomicHorror

The Romulans were political schemers, conspirators and all-round underhanded backstabbers. Supremacists to boot.

seamus

Since art tends to mirror reality in many ways, I always felt the Vulcans and Romulans were American reflections of post-war Europe and Russia, respectively.

One "race", but ultimately split into two factions; peaceful, scientific, and largely pacifist Vulcan, and authoritarian, cold, brutal Romulan.

To carry the analogy; the federation obviously being the US - determined to do the right thing, but not without passion and bravado. Klingons being Oriental Asia - in many ways a savage society build on a code of honour, but still capable of negotiation and a force to be reckoned with.

AMKC

AtomicHorror wrote: »

The Romulans were political schemers, conspirators and all-round underhanded backstabbers. Supremacists to boot.

I always thought of the Romulans as a bit like Russians in our time. They scheme, spy and never tell or admit the truth if found out. That poisoning of some of there former spies in England in that small town with no regard for anyone else's life being just one example of Russians disrespect for anyone. Not saying all Russians are bad but Putin certainly is bad.

pixelburp

AtomicHorror wrote: »

The Romulans were political schemers, conspirators and all-round underhanded backstabbers. Supremacists to boot.

All of which you kinda saw in the Cardassians, but they had more panache and depth IMO. Now, I'd say that was the DS9 writers having more runway to expand out what were ostensibly shallow villains in the TNG era, but their own scheming - not to mention their inverted sense of justice, which was inspired - felt more compelling than the bland & frosty Romulans.

AMKC

seamus wrote: »

Since art tends to mirror reality in many ways, I always felt the Vulcans and Romulans were American reflections of post-war Europe and Russia, respectively.

One "race", but ultimately split into two factions; peaceful, scientific, and largely pacifist Vulcan, and authoritarian, cold, brutal Romulan.

To carry the analogy; the federation obviously being the US - determined to do the right thing, but not without passion and bravado. Klingons being Oriental Asia - in many ways a savage society build on a code of honour, but still capable of negotiation and a force to be reckoned with.

To carry the analogy; the federation obviously being the US - determined to do the right thing, but not without passion and bravado.

I see it the opposite to you. Maybe that's how Americans view it but to me the Federation is Europe with passion and bravado and the Vulcans are America.

Nice to see we both agree on the Romulans do.

TheValeyard

The Romulan Deridex class warbird was a sexy ship though.

Kiith

Tomalak was also one of the better recurring villains in TNG. Mainly cause Andreas Katsulas was brilliant in everything.

TheValeyard

Kiith wrote: »

Tomalak was also one of the better recurring villains in TNG. Mainly cause Andreas Katsulas was brilliant in everything.

Yeah, loved him in Babylon 5.

That scene with him and Picard facing off in the Neutral zone was pure brilliance, especially the respectful nod he gives Picard after he realises he's been beaten.

helimachoptor

The love the change of music in this, for me its a real checkmate scene and one of Picards best imho.

Kirby

I've seen that a dozen times and it still gives me goosebumps. I want more moments like that.

God, I hope this new show is good.

Goodshape

Not much that couldn't be supposed already, but some more little tidbits from an interview with the Frakes:

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a26034044/jean-luc-picard-new-series-spin-off-done-with-starfleet-next-generation/

the article wrote:

Speaking to Deadline, the Next Generation star and Discovery director Jonathan Frakes offered an insight into what fans can expect from the Jean-Luc Picard revival.

Taking place in an entirely new timeline from The Next Generation, it turns out the new series will see Sir Patrick Stewart's Captain Picard step away from Starfleet.

the article wrote:

What does that mean for the rest of the crew, though? Reflecting on how the Next Generation cast might fit into the new series, the actor admitted that he and his co-stars would "love to be part of it, but the feeling is also that it's Patrick's show".

the article wrote:

When pressed on his involvement in the series, he declined to give anything significant away, but said: "I'm not allowed to say what role I have in the new series."

I'd like to think, and I definitely hope, that what Digital Spy call "an entirely new timeline" has more to do with time has passed, things are different, it's not the TNG-years and nothing at all to do with alternative/mirror/JJ anythings.

Sparko

Goodshape wrote: »

Not much that couldn't be supposed already, but some more little tidbits from an interview with the Frakes:

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a26034044/jean-luc-picard-new-series-spin-off-done-with-starfleet-next-generation/








I'd like to think, and I definitely hope, that what Digital Spy call "an entirely new timeline" has more to do with time has passed, things are different, it's not the TNG-years and nothing at all to do with alternative/mirror/JJ anythings.

Yeah I read that earlier and assumed it was just poor wording by Digital Spy.

AMKC

Goodshape wrote: »

Not much that couldn't be supposed already, but some more little tidbits from an interview with the Frakes:


I'd like to think, and I definitely hope, that what Digital Spy call "an entirely new timeline" has more to do with time has passed, things are different, it's not the TNG-years and nothing at all to do with alternative/mirror/JJ anythings.

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a26034044/jean-luc-picard-new-series-spin-off-done-with-starfleet-next-generation/

Going by that line there I would not be so sure it is but hopefully you are right and is just that time has passed and its not the TNG years anymore.

Inviere

Theory - It turns out Section 31 (big emphasis on S31 at the mo) are directly responsible for the 2387 Supernova, in an effort to destabilize the Romulan Empire, ultimately weakening it. This same tactic is what averted imminent war with the Klingons (destruction of Praxis). Learning this, Picard feels the Starfleet, and ultimately the Federation, isn't what he thought they were, and wants no part of them. He vows to spend his remaining days in a humanitarian role, assisting displaced Romulan civilians.

TheValeyard

Inviere wrote: »

Theory - It turns out Section 31 (big emphasis on S31 at the mo) are directly responsible for the 2387 Supernova, in an effort to destabilize the Romulan Empire, ultimately weakening it. This same tactic is what averted imminent war with the Klingons (destruction of Praxis). Learning this, Picard feels the Starfleet, and ultimately the Federation, isn't what he thought they were, and wants no part of them. He vows to spend his remaining days in a humanitarian role, assisting displaced Romulan civilians.

Interesting, but is probably a new foe.....or, a very very ancient one....