Golf in 2018 - the future of golf.

A few random thoughts from a social golfer, not a member of a club but I play probably at least 40 times a year at a guess. I also have kids who I would like to take up golf but none of them have.

Clubs are still intimidating. I think most people wouldn't know where to start and wouldn't dream of just rocking up to a club and asking to join. Even for me, golfing for 20 years and having played most courses around Dublin and many around the country the image of the stuffy golf club and all that it entails is off putting (even if it's not true, it's the image). I suspect plenty of people still imagine you have to be proposed by an existing member and pay some daft amount of money.

I don't really know how much can be done about that, but surely changing that perception is what getting kids involved should be about. On that note - how DO kids get out on a golf course if mum or dad isn't a member? It feels to me that there's nothing between 18 holes of full golf and pitch and putt out there. The latter is fine but it's not really golf. I know it isn't easy but I'd love to see more flexibility in that area. I'd love courses to be designed with shorter loops and to make it possible to let under 18s play 6 holes in the evenings (or whenever is quiet) for next to nothing, and make sure people know about it. Even a three hole par 3 course that is open to them all the time. Instead most clubs don't even have junior tees out so if a father and son want a game it's either 6,000 yards or the stigma of playing off the ladies (which should just be called red tees imho).

The club as a social club also might put people off. I want to play with my friends, not some randomer who puts his name down next to me on a timesheet. I know people will say that is not the spirit of the game but bottom line if I am giving up five hours of the day I want to know I am not going to have to spend it with somebody I don't like. Of course for others meeting new people is part of it but not for everybody. Rightly or wrongly some will think you give yourself over to a golf club entirely rather than just play golf.

Also pace of play but that is done to death already!

billy3sheets

Russman wrote: »

As someone mentioned earlier, people are selfish, so are clubs. An existing well established club doesn’t give a flying f—k about getting new kids in if they’ve already got a “production line” coming from existing members. Kids with no family already in golf find it very hard to get a club that’s accessible to them. The desired clubs are generally near the population centres but, say in dublin, often a junior (who’s father doesn’t play) can only get into somewhere well outside the M50, which is often impractical. It remains a difficult sport to break into.

Is this accurate? My 17yo son is a junior member in Clontarf. Although I play golf, I've no connection with Clontarf. His 2 best golf buddies parents don't play golf. From what I can see there, they actively try to get young kids to join, regardless of if their parents are members. They have a cheap probationary juvenile year first to let them see if they like the game without any big commitment. They always seem to be getting freebies and subsidised lessons too.

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

On that note - how DO kids get out on a golf course if mum or dad isn't a member? It feels to me that there's nothing between 18 holes of full golf and pitch and putt out there. The latter is fine but it's not really golf. I know it isn't easy but I'd love to see more flexibility in that area. I'd love courses to be designed with shorter loops and to make it possible to let under 18s play 6 holes in the evenings (or whenever is quiet) for next to nothing, and make sure people know about it. Even a three hole par 3 course that is open to them all the time. Instead most clubs don't even have junior tees out so if a father and son want a game it's either 6,000 yards or the stigma of playing off the ladies (which should just be called red tees imho).

They can play on any public course or just pay a greenfee....
Many clubs have junior tees also.

You cant really dedicate a whole area of the course to kids, its just too expensive.

Russman

billy3sheets wrote: »

Is this accurate? My 17yo son is a junior member in Clontarf. Although I play golf, I've no connection with Clontarf. His 2 best golf buddies parents don't play golf. From what I can see there, they actively try to get young kids to join, regardless of if their parents are members. They have a cheap probationary juvenile year first to let them see if they like the game without any big commitment. They always seem to be getting freebies and subsidised lessons too.

I’m sure some clubs are more open than others (whether through necessity or otherwise) but I think there’s still a very inward looking approach in lots of older established clubs, which they’re perfectly entitled to have, members will have paid many thousands of euro to join, they can pick and choose as they see fit.
FWIW I’m not a member of one of these clubs, far from it.
My point is that clubs don’t really care about the bigger picture or growing the game, they’d prefer a kid might help them win a senior cup rather than feel any sense of “allowing access to golf” to someone imo.

billy3sheets

Russman wrote: »

I’m sure some clubs are more open than others (whether through necessity or otherwise) but I think there’s still a very inward looking approach in lots of older established clubs, which they’re perfectly entitled to have, members will have paid many thousands of euro to join, they can pick and choose as they see fit.
FWIW I’m not a member of one of these clubs, far from it.
My point is that clubs don’t really care about the bigger picture or growing the game, they’d prefer a kid might help them win a senior cup rather than feel any sense of “allowing access to golf” to someone imo.

I'm not sure which "older established " clubs you're referring to Russman. Clontarf would certainly be categorised as one. That's the only one in the Dublin area I've any direct experience of.
It's possible the perception of these clubs is not the reality. Has anyone approached them to find out what their youth policy is?

I do believe lots of clubs, not just the older ones, need to extend their reach to youth though. There are many kids who don't enjoy the team sports on offer at school and are unaware of how they could get into golf.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

I’m sure some clubs are more open than others (whether through necessity or otherwise) but I think there’s still a very inward looking approach in lots of older established clubs, which they’re perfectly entitled to have, members will have paid many thousands of euro to join, they can pick and choose as they see fit.
FWIW I’m not a member of one of these clubs, far from it.
My point is that clubs don’t really care about the bigger picture or growing the game, they’d prefer a kid might help them win a senior cup rather than feel any sense of “allowing access to golf” to someone imo.

They don't have the liberty of can't about the bigger picture though. They are effectively responsible to their shareholders I.e. Members since they own the club. Unless a club has a dearth of young members I really don't see why they would be going out of their way to bring in young strangers that no-one has any connection with?

They want to grow the game in their own club but in a manageable way, no one in growing bigger than your course can support, the days of half your membership paying s connie is grand but not playing are long gone, everyone who pays now plays so the pressure on the course is immense and priority rightly gots to those paying the most.

We would never take on a good golfer over a members relation, we have even extended the reduced fees for nieces and nephews and grandkids rather than just kids of members.

If every club worked that way then the game grows, but it grows in a sustainable manner not the boom bust run we seem to be on.

Russman

billy3sheets wrote: »

I'm not sure which "older established " clubs you're referring to Russman. Clontarf would certainly be categorised as one. That's the only one in the Dublin area I've any direct experience of.
It's possible the perception of these clubs is not the reality. Has anyone approached them to find out what their youth policy is?

I do believe lots of clubs, not just the older ones, need to extend their reach to youth though. There are many kids who don't enjoy the team sports on offer at school and are unaware of how they could get into golf.

A 10 minute google search will throw up a number of clubs that state they are either closed for junior membership, or that junior members must have a parent or guardian as a member. No point in naming clubs here, it’s not the point of the thread. I’m not knocking these clubs either, I have no issue with them restricting membership as they see fit - their club, their rules.

As regards clubs extending their reach, I agree it’s an admirable goal, but if they already have enough juniors, why would they ?

Ollieboy

Their is a issue with insurance in relation to young people, I think under 12’s have to be accompanied. A lot of clubs aren’t on bus routes etc.

billy3sheets

Russman wrote: »

A 10 minute google search will throw up a number of clubs that state they are either closed for junior membership, or that junior members must have a parent or guardian as a member. No point in naming clubs here, it’s not the point of the thread. I’m not knocking these clubs either, I have no issue with them restricting membership as they see fit - their club, their rules.

As regards clubs extending their reach, I agree it’s an admirable goal, but if they already have enough juniors, why would they ?

Ok, I'm sure clubs may close it after they have filled their quota for junior members. Also, they may have restrictions on what times of the year they take in juniors, to align with coaching etc. I've not seen where juniors have to have a parent as a member - may need a member to propose them just like new adult members.

I know some secondary schools have golf teams and compete in inter-schools comps. I really like this idea as it promotes the awareness and accessibility of the game across the school, not just the ones who play. As with many school sports, I'm sure it's driven by teachers who play themselves. If clubs reached out to local schools, offering some coaching and some game time, I'm sure there would be some uptake on it.

billy3sheets

Ollieboy wrote: »

Their is a issue with insurance in relation to young people, I think under 12’s have to be accompanied. A lot of clubs aren’t on bus routes etc.

Hmm. I wouldn't overplay the accessibility thing. Most kids these days get dropped off by parents and don't take a bus anywhere for their sports.

The "must be accompanied by an adult" thing can be a pain ok. Not sure if it's even restricted to u12s. Not many members will fancy doing a round with kids and if you're not a member of their club, you've got to fork out a greeen fee, even for a casual round or just a few holes.

spacecoyote

Deleted User wrote: »

A few random thoughts from a social golfer, not a member of a club but I play probably at least 40 times a year at a guess.

Fair play to you, you're a more active social golfer than a lot of club golfers. I reckon 40 rounds a year would be a pretty good years golf for most members of a club.

Would there not be much more value to you in joining a club?

prawnsambo

Russman wrote: »

A 10 minute google search will throw up a number of clubs that state they are either closed for junior membership, or that junior members must have a parent or guardian as a member. No point in naming clubs here, it’s not the point of the thread. I’m not knocking these clubs either, I have no issue with them restricting membership as they see fit - their club, their rules.

As regards clubs extending their reach, I agree it’s an admirable goal, but if they already have enough juniors, why would they ?

I think there's a lot more to it than clubs simply making a choice. The most recent legislation: The Children First Act, requires risk assessments, liaison officers and children's officers to be appointed by a club amongst a raft of other requirements.

Afaik, even having children accompanied by parents or guardians just won't cut it any more.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think there's a lot more to it than clubs simply making a choice. The most recent legislation: The Children First Act, requires risk assessments, liaison officers and children's officers to be appointed by a club amongst a raft of other requirements.

Afaik, even having children accompanied by parents or guardians just won't cut it any more.

Exactly.
It's just not safe anymore to have young kids miles away from anyone else effectively in a field.

fred funk }{

GreeBo wrote: »

Exactly.
It's just not safe anymore to have young kids miles away from anyone else effectively in a field.

What?

They're not safe from what/whom?

plumber77

fred funk }{ wrote: »

What?

They're not safe from what/whom?

Water for one.

spacecoyote

spacecoyote wrote: »

Fair play to you, you're a more active social golfer than a lot of club golfers. I reckon 40 rounds a year would be a pretty good years golf for most members of a club.

Would there not be much more value to you in joining a club?

Not related to the thread really but just answering your question:

I could definitely save but I like the flexibility of choosing where to play each week and being able to go away for weekends etc which would be included in the 40x a year. I live in Dublin so I am on a different course every week and I like that variety.

There's also a reverse network effect where I have a decent number of people I play with (changes around but a good sized pool) and they aren't members either. If I commit to one club I am either asking those people to play as my guest and give up the single life or having to work into a new clique. It's not a tempting prospect to be honest.

BTW in all my time playing in and around Dublin I've only ever been approached once in the bar afterwards by someone who was obviously sizing me up for membership. Not that I would expect some rabid sales technique but if clubs are looking for members it wouldn't hurt.

londonred

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think there's a lot more to it than clubs simply making a choice. The most recent legislation: The Children First Act, requires risk assessments, liaison officers and children's officers to be appointed by a club amongst a raft of other requirements.

Afaik, even having children accompanied by parents or guardians just won't cut it any more.

I can remember caddying for my dad in the 80s then going out playing when he was having his 8 pints in the bar afterwards.

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

Exactly.
It's just not safe anymore to have young kids miles away from anyone else effectively in a field.

Well it is safe. If you follow the rules. The purpose of the Act is to protect children from harm and to provide a channel for them to report anything untoward. They don't have to use that channel, but it absolutely must be there and the procedures clearly documented and displayed.

You can't just appoint a children's officer and liaison officer and consider your responsibilities discharged. They have to be trained; there are three levels and iirc, at least one of those levels needs to be Garda vetted.

There's a very good page here that describes all the requirements.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well it is safe. If you follow the rules. The purpose of the Act is to protect children from harm and to provide a channel for them to report anything untoward. They don't have to use that channel, but it absolutely must be there and the procedures clearly documented and displayed.

You can't just appoint a children's officer and liaison officer and consider your responsibilities discharged. They have to be trained; there are three levels and iirc, at least one of those levels needs to be Garda vetted.

There's a very good page here that describes all the requirements.

The whole point of having someone for them to report to is because its not always safe.

You wouldn't put a bunch of 10 year olds in a field on their own 2 miles from anyone, giving them golf clubs doesn't make that ok.

There could be anyone wandering onto a golf course and these kids are vulnerable if they are out their on their own for hours.

charlieIRL

I'm a soccer coach for a good few years now and have my safeguarding / child welfare courses done and i can tell you i wouldn't be letting any kids out on a course unsupervised.

Apart from what's mentioned above, what if a child got struck by a ball? or a club by standing too close to someone taking a shot or even practice swing? You can say that this will never happen, but it might. Accidents do happen. Imagine a child got hit in the head at the furthest part of the course?

GreeBo

charlieIRL wrote: »

I'm a soccer coach for a good few years now and have my safeguarding / child welfare courses done and i can tell you i wouldn't be letting any kids out on a course unsupervised.

Apart from what's mentioned above, what if a child got struck by a ball? or a club by standing too close to someone taking a shot or even practice swing? You can say that this will never happen, but it might. Accidents do happen. Imagine a child got hit in the head at the furthest part of the course?

We had the unfortunate incident a few years ago where a group of young kids who were part of a kids camp on some holes off the main course narrowly missed finding the body of a young man who had hung himself overnight because the an adult present found him first and diverted them.

Granted its not a likely scenario but it happens. Whats far more likely is a child getting injured (they are lunatics when it comes to hitting at each other or swinging when someone in near them) OR someone up to no good intercepting them on the course.

Its one thing having them on the practice area near the clubhouse, having them miles away on the course is just not sensible.

charlieIRL

Crikey, that's horrendous. A unique situation but one that can, unfortunately, happen anywhere.

Agreed, if they are to be there - they should be supervised near the clubhouse.

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

The whole point of having someone for them to report to is because its not always safe.

You wouldn't put a bunch of 10 year olds in a field on their own 2 miles from anyone, giving them golf clubs doesn't make that ok.

There could be anyone wandering onto a golf course and these kids are vulnerable if they are out their on their own for hours.

Did you even read that link? For the purposes of the Act, a child is anyone under the age of eighteen.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Did you even read that link? For the purposes of the Act, a child is anyone under the age of eighteen.

I don't get your point?
10 is under 18 right?

FixdePitchmark

Lads - I know all these bad things happen.

But you got to live too - I was looking for golf balls and playing golf in fields at 10 / 11 on my own. I was going to the shop at about 7 on my own.

Kids are allowed to stay online all day unsupervised and have mobile phones at crazy ages.

In my place, you see kids on the course at about 10 to 16 alone - at 16, kids are competing in top level amateur stuff. You have to be on full courses for years at that point if you or your club is taking it serious.

Great to see kids out. They are slow , but they respond if you let them know.

But again - from an introduction to golf perspective. The course is not the place.

You just need to be lucky at present to have a good par 3 or short casual golf course near you.

There is potential in the likes of ranges and technology and Top golf.
But big investment.

I'm a member of a club myself - but would agree with an earlier post. The atmosphere in a golf club has a unique and is even different from one club to another. I love golf - but don't like many aspects of golf clubs.

Whilst I maintain that clubs could do more and haven't done enough (IMO)

At present a golf club is not the right place to introduce someone to golf. I'd have to agree with that point being made.

Again - other sports go to schools - a track-man and a pro visiting school halls - would be a massive hit (IMO).

We are just, as a sport, not even exposing kids to a golf club. They don't see golf on tv.

It is a hopeless effort we are making as a sport.

Got a flier over the last few months about cricket and tennis , GAA, Rugby - all in the door for kids summer activities. We are just years behind.

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Lads - I know all these bad things happen.

But you got to live too - I was looking for golf balls and playing golf in fields at 10 / 11 on my own. I was going to the shop at about 7 on my own.

Who is saying you can't live?
Why does everything have to go to such melodramatic depths every time?

Again - other sports go to schools - a track-man and a pro visiting school halls - would be a massive hit (IMO).

We are just, as a sport, not even exposing kids to a golf club. They don't see golf on tv.

It is a hopeless effort we are making as a sport.

Got a flier over the last few months about cricket and tennis , GAA, Rugby - all in the door for kids summer activities. We are just years behind.

Who's be bringing this trackman and why exactly?

What soccer or rugby do you are on tv that didn't have corresponding golf on it? There is golf on tv 24 x 7 x 365, far more than any other sport.


You are getting flyers from clubs looking for members, they are not growing the game out of the goodness of their hearts. If you aren't getting flyers from local golf clubs is because they don't need or wasn't any new kid members, don't get so melodramatic on your quest to blame golf clubs for the world's ills.

Minderbinder

GreeBo wrote: »

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Lads - I know all these bad things happen.

But you got to live too - I was looking for golf balls and playing golf in fields at 10 / 11 on my own. I was going to the shop at about 7 on my own.

Who is saying you can't live?
Why does everything have to go to such melodramatic depths every time?

You’re the one worried about children finding corpses on golf courses and yet you’re accusing others of being melodramatic?

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

I don't get your point?
10 is under 18 right?

Yes. But that's not the point of the legislation. This legislation is to protect under eighteens from any kind of abuse or exploitation whilst engaging in sport and ensuring those who come in contact with under eighteens are properly trained and vetted to the standard required. In addition there is the responsibility for the club to publish its child safeguarding statement and appoint a properly trained and vetted person to liaise with children or their parents who have raised an issue with them and to forward that to the relevant authority without reference to committees or other internal structures. It also requires that ALL members are aware of the safeguarding statement and have indicated such on their renewal form.

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

Who is saying you can't live?
Why does everything have to go to such melodramatic depths every time?

Ok Alfred Hitchcock on the golf course with the dead body. Was there a trophy for the guy who saved the kids from the Stand By Me moment

FixdePitchmark

@GreeBo you have made it fairly clear the function of your golf club. We have accepted that golf clubs (most) are not the right place to develop the sport to a wider base.

I don't think you should just be blinded by your own experience of golf. You shouldn't be using it as a solution to all the ills in the world

In relation to who should develop the sport to a wider base. I think we have hit the nail on the head. There isn't an effective body. We are not doing what other sports are doing. Development officers, camps, school visits etc.

People in golf clubs are interested in (their) golf clubs
The GUI are interested in golf clubs
The GUI develop people from golf clubs

From my own experience in golf (played at most levels and locations) and with my kids - I just see how weak golf is in this area.

In relation to who would visit schools etc - a pro - paid pro - paid for by CGI or R&A or GUI. You would have no problem getting young pros to do it and even have it as a module in becoming a pro. Golf is incredibly impactful when you see it , when you feel it , when you swing , when you hit the ball. These small moments and days. Have a very big impact on a young mind. I've seen it in person with local kids.

I guess we are looking for ideas - or trying to find out why golf is so behind so many other sports.

I'm not trying to blame the world - you love golf - I love golf. We have had very different routes to the game and it is about having an open mind.

In relation to golf on tv :eek:

The Open is not even on BBC :eek: The earliest exposure to any golf for any kid growing up.
Was away this year and only got to see highlights most days - just crazy stuff for exposure of our sport.

Golf has so much to offer - but we are not offering it is my view.