Golf in 2018 - the future of golf.

FixdePitchmark

Over the last few years the game has and is trying to change - even the R&A /GUI are on board, but Is it all a bit forced ?

Where do you think golf sits in 2018, how is it doing, the future ?
Who is golf for in 2018 ?
Will it always be orientated towards men ?
Is there anything wrong with that ?
What would you like to see change ?
Are you confident for the future of golf ?

dan_ep82

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Reading a few of the threads here - there tends to be individuals who are incredibly self confident in their ability and opinions - they talk with such confidence and certitude.

Where does golf sit in 2018 ?
Who is golf for in 2018 ?
Are we just selfish self orientated men ?
Is there anything wrong with that ?


Where it always has, below the main sports (GAA, Rugby,Soccer etc)
They only require €10-20 for a ball and your away with free facilities all around the country. Much more involved in golf and the governing bodies make it no easier to get into golf. The GAA gets players from primary school, don't know why it isn't done with golf aswell.



Anyone who is interested and has the funds and time. They're may not be much enticement but there is no barrier for anyone to play golf bar time and money. With adverts,sportsdirect and green fee sites like golfnow the money side is less a problem than it ever was.


I wouldn't think Boards.ie would show the average golfer's mindset, the general golfing public I find alot different. I've met people with strong opinions on the course but in general it's a much more layed back atmosphere.

FixdePitchmark

I said I would change tone of original post - to keep it more balanced for a change

You beat me to it dan.

But would agree with you - not sure the forum here is a good reflection of golf.

Golf at clubs is far more relaxed and fun - than the tone of the forum here.

Niles Crane

I played for a few summers in my teens but don't anymore, however I think sometime in the future I might get back to playing if I have enough time.

I'm a prime example of why the sport could be doing better.I played with a couple of fellas one of whom worked at the golf club for a summer job and yet not once was I apporoached and asked to join the club and become a member.Not once do I remember the golf club coming down the the school in the village and trying to recruit children to play.They seemed to have a build it and they will come attitude.

However I played GAA up until my 20's before I had to quit because I had a long commute for work. However before that I tried to quit playing u-16 football and the trainer was down at my house a couple of days later to convince me to come back and play.The GAA would always send people from the club and county baord into trhe shool to talk about the sport and gtes kids to play it and that ws 20 years ago and I'd say they've got even better at it these days.

Golf doesn't seem to want to actively promote iself whereas other sports do.I also think Golf club can feel like intimidating enough place for youngsters and that some people involved almost see the sport as being like a masonic lodge rather than a sport ot be promoted for everyone to play.

spacecoyote

I think I was in the perfect secondary school to promote it. We had Harrington & McGinley attend the school & they came in with the Trophy when they won the World Cup Of Golf

But I have no recollection of the school trying to build off it or make an attempt to encourage pupils to take it up.

There were a couple of pupils who did play golf, but it was seen as very exclusive & only open to the select few.

GreeBo

Why would the school be doing that though? Unless they have a golf course as part of the school, its really nothing to do with them and there is nothing they can do.

Clubs dont go recruiting from schools because they frankly really dont need loads more kids joining, what they need are full paying adults who have kids.
I know kids turn into full paying adults, but thats no good to clubs who need the money now.

Clubs that dont need the money now have an assembly line of sons, daughters, nieces & nephews, not to mention grandchildren, so why would they go recruiting from the local schools?

Every now and then they wiil approach some young talent, but thats typically to poach them from another club.

That said, we identified that we had a mismatch in girls to boys in our club so a fwe open days were held where local girls schools were invited up and given some lessons etc, it has increased the numbers of female members playing as, more so than boys, they want to play with their friends.

prawnsambo

The reason you get kids to start is that you can often pull the parents in as well. Sometimes that's all it takes to break the ice.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

The reason you get kids to start is that you can often pull the parents in as well. Sometimes that's all it takes to break the ice.

I dont think I've ever seen that to be honest, always the opposite.

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo have you not just said in your post it works.

It would work for clubs that don't have an asembly line as you describe.

What has happened to the gui group - what were they called again.

says everything. Where are they.

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont think I've ever seen that to be honest, always the opposite.

I've seen it happen frequently in other sports. I've seen it happen a couple of times in golf. Me being one of them.

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

GreeBo have you not just said in your post it works.

It would work for clubs that don't have an asembly line as you describe.

What has happened to the gui group - what were they called again.

says everything. Where are they.

Im not sure I would say it worked in our case, our aim was to get the girls who are already members to play more, almost a "make golf cool" type of effort.
We got a pennant in under age girls last year, so something is working there.

Wouldnt most clubs have this assembly line? If parents play, kids often want to play, I dont think the club has to do anything special to foster or encourage this, just dont be mean to the kids (though maybe thats special enough in some places!)

prawnsambo wrote: »

I've seen it happen frequently in other sports. I've seen it happen a couple of times in golf. Me being one of them.

It definitely happens a lot in other sports, I've just never seen it in golf.
Almost anyone I know who plays, plays because their parents or grandparents play.

I dont know anyone who plays because their kid plays!

FixdePitchmark

Here is the group put together.
http://www.cgigolf.org/get-into-golf/how-to-get-into-golf/

73 clubs have signed up to "Get Into Golf. But they are not the clubs in bigger populated areas .
You could ask, are clubs that have a production line and “hello money” going to have an interest in an initiative like this ? I’m in a club like that, I’m asking myself that question. If we love golf , you have to give a little back to bring people into golf. You can do this in many ways as an individual. But has the sport in Ireland genuinely done that ?

I have seen a sizable group of progressive (middle to even older aged members) – realise that the nepotistic model has had its day. Golf needs to widen the appeal of “Father and Son” – that name is not even used anymore in our club. There will have to be a more family and lifestyle orientated model.

Clubs will also have to be child friendly – even if there is not a financial need, society has changed. It is not realistic of a young man to say – I’m heading off to the golf club love. You stay here look after kids and catch you later.

This may all seem a bit PC gone mad, but golf is changing – slowly but it is changing direction.

I think the real problem golf has is – it has been so nepotistic and self-interested for so long. It will and we will struggle to be truly open.
If you look at what GAA and Rugby have done. They try everything with anyone to promote their games. Kids are involved from all different backgrounds.

There is an obvious complication with golf. How do you promote golf , when it requires such a complex facility – can you do it in schools ? – can you do it at ranges ? – the course are too hard and complex.

I totally understand that it is a far more complex problem. But – behind it all, has golf got that genuine altruism in it. I don’t think it does. It is still a very selfish sport (IMO).

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

You could ask, are clubs that have a production line and “hello money” going to have an interest in an initiative like this ? I’m in a club like that, I’m asking myself that question. If we love golf , you have to give a little back to bring people into golf. You can do this in many ways as an individual. But has the sport in Ireland genuinely done that ?

I have seen a sizable group of progressive (middle to even older aged members) – realise that the nepotistic model has had its day. Golf needs to widen the appeal of “Father and Son” – that name is not even used anymore in our club. There will have to be a more family and lifestyle orientated model.

Why are you discounting clubs that encourage young people via the parent/grandparent model?

Does it really matter who the kids are?

I dont think its that those clubs dont have an interest, they dont need to. Not because of money but because they already have enough kids that they can handle.

Its unrealistic to think that clubs are just going to open the doors to random kids that have no adult to bring and watch them. From a purely H&S point of view, you cant have young kids roaming the course unsupervised.


Why does encouraging your children to play not count as count as bringing people into golf?
Tbh it seems like you have some agenda to knock members clubs.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Clubs will also have to be child friendly – even if there is not a financial need, society has changed. It is not realistic of a young man to say – I’m heading off to the golf club love. You stay here look after kids and catch you later.

This may all seem a bit PC gone mad, but golf is changing – slowly but it is changing direction.

But what does that have to do with encouraging unrelated children from nearby schools to play?

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I think the real problem golf has is – it has been so nepotistic and self-interested for so long. It will and we will struggle to be truly open.
If you look at what GAA and Rugby have done. They try everything with anyone to promote their games. Kids are involved from all different backgrounds.

There is an obvious complication with golf. How do you promote golf , when it requires such a complex facility – can you do it in schools ? – can you do it at ranges ? – the course are too hard and complex.

I totally understand that it is a far more complex problem. But – behind it all, has golf got that genuine altruism in it. I don’t think it does. It is still a very selfish sport (IMO).

Again, why does it have to be "open"? When that clearly, in your own words, doesnt suit the game of oglf.
There are endless pitch & putt courses around the country that kids did and do play on all summer long. Not all kids are into golf just like not all of them are into archery or skiing, and for the same reasons. There is a barrier to entry with some sports and thats just a fact of life.

As for it lacking altruism and being a selfish sport, what is it exactly you are looking for or expecting from members clubs? I just see you knocking clubs and comparing them to incomparable sports without giving any ideas of what you actually, realistically expect a club to do.

The model of golf is and has always been that most people get into it from their parents or through their parents friends. Its a different model than many other sports but that doesnt make it selfish or wrong, its merely the best way for clubs to handle organic growth in a sport such as golf.

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo - It is not just me that thinks golf needs to change.

It is basically every golf professional body in Ireland and across the world. Even the R&A.

You may think what golf is doing works. But participation is collapsing.

I probably agree with you that clubs won't do much. Some will. But again , golf clubs are not that intersted in growth outside of their own small network and self interest.

I think clubs could do way more and some are.

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

GreeBo - It is not just me that thinks golf needs to change.

It is basically every golf professional body in Ireland and across the world. Even the R&A.

You may think what golf is doing works. But participation is collapsing.

I probably agree with you that clubs won't do much. Some will. But again , golf clubs are not that intersted in growth outside of their own small network and self interest.

I think clubs could do way more and some are.

I don't believe that *all* golf needs to change, there are many clubs who are still full and have a healthy youth membership membership.

Participation is no collapsing in all clubs, its collapsing in clubs that setup in locations and environments that were not sustainable without huge corporate memberships dropping thousands of euros a year without even playing. A corporate, for profit club isnt going to do squat to grow the game or encourage a bunch of kids to play, thats just eating into their already diminishing profits and tee times.

Clubs that are successful dont need or want to grow outside of their network!
This network has been around for over 100 years in many cases and is the very fabric of the club. These clubs like the family aspect and the fact that everyone knows everyone else, that their kids play golf together just as they did with their own parents. Why on earth would they want to change this model to something else? Something that their membership doesnt want and the club doesnt need and frankly cannot support. These clubs dont want 100 new bodies that no one else knows joining, it would break the very ethos of the club.

There is a reason these clubs require new members to be proposed and seconded by existing members. Its because they (the members) want the club to continue with likeminded people and not dilute what they have spent generations building.

There is nothing wrong about that approach and it indeed grows the game, its what got us this far.

FixdePitchmark

Golf participation is down - ?

The R&A are an ancient masonic lodge type institution and you are even behind them GreeBo

https://www.bbc.com/sport/golf/44291362

The type of club you are talking about "proposed and seconded" - is a very small part of the Irish golf scene - is it 30 clubs ? 10 %.

I just think that is a head in the bunker approach to what the game needs.

Yes it is useful for the like minded individual and useful for their network. But it really is useless in what we are talking about at a macro level to grow the game at a serious level making every club sustainable and growing real participation .

I think more can be done and all professional bodies are trying to do something and progressive clubs are trying to do stuff.

The model you are taking about - also creates a real image problem for golf as closed shop - snobby - up market. Whilst this is useful for some , it is damaging for golf in a wider context.

If rugby can change golf can change.

The R & A want to change.

The GUI want to change.

you don't


I'll put my hands up as a golfer. Golf is selfish.

Russman

Interesting thread Fix, and it’s a myriad of a dozen or more issues imho. I was only having this conversation yesterday with my father.

I think golf’s inherent problem is that it’s an expensive sport, not so much from the point of view of getting a set of clubs etc., but actually maintaining a course/club to a standard that people want. Perhaps in the past a club could get away with maybe the greens being a little bumpy for a while, or the fairways a little rough, but nowadays people want pristine (not that that’s a bad thing) and they want it now. If they don’t get it, they vote with their feet. With the demise of joining fees in the last decade, loyalty is gone.

I think there’s a relatively new generation of golfers, perhaps lads who took it up when football finished, they got brought on a few corporate outings to places like Mount Juliet, K Club etc., and they want to play that type of course all the time. They’ve no real interest in competitions, handicaps, inter-club etc., they just want a 4 ball with their buddies every Saturday, so they either go the Slevenamon route and play opens on good courses, or go for whatever club is offering the best deal each year and have a new club each season, or they pay green fees once a week from May to October. That’s been massively detrimental to existing members’ clubs imo, not saying they’re right or wrong, it’s a free world and all that. But golf needs to find a way to get people to buy into the “club” thing. If everyone divided their sub by the number of rounds they play, it’d probably make no sense for anyone to be in a club and we’d all pay green fees.

Time is also a factor these days. People just can’t write off the full day on a Saturday anymore to a game of golf and only 20/30 people can play early on a time sheet. How this is solved, I’ve no idea. I know the 9 hole thing is being pushed, but getting die heads to buy into that is a big ask - “......ah that’s not real f—king golf....”
With cycling essentially being the new golf, numbers are dropping and there are simply too many clubs in Ireland.

Personally I think clubs will need to identify their target market much more clearly - are they trying to be the €600 a year “get them in, get them out” operation, or do they want to be the €1,500 a year setup - but they need to offer a product that’s correspondingly improved on the former. Or they go for the €5k+ joining fee, €2k sub, higher end of the market. No club can be all options unfortunately.
As someone mentioned earlier, people are selfish, so are clubs. An existing well established club doesn’t give a flying f—k about getting new kids in if they’ve already got a “production line” coming from existing members. Kids with no family already in golf find it very hard to get a club that’s accessible to them. The desired clubs are generally near the population centres but, say in dublin, often a junior (who’s father doesn’t play) can only get into somewhere well outside the M50, which is often impractical. It remains a difficult sport to break into.

Ollieboy

I’m not sure if your referring to golf in general or Ireland but I’m going to guess Ireland.

All the problems in Ireland relate to over supply, and some people confuse that issue with trying to get more people into golf. A lot of the problems we see here would be easily solved with less courses. If we loss 15% of the course we would have a very stable market. The industry average for subs should be 30 to 50 times the standard green fee but that’s tough in the current climate because green fees are to low.

I don’t know myself if member club or business clubs are best model for customers, there is arguments for both.

Golf attracts a certain person and some people will play it all their life and some for only a few years. The number of people playing golf with always be fairly static, yes we had a boom but it returned to average figures very quickly.

Running golf courses is expensive business and people usually only think yearly instead of 20 years. A lot of clubs currently offer cheap golf but that is not a long term option and they are hoping for another golf boom which I wouldn’t predict.

Finally, people go on about the market and attracting new market types to the game. My own committee have spoken about this for 6 months about wanting to attract families. I said nothing until it game to making a decision and I asked how many people would continue to be members if the place was full of families with all the other issues that creates....conversation was over. Yes in the US and other countries where golf is played in resorts it is more family oriented, but we don’t have that life style.

Finally, the biggest problem in Ireland in relation to golf is a defunct GUI.

Mantis Toboggan

Ollieboy wrote: »

I’m not sure if your referring to golf in general or Ireland but I’m going to guess Ireland.

All the problems in Ireland relate to over supply, and some people confuse that issue with trying to get more people into golf. A lot of the problems we see here would be easily solved with less courses. If we loss 15% of the course we would have a very stable market. The industry average for subs should be 30 to 50 times the standard green fee but that’s tough in the current climate because green fees are to low.

I don’t know myself if member club or business clubs are best model for customers, there is arguments for both.

Golf attracts a certain person and some people will play it all their life and some for only a few years. The number of people playing golf with always be fairly static, yes we had a boom but it returned to average figures very quickly.

Running golf courses is expensive business and people usually only think yearly instead of 20 years. A lot of clubs currently offer cheap golf but that is not a long term option and they are hoping for another golf boom which I wouldn’t predict.

Finally, people go on about the market and attracting new market types to the game. My own committee have spoken about this for 6 months about wanting to attract families. I said nothing until it game to making a decision and I asked how many people would continue to be members if the place was full of families with all the other issues that creates....conversation was over. Yes in the US and other countries where golf is played in resorts it is more family oriented, but we don’t have that life style.

Finally, the biggest problem in Ireland in relation to golf is a defunct GUI.

Surely this strategy will do nothing to grow the game of golf in this country? In fact I'd say it would have the opposite effect. Restrict access and opportunity and increase barriers to entry thereby reducing participation levels across the country.

GreeBo

Ollieboy wrote: »

I don’t know myself if member club or business clubs are best model for customers, there is arguments for both.

I think models are possible and complimentary, they cater for the two, broadly speaking, types of golfer.
The nomad who moves around wherever the deal is, often in a group of 4+ friends.
The clubman who wants to join a club and all that that entails.
There are various levels of clubman, from the couple of hundred a year to the couple of thousand a year.

Nothing wrong with any of the above categories, each suits the people involved.

The problem as I see it, is that due to the boom, the nomadic golfers (and in fact all golfers!) are expecting the facilities that the 2K a year guy pays for irrespective of what they are paying. That was fine when the boom clubs were keeping their high standards while dropping their prices, but now the standards are dropping inline with the falling budgets and the lads are getting antsy.

Ollieboy wrote: »

Golf attracts a certain person and some people will play it all their life and some for only a few years. The number of people playing golf with always be fairly static, yes we had a boom but it returned to average figures very quickly.
Finally, people go on about the market and attracting new market types to the game. My own committee have spoken about this for 6 months about wanting to attract families. I said nothing until it game to making a decision and I asked how many people would continue to be members if the place was full of families with all the other issues that creates....conversation was over. Yes in the US and other countries where golf is played in resorts it is more family oriented, but we don’t have that life style.

I think golf attracts more than one type of person, but the majority of golfers need to be some sort of club golfer, if the game is to survive.

It's a terrible analogy so forgive me, but lads playing 5 a side on astro pitches in Tallaght aren't really helping the FAI grow the game of soccer. I think the nomadic golfer is a bit like this, not really growing the game, until and unless they actually join a club for the long haul.

I'd much rather we had more entry level clubs that would help to grow the game, but nomadic golfers wont stand for playing on mucky, hairy greens up the Dublin mountains when they could drop €30 and play in Castleknock instead.

Russman

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Surely this strategy will do nothing to grow the game of golf in this country? In fact I'd say it would have the opposite effect. Restrict access and opportunity and increase barriers to entry thereby reducing participation levels across the country.

That’s a very fair point but presenting and maintaining a golf course takes a minimum amount of money and the subs will reflect this. Rightly or wrongly I can’t see clubs offering below cost gold to the masses whilst still charging their existing member an arm and a leg. Plus I think even if, I dunno, say, 20 clubs were to close down, someone could still find golf at a price point they could afford.

GreeBo wrote: »

The problem as I see it, is that due to the boom, the nomadic golfers (and in fact all golfers!) are expecting the facilities that the 2K a year guy pays for irrespective of what they are paying. That was fine when the boom clubs were keeping their high standards while dropping their prices, but now the standards are dropping inline with the falling budgets and the lads are getting antsy.

I'd much rather we had more entry level clubs that would help to grow the game, but nomadic golfers wont stand for playing on mucky, hairy greens up the Dublin mountains when they could drop €30 and play in Castleknock instead.

This is a big issue imho, or even two issues.

The keeping open of the NAMA clubs 7/8 years ago was a killer for small member clubs, how could a smallish club in the Dublin Mountains or the midlands or wherever, compete with a “resort” development being subsidised and offering top class golf for €15 a round when the members place is charging €35 ? It became a no brainer for guys who weren’t interested in the “club” side of things - play a big modern course once a week from May to October and put the clubs away for the winter and you’re still ahead financially compared to joining even a small member owned place.

I think, down the line, we may see clubs merging. If you’ve three courses each with 250 members, near each other, and not viable, I’d say eventually pride will be swallowed and there may be amalgamations, however unpalatable that would be - “I’m not joining that shower of cnuts, I’d rather put the clubs on eBay.....”

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

I think, down the line, we may see clubs merging. If you’ve three courses each with 250 members, near each other, and not viable, I’d say eventually pride will be swallowed and there may be amalgamations, however unpalatable that would be - “I’m not joining that shower of cnuts, I’d rather put the clubs on eBay.....”

Amalgamations are a possible solution alright, but I guess they wont and will try to wait each other out, until only 1 is left!

I think the GUI need to make some changes to promote the club side of things more, even if that means restricting the non members ability to do things.

I think distance membership has a lot to answer for here, you shouldn't be able to maintain an active handicap unless you actually play X times in your own course.
If you are not able to play in your home course but want to maintain your membership, then the cost for that is that you don't get to play opens in the rest of the world.

This would mean if you just want to play casual golf you are free to do that in a society or just with your mates etc, but if you want to play competition golf, you need to support and join a club that you actually play in.

FixdePitchmark

Russman - you have this impressive ability to express in writing what is in my head.

charlieIRL

GreeBo wrote: »

Amalgamations are a possible solution alright, but I guess they wont and will try to wait each other out, until only 1 is left!

I think the GUI need to make some changes to promote the club side of things more, even if that means restricting the non members ability to do things.

I think distance membership has a lot to answer for here, you shouldn't be able to maintain an active handicap unless you actually play X times in your own course.
If you are not able to play in your home course but want to maintain your membership, then the cost for that is that you don't get to play opens in the rest of the world.

This would mean if you just want to play casual golf you are free to do that in a society or just with your mates etc, but if you want to play competition golf, you need to support and join a club that you actually play in.

I think you now have to play a certain amount of times in your "home" club for your handicap to be competitive for the following season, is it 4?

One thing that I think doesn't help the club is the clubhouse closing early, 4 of us often head out at 4 on a Monday and would be hungry when i finish at 7:30 but the clubhouse would be closed apart from the bar. I know its not fair to have staff there all day but on a weekday what's to stop them coming in at 4 or 5 and staying until 9 or that? Even light bar food would do and entice you into the clubhouse even for an hour or two.

mike12

We have been talking of clubs closing now since 2008, how many have actually closed?
Think at this stage most have survived thru the worst of it either by cutting costs or getting more members thru reducing fees.

I really think that the market has stabilised.

GreeBo

charlieIRL wrote: »

I think you now have to play a certain amount of times in your "home" club for your handicap to be competitive for the following season, is it 4?

They dont have to be in your home club, any qualifying scores count towards this.
You might not be able to win anything in your home club unless you have X cards in, but for the people we are talking about I dont think that really matters!

charlieIRL wrote: »

One thing that I think doesn't help the club is the clubhouse closing early, 4 of us often head out at 4 on a Monday and would be hungry when i finish at 7:30 but the clubhouse would be closed apart from the bar. I know its not fair to have staff there all day but on a weekday what's to stop them coming in at 4 or 5 and staying until 9 or that? Even light bar food would do and entice you into the clubhouse even for an hour or two.

Its a tough call, its expensive to have the catering guys in on the off chance that 4 lads drop in and order a bowl of chips. Standards will drop as they try to offset that cost and that leads to it being less likely you will actually go in...vicious circle.

Anytime we have any sort of comp on the restaurant will be open late, even if its just the bar menu, thats when the caterers & the bar actually make their profit tbh.

If the club had a restaurant where non golfers went then it would be a different story, a-la Castleknock, but thats pretty rare and some clubs wouldnt want outsiders, despite wanting their money.

charlieIRL

GreeBo wrote: »

They dont have to be in your home club, any qualifying scores count towards this.
You might not be able to win anything in your home club unless you have X cards in, but for the people we are talking about I dont think that really matters!

Ok, I thought i read that they had to be in your home club. I'll see can i find the article again.

GreeBo wrote: »

Its a tough call, its expensive to have the catering guys in on the off chance that 4 lads drop in and order a bowl of chips. Standards will drop as they try to offset that cost and that leads to it being less likely you will actually go in...vicious circle.

Anytime we have any sort of comp on the restaurant will be open late, even if its just the bar menu, thats when the caterers & the bar actually make their profit tbh.

Agreed its a tough call but surely it wouldn't be too hard to have staff in the restaurant from say, 4 o'clock to 9 o'clock on your open day as well as weekends? It's only one day and a few hours.

GreeBo

charlieIRL wrote: »

Ok, I thought i read that they had to be in your home club. I'll see can i find the article again.




Agreed its a tough call but surely it wouldn't be too hard to have staff in the restaurant from say, 4 o'clock to 9 o'clock on your open day as well as weekends? It's only one day and a few hours.

Sorry, they do keep it open late on the open days, but its because they have a planned/definite group of people every week (Wednesday)
Same on a Tuesday for the ladies and Saturday for the main comp.
If there is a society it will also be open, but at 7pm on a Sunday, if there is nothing else on then its Peanuts at the bar.

prawnsambo

charlieIRL wrote: »

Ok, I thought i read that they had to be in your home club. I'll see can i find the article again.

Might this be what you're looking for?

Eligibility
To be eligible to compete in a Singles Qualifying Competition at an Away Club, except for all events listed in the GUI’s Tournament Conditions Book, a Member of a GUI Affiliated Golf Club must have returned at least three scores in Singles Qualifying Competitions at his Home Club, at any time on or after the corresponding date one year before the Singles Qualifying Competition at the Away Club

Russman

mike12 wrote: »

We have been talking of clubs closing now since 2008, how many have actually closed?
Think at this stage most have survived thru the worst of it either by cutting costs or getting more members thru reducing fees.

I really think that the market has stabilised.

You could be right, but I still think there are a few more to go, unfortunately. I can see a situation where clubs have cut costs to the bone (or beyond) and are now losing members because standards have dropped that little bit too far, or members are now in a position to move and maybe pay a little more for a slightly better product. Loyalty is really all that's keeping plenty of guys in their club, and even that is finite.
I suspect a lot of clubs are right on the knife edge of financial survival and they're all hoping that the club 5 miles down the road goes bang before they do. One large unexpected expense and it could be curtains for them. Anecdotally you hear lots of clubs are "in trouble" - now I don't believe all the rumours are true, but equally they can't all be false either IMO.

londonred

The new drink driving ban will hit a lot of clubs if they are well outside the towns, maybe some will evolve and move the social clubhouse back into the towns which could then provide a source of income for the clubs , plenty of empty pubs for lease in rural Ireland .

A few random thoughts from a social golfer, not a member of a club but I play probably at least 40 times a year at a guess. I also have kids who I would like to take up golf but none of them have.

Clubs are still intimidating. I think most people wouldn't know where to start and wouldn't dream of just rocking up to a club and asking to join. Even for me, golfing for 20 years and having played most courses around Dublin and many around the country the image of the stuffy golf club and all that it entails is off putting (even if it's not true, it's the image). I suspect plenty of people still imagine you have to be proposed by an existing member and pay some daft amount of money.

I don't really know how much can be done about that, but surely changing that perception is what getting kids involved should be about. On that note - how DO kids get out on a golf course if mum or dad isn't a member? It feels to me that there's nothing between 18 holes of full golf and pitch and putt out there. The latter is fine but it's not really golf. I know it isn't easy but I'd love to see more flexibility in that area. I'd love courses to be designed with shorter loops and to make it possible to let under 18s play 6 holes in the evenings (or whenever is quiet) for next to nothing, and make sure people know about it. Even a three hole par 3 course that is open to them all the time. Instead most clubs don't even have junior tees out so if a father and son want a game it's either 6,000 yards or the stigma of playing off the ladies (which should just be called red tees imho).

The club as a social club also might put people off. I want to play with my friends, not some randomer who puts his name down next to me on a timesheet. I know people will say that is not the spirit of the game but bottom line if I am giving up five hours of the day I want to know I am not going to have to spend it with somebody I don't like. Of course for others meeting new people is part of it but not for everybody. Rightly or wrongly some will think you give yourself over to a golf club entirely rather than just play golf.

Also pace of play but that is done to death already!

billy3sheets

Russman wrote: »

As someone mentioned earlier, people are selfish, so are clubs. An existing well established club doesn’t give a flying f—k about getting new kids in if they’ve already got a “production line” coming from existing members. Kids with no family already in golf find it very hard to get a club that’s accessible to them. The desired clubs are generally near the population centres but, say in dublin, often a junior (who’s father doesn’t play) can only get into somewhere well outside the M50, which is often impractical. It remains a difficult sport to break into.

Is this accurate? My 17yo son is a junior member in Clontarf. Although I play golf, I've no connection with Clontarf. His 2 best golf buddies parents don't play golf. From what I can see there, they actively try to get young kids to join, regardless of if their parents are members. They have a cheap probationary juvenile year first to let them see if they like the game without any big commitment. They always seem to be getting freebies and subsidised lessons too.

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

On that note - how DO kids get out on a golf course if mum or dad isn't a member? It feels to me that there's nothing between 18 holes of full golf and pitch and putt out there. The latter is fine but it's not really golf. I know it isn't easy but I'd love to see more flexibility in that area. I'd love courses to be designed with shorter loops and to make it possible to let under 18s play 6 holes in the evenings (or whenever is quiet) for next to nothing, and make sure people know about it. Even a three hole par 3 course that is open to them all the time. Instead most clubs don't even have junior tees out so if a father and son want a game it's either 6,000 yards or the stigma of playing off the ladies (which should just be called red tees imho).

They can play on any public course or just pay a greenfee....
Many clubs have junior tees also.

You cant really dedicate a whole area of the course to kids, its just too expensive.

Russman

billy3sheets wrote: »

Is this accurate? My 17yo son is a junior member in Clontarf. Although I play golf, I've no connection with Clontarf. His 2 best golf buddies parents don't play golf. From what I can see there, they actively try to get young kids to join, regardless of if their parents are members. They have a cheap probationary juvenile year first to let them see if they like the game without any big commitment. They always seem to be getting freebies and subsidised lessons too.

I’m sure some clubs are more open than others (whether through necessity or otherwise) but I think there’s still a very inward looking approach in lots of older established clubs, which they’re perfectly entitled to have, members will have paid many thousands of euro to join, they can pick and choose as they see fit.
FWIW I’m not a member of one of these clubs, far from it.
My point is that clubs don’t really care about the bigger picture or growing the game, they’d prefer a kid might help them win a senior cup rather than feel any sense of “allowing access to golf” to someone imo.

billy3sheets

Russman wrote: »

I’m sure some clubs are more open than others (whether through necessity or otherwise) but I think there’s still a very inward looking approach in lots of older established clubs, which they’re perfectly entitled to have, members will have paid many thousands of euro to join, they can pick and choose as they see fit.
FWIW I’m not a member of one of these clubs, far from it.
My point is that clubs don’t really care about the bigger picture or growing the game, they’d prefer a kid might help them win a senior cup rather than feel any sense of “allowing access to golf” to someone imo.

I'm not sure which "older established " clubs you're referring to Russman. Clontarf would certainly be categorised as one. That's the only one in the Dublin area I've any direct experience of.
It's possible the perception of these clubs is not the reality. Has anyone approached them to find out what their youth policy is?

I do believe lots of clubs, not just the older ones, need to extend their reach to youth though. There are many kids who don't enjoy the team sports on offer at school and are unaware of how they could get into golf.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

I’m sure some clubs are more open than others (whether through necessity or otherwise) but I think there’s still a very inward looking approach in lots of older established clubs, which they’re perfectly entitled to have, members will have paid many thousands of euro to join, they can pick and choose as they see fit.
FWIW I’m not a member of one of these clubs, far from it.
My point is that clubs don’t really care about the bigger picture or growing the game, they’d prefer a kid might help them win a senior cup rather than feel any sense of “allowing access to golf” to someone imo.

They don't have the liberty of can't about the bigger picture though. They are effectively responsible to their shareholders I.e. Members since they own the club. Unless a club has a dearth of young members I really don't see why they would be going out of their way to bring in young strangers that no-one has any connection with?

They want to grow the game in their own club but in a manageable way, no one in growing bigger than your course can support, the days of half your membership paying s connie is grand but not playing are long gone, everyone who pays now plays so the pressure on the course is immense and priority rightly gots to those paying the most.

We would never take on a good golfer over a members relation, we have even extended the reduced fees for nieces and nephews and grandkids rather than just kids of members.

If every club worked that way then the game grows, but it grows in a sustainable manner not the boom bust run we seem to be on.

Russman

billy3sheets wrote: »

I'm not sure which "older established " clubs you're referring to Russman. Clontarf would certainly be categorised as one. That's the only one in the Dublin area I've any direct experience of.
It's possible the perception of these clubs is not the reality. Has anyone approached them to find out what their youth policy is?

I do believe lots of clubs, not just the older ones, need to extend their reach to youth though. There are many kids who don't enjoy the team sports on offer at school and are unaware of how they could get into golf.

A 10 minute google search will throw up a number of clubs that state they are either closed for junior membership, or that junior members must have a parent or guardian as a member. No point in naming clubs here, it’s not the point of the thread. I’m not knocking these clubs either, I have no issue with them restricting membership as they see fit - their club, their rules.

As regards clubs extending their reach, I agree it’s an admirable goal, but if they already have enough juniors, why would they ?

Ollieboy

Their is a issue with insurance in relation to young people, I think under 12’s have to be accompanied. A lot of clubs aren’t on bus routes etc.

billy3sheets

Russman wrote: »

A 10 minute google search will throw up a number of clubs that state they are either closed for junior membership, or that junior members must have a parent or guardian as a member. No point in naming clubs here, it’s not the point of the thread. I’m not knocking these clubs either, I have no issue with them restricting membership as they see fit - their club, their rules.

As regards clubs extending their reach, I agree it’s an admirable goal, but if they already have enough juniors, why would they ?

Ok, I'm sure clubs may close it after they have filled their quota for junior members. Also, they may have restrictions on what times of the year they take in juniors, to align with coaching etc. I've not seen where juniors have to have a parent as a member - may need a member to propose them just like new adult members.

I know some secondary schools have golf teams and compete in inter-schools comps. I really like this idea as it promotes the awareness and accessibility of the game across the school, not just the ones who play. As with many school sports, I'm sure it's driven by teachers who play themselves. If clubs reached out to local schools, offering some coaching and some game time, I'm sure there would be some uptake on it.

billy3sheets

Ollieboy wrote: »

Their is a issue with insurance in relation to young people, I think under 12’s have to be accompanied. A lot of clubs aren’t on bus routes etc.

Hmm. I wouldn't overplay the accessibility thing. Most kids these days get dropped off by parents and don't take a bus anywhere for their sports.

The "must be accompanied by an adult" thing can be a pain ok. Not sure if it's even restricted to u12s. Not many members will fancy doing a round with kids and if you're not a member of their club, you've got to fork out a greeen fee, even for a casual round or just a few holes.

spacecoyote

Deleted User wrote: »

A few random thoughts from a social golfer, not a member of a club but I play probably at least 40 times a year at a guess.

Fair play to you, you're a more active social golfer than a lot of club golfers. I reckon 40 rounds a year would be a pretty good years golf for most members of a club.

Would there not be much more value to you in joining a club?

prawnsambo

Russman wrote: »

A 10 minute google search will throw up a number of clubs that state they are either closed for junior membership, or that junior members must have a parent or guardian as a member. No point in naming clubs here, it’s not the point of the thread. I’m not knocking these clubs either, I have no issue with them restricting membership as they see fit - their club, their rules.

As regards clubs extending their reach, I agree it’s an admirable goal, but if they already have enough juniors, why would they ?

I think there's a lot more to it than clubs simply making a choice. The most recent legislation: The Children First Act, requires risk assessments, liaison officers and children's officers to be appointed by a club amongst a raft of other requirements.

Afaik, even having children accompanied by parents or guardians just won't cut it any more.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think there's a lot more to it than clubs simply making a choice. The most recent legislation: The Children First Act, requires risk assessments, liaison officers and children's officers to be appointed by a club amongst a raft of other requirements.

Afaik, even having children accompanied by parents or guardians just won't cut it any more.

Exactly.
It's just not safe anymore to have young kids miles away from anyone else effectively in a field.

fred funk }{

GreeBo wrote: »

Exactly.
It's just not safe anymore to have young kids miles away from anyone else effectively in a field.

What?

They're not safe from what/whom?

plumber77

fred funk }{ wrote: »

What?

They're not safe from what/whom?

Water for one.

spacecoyote

spacecoyote wrote: »

Fair play to you, you're a more active social golfer than a lot of club golfers. I reckon 40 rounds a year would be a pretty good years golf for most members of a club.

Would there not be much more value to you in joining a club?

Not related to the thread really but just answering your question:

I could definitely save but I like the flexibility of choosing where to play each week and being able to go away for weekends etc which would be included in the 40x a year. I live in Dublin so I am on a different course every week and I like that variety.

There's also a reverse network effect where I have a decent number of people I play with (changes around but a good sized pool) and they aren't members either. If I commit to one club I am either asking those people to play as my guest and give up the single life or having to work into a new clique. It's not a tempting prospect to be honest.

BTW in all my time playing in and around Dublin I've only ever been approached once in the bar afterwards by someone who was obviously sizing me up for membership. Not that I would expect some rabid sales technique but if clubs are looking for members it wouldn't hurt.

londonred

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think there's a lot more to it than clubs simply making a choice. The most recent legislation: The Children First Act, requires risk assessments, liaison officers and children's officers to be appointed by a club amongst a raft of other requirements.

Afaik, even having children accompanied by parents or guardians just won't cut it any more.

I can remember caddying for my dad in the 80s then going out playing when he was having his 8 pints in the bar afterwards.

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

Exactly.
It's just not safe anymore to have young kids miles away from anyone else effectively in a field.

Well it is safe. If you follow the rules. The purpose of the Act is to protect children from harm and to provide a channel for them to report anything untoward. They don't have to use that channel, but it absolutely must be there and the procedures clearly documented and displayed.

You can't just appoint a children's officer and liaison officer and consider your responsibilities discharged. They have to be trained; there are three levels and iirc, at least one of those levels needs to be Garda vetted.

There's a very good page here that describes all the requirements.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well it is safe. If you follow the rules. The purpose of the Act is to protect children from harm and to provide a channel for them to report anything untoward. They don't have to use that channel, but it absolutely must be there and the procedures clearly documented and displayed.

You can't just appoint a children's officer and liaison officer and consider your responsibilities discharged. They have to be trained; there are three levels and iirc, at least one of those levels needs to be Garda vetted.

There's a very good page here that describes all the requirements.

The whole point of having someone for them to report to is because its not always safe.

You wouldn't put a bunch of 10 year olds in a field on their own 2 miles from anyone, giving them golf clubs doesn't make that ok.

There could be anyone wandering onto a golf course and these kids are vulnerable if they are out their on their own for hours.

charlieIRL

I'm a soccer coach for a good few years now and have my safeguarding / child welfare courses done and i can tell you i wouldn't be letting any kids out on a course unsupervised.

Apart from what's mentioned above, what if a child got struck by a ball? or a club by standing too close to someone taking a shot or even practice swing? You can say that this will never happen, but it might. Accidents do happen. Imagine a child got hit in the head at the furthest part of the course?