Failed IBT WTF?

Malolan

Hi everyone,

my brother was doing ibt course with airport driving school - not gonna mention instructor's name (pm if you want to know). He went for cat A but during the course instructor assessed he's not ready for bigger bike than 125cc and extended his course for riding in traffic on extra 270 quids. Now, that instructor didn't sign my brother's certificate after today's session in traffic saying that his road positioning was wrong, road reading, bike control etc.
My question - is the ibt trainer legit to do this when having a complete beginner on his course? Or rather the guy is trying to pull another money from my brother?:mad:

Lumen

How would anyone be able to judge that without seeing your brother ride?

IrishGrimReaper

My first time ever trying to ride a bike was in February of this year on a 125cc just learning around the back roads in Monaghan and I near shat myself, my control was all over the place and my balance terrible.

By the time I went to do the IBT I had at least a few months of use under my belt, there's no way in hell the instructor would've let me use a 600cc as a complete beginner. There's a world of difference in power.

It might not be nice to hear it but the instructor may be doing your brother a favour, he should get a few lessons and practice on the smaller one to build his confidence. If he was to sign the cert letting your brother go on the road unrestricted when he felt he wasn't ready your brother could potentially get himself killed.

I just checked that lesson company and they seem like a large outfit, I can't see them being short of customers, so I doubt it's a money scrounging scheme.

Malolan

Lumen wrote: »

How would anyone be able to judge that without seeing your brother ride?

How bad one has to ride to not get certified on ibt?

aido43

Airport Driving School ? I think that was your first mistake

Del2005

Malolan wrote: »

How bad one has to ride to not get certified on ibt?

As bad as the OPs brother. This is why IBT was brought in, too many people getting on bikes with no idea how to control the bike never mind ride with other road users.

Malolan

Del2005 wrote: »

As bad as the OPs brother. This is why IBT was brought in, too many people getting on bikes with no idea how to control the bike never mind ride with other road users.

What is the purpose of ibt? My point is - the dude was supposed to teach my brother and get him certified, so either he didn't train him properly (or at all) or is seeing an easy money.

Has anyone here failed ibt?

Malolan

aido43 wrote: »

Airport Driving School ? I think that was your first mistake

That's what I'm thinking. Unfortunately...

arybvtcw0eolkf

Malolan wrote: »

What is the purpose of ibt? My point is - the dude was supposed to teach my brother and get him certified, so either he didn't train him properly (or at all) or is seeing an easy money.

Has anyone here failed ibt?

Maybe your brother just can't ride a bike, even after instruction. It happens, and it sounds like this is what happened to your brother.

Might be a blessing in disguise.

TheShow

Is the IBT instructor not just doing his job?
its not just a "pay the money get the cert" thing, its about road safety for your brother and for other road users.

Without actually witnessing how your brother rides, its impossible to form an opinion

No disrespect to your brother, but I'm glad to hear that instructors are failing people on IBTs.

I see your argument above, abut the instructor being paid to teach him how to ride, however, as the old adge goes, you can take a horse to the water but you cant make him drink it.

Del2005

Malolan wrote: »

What is the purpose of ibt? My point is - the dude was supposed to teach my brother and get him certified, so either he didn't train him properly (or at all) or is seeing an easy money.

Has anyone here failed ibt?

It's Initial Basic Training, if you don't meet the standard then the trainer can't sign you off. If you need more training to meet the standard then you pay for it.

I didn't need IBT because I got my licence before it came in and I'd riden off road for years. But even after I passed the test I took extra lessons as I had been off bikes for years and needed some training for road riding.

listermint

There are people that literally can't drive at all ever and there are some who require far more tuition.

There is no such thing as everyone being in the same bucket but it's about getting everyone to minimum standard

It appears your brother does not yet meet that

frozenfrozen

agree with all the above and obviously you can't comment on the guys riding until you see it yourself but IMO the instructor should have made it clear to him sooner that he would have to improve drastically or else he wouldn't be getting his cert signed. That shouldn't have come to him as a shock where it seemed like a money grab..

Malolan

Thanks for your replies folks. He booked a session with another instructor and I'll update here when done.

TheShow

frozenfrozen wrote: »

agree with all the above and obviously you can't comment on the guys riding until you see it yourself but IMO the instructor should have made it clear to him sooner that he would have to improve drastically or else he wouldn't be getting his cert signed. That shouldn't have come to him as a shock where it seemed like a money grab..

Good point, but would the fact that he got bumped down to 125 not give you a hint that this may be the case?

Malolan

TheShow wrote: »

Good point, but would the fact that he got bumped down to 125 not give you a hint that this may be the case?

Just to clarify - he never got a chance to mount a 600, was doing well on 125 and 250, instructor never put him on 600. As I said, I will post here after the session with another instructor and his assessment. Thanks

frozenfrozen

TheShow wrote: »

Good point, but would the fact that he got bumped down to 125 not give you a hint that this may be the case?

Hard to know really. Someone doing the IBT at the same time as me had to be moved down from the A bike to the A2 bike for a while, but he was left off to his own devices doing figure of 8s etc and got over whatever issue it was and was back up on the A bike then, no issue.

I have heard more than once of IBT instructors trying to force 'A' eligible people onto the A2 license. That's money grabbing fuckery that'll dissuade lads from riding bikes.

MSVforever

aido43 wrote: »

Airport Driving School ? I think that was your first mistake

Before I was doing my IBT I was researching instructors. I heard similar stories from this crowd and was advised to steer clear of them.

I can highly recommend my IBT instructor. Top fellow. Very calm and tons of patience.... His name is Tony from Irish Motorcycletraining in Ballymount.

I did the 16 hours weekend course. Started on a GS500 and advanced to a Bandit 600 after 2 hours (the GS felt like a monkey bike).

First day driving on the compound only. On the second day we were practicing for another hour and then hit the road in Ballymount. We ended up in town and then driving up the N4 via Lucan. Back to Ballymount via Clondalkin / Tallaght.

Great experience with this crowd!

Malolan

MSVforever wrote: »

Before I was doing my IBT I was researching instructors. I heard similar stories from this crowd and was advised to steer clear of them.

I can highly recommend my IBT instructor. Top fellow. Very calm and tons of patience.... His name is Tony from Irish Motorcycletraining in Ballymount.

I did the 16 hours weekend course. Started on a GS500 and advanced to a Bandit 600 after 2 hours (the GS felt like a monkey bike).

First day driving on the compound only. On the second day we were practicing for another hour and then hit the road in Ballymount. We ended up in town and then driving up the N4 via Lucan. Back to Ballymount via Clondalkin / Tallaght.

Great experience with this crowd!

Did my ibt with Ermin from falcon driving academy and had similar experience as you. My brother unfortunately decided to do his with ads...

zubair

Get your brother to contact Mick Finlay IBT instructor and boardie, lookbehindyou. He will get your brother through the ibt and will dedicate all the time he can to help him pass, he won't BS him either if he's not ready for the A.

conor2469

zubair wrote: »

Get your brother to contact Mick Finlay IBT instructor and boardie, lookbehindyou. He will get your brother through the ibt and will dedicate all the time he can to help him pass, he won't BS him either if he's not ready for the A.

I did my IBT with Mick Finlay, great instructor and dead sound guy. He has a real no nonsense approach to teaching and I found it worked really well, picked up the skills very quickly.

spray____

conor2469 wrote: »

I did my IBT with Mick Finlay, great instructor and dead sound guy. He has a real no nonsense approach to teaching and I found it worked really well, picked up the skills very quickly.

I've experience with him as well. He'll cater the program a bit to match the students needs if you know what I mean.

I've also had some experience with Dave Lyons at bikesafe.ie, and would highly recommend.

D3V!L

conor2469 wrote: »

I did my IBT with Mick Finlay, great instructor and dead sound guy. He has a real no nonsense approach to teaching and I found it worked really well, picked up the skills very quickly.

My wife did a pretest with Mick as well. She failed the first driving test due to nerves but after doing the pretest with Mick she passed the next time. Totally recommend him

Lumen

MSVforever wrote: »

I can highly recommend my IBT instructor. Top fellow. Very calm and tons of patience.... His name is Tony from Irish Motorcycletraining in Ballymount

I used him too, and passed first time without any pre-test messing. And I'm crap at everything. So that's some recommendation.

Faith+1

Reminds me of when I took motorcycle lessons a few years back. I won't say names but the instructor was useless, completely knocked my confidence especially when he told me to give up and stick to my car.

Took lessons with another instructor who built up my confidence to the point of passing my test first time.

Personally as another poster said, stay away from Airport. They are a money grabbing shower.

Gavin

Just to disagree with the masses.

I did my A2 IBT with Dave Lyons, and pre-test training with Arron Rider training, and my progression module to A with Airport Driving School (Mark). All of them were perfectly good instructors. No problems at all with ADS.

frozenfrozen

What age were you when you did the A2? If you're one of the >24 age people who did the A2 progression then that would explain why they were good with you...

khaldrogo

That driving school is well known for this kinda stuff

erica74

Another vote for Mick, lovely chap and great instructor.

zubair

Gavin wrote: »

Just to disagree with the masses.

I did my A2 IBT with Dave Lyons, and pre-test training with Arron Rider training, and my progression module to A with Airport Driving School (Mark). All of them were perfectly good instructors. No problems at all with ADS.

Gavin wrote: »

I did my IBT recently. It was my first time on a bike, I'm 33, and have an A category learner permit. After the two days, the IBT instructor graded me for an A2 bike. He explained that it's rare for beginners to be given a full power grade after the IBT.

I'm not particularly concerned, I won't be getting a full power bike anyway, and am happy to learn on the A2 bike, so it's not a problem, however from reading on the forum, I don't see any others who seem to have been in the same scenario. Is it common that with an A permit, the IBT instructor will only give out an A2 category grade?

Short term memory fella.

blade1

zubair wrote: »

Short term memory fella.

Gavin

zubair wrote: »

Short term memory fella.

I don't see the issue? I didn't have a problem with Dave's competency in instruction, but I wasn't terribly happy with being given an A2.

I didn't particularly want to give him more money, so went to Aaron Rider training for the pre-test, and then the airport school were the only ones available for a progression module at the time I needed.

None of this is relevant to the point I was making though, that I was happy with the airport driving school, the instructor was perfectly good to deal with and a nice guy.

zubair

Apologies for putting you on the spot.

dbas

spray____ wrote: »

I've experience with him as well. He'll cater the program a bit to match the students needs if you know what I mean.

I've also had some experience with Dave Lyons at bikesafe.ie, and would highly recommend.

Did IBT with Mick in October. Bought a fazer 600 in March and pre test lesson the morning of my test in May with Dave Lyons and passed.
These lads are spot on and know their stuff

Faith+1

dbas wrote: »

Did IBT with Mick in October. Bought a fazer 600 in March and pre test lesson the morning of my test in May with Dave Lyons and passed.
These lads are spot on and know their stuff

Dave Lyons is the man. Does he still like his rollies? :pac:

dbas

Faith+1 wrote: »

Dave Lyons is the man. Does he still like his rollies? :pac:

He did a bit of biking between rollies to be fair

Malolan

Update on the topic: brother did the ibt on a bandit 600 with another instructor from different school and got his certificate.
I do not recommend the airport driving school.

Malolan

Malolan wrote: »

Update on the topic: brother did the ibt on a bandit 600 with another instructor from different school and got his certificate.
I do not recommend the airport driving school.

That's all good. As long as your brother is safe that's the main thing. I've the IBT with Airport driving school in two weeks time. They come highly recommended from one of the main dealers in my area. Of course I'd expect that they won't verify me if I'm not good enough. I've never ridden a motorbike before but I'm doing a two day course going from A1 up to A. Obviously I know jack **** but I'd imagine it's a steep learning curve to go from zero to certified on A in just two days even though I've been driving on country, town, city and motorway roads in a car for twelve years now. I'm wondering how long it will take me to get used to hand clutch and foot shift and hand brake. The concept seems totally foreign to me prior to trying it. I'm surprised that people actually get certified in two days in most cases given you could potentially be in control of a 1200cc beast after two days which is probably about as forgiving as a nazi firing squad. If they certify someone who is just not up to standard yet then they're doing them no favours. That person is at serious risk of an accident. You might be able to drive fine but if you're not checking your mirrors or indicating properly or you're forgetting to give a life saver look at crucial moments then you're in serious danger and you don't even realise it.

frozenfrozen

Enjoy your ibt and don't worry... The coordination will come to you fast

bladespin

Deleted User wrote:

I'm surprised that people actually get certified in two days in most cases given you could potentially be in control of a 1200cc beast after two days which is probably about as forgiving as a nazi firing squad.

Jaysus, wth kinda bike you gettin?

IMO IBT is a great thing but it's ridiculously expensive here, fair enough professional instructors, make a living etc etc BUT there should be some form if guarantee they will get you up to a basic level without looking for further payment, that or just cut the crap and say you're just not cut out for bikes and leave it there.

Malolan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's all good. As long as your brother is safe that's the main thing. I've the IBT with Airport driving school in two weeks time. They come highly recommended from one of the main dealers in my area. Of course I'd expect that they won't verify me if I'm not good enough. I've never ridden a motorbike before but I'm doing a two day course going from A1 up to A. Obviously I know jack **** but I'd imagine it's a steep learning curve to go from zero to certified on A in just two days even though I've been driving on country, town, city and motorway roads in a car for twelve years now. I'm wondering how long it will take me to get used to hand clutch and foot shift and hand brake. The concept seems totally foreign to me prior to trying it. I'm surprised that people actually get certified in two days in most cases given you could potentially be in control of a 1200cc beast after two days which is probably about as forgiving as a nazi firing squad. If they certify someone who is just not up to standard yet then they're doing them no favours. That person is at serious risk of an accident. You might be able to drive fine but if you're not checking your mirrors or indicating properly or you're forgetting to give a life saver look at crucial moments then you're in serious danger and you don't even realise it.

There's many good schools/instructors around. I've done my ibt with falcon driving academy and this was my first time on 600 bike in the traffic. Ermin was a very relaxed and patient instructor and I really enjoyed my course. Currently I'm riding a 600 hornet which I bought a month after I've done the ibt.
I have a really strong feeling that ads tried and did screw my brother on money, as he found another instructor who really cared to teach him as much as possible within those few hours and assessed him as capable of riding a 600 bandit.
What bike my brother is gonna buy and ride that's his decision.

Malolan

bladespin wrote: »

Jaysus, wth kinda bike you gettin?

IMO IBT is a great thing but it's ridiculously expensive here, fair enough professional instructors, make a living etc etc BUT there should be some form if guarantee they will get you up to a basic level without looking for further payment, that or just cut the crap and say you're just not cut out for bikes and leave it there.

That's what I'm thinking. The ads instructor my brother had simply didn't do much effort to bring a newbie to the level of riding an A cat bike. Instead tried to get him book privates for the extra money on top of what he already payed for his ibt.

Jackdaw89

Funny enough during my IBT I was stone useless on some keyway 125 yoke but when I hopped on an MT07 I was doing figure 8’s no bother.
The lad I done my ibt with needed an extra half day training to safety ride a bike, iv meet him since and he told me that the 3rd day was where he came round and felt good on the bike. Sometimes that extra few hours can pull everything together for you and some fellas egos can’t handle being told your not up to standard yet.
I don’t know the trainer but maybe he genuinely had concerns about your brothers safety, it’s allot of responsibility signing off on a new rider.

bladespin

bladespin wrote: »

Jaysus, wth kinda bike you gettin?

IMO IBT is a great thing but it's ridiculously expensive here, fair enough professional instructors, make a living etc etc BUT there should be some form if guarantee they will get you up to a basic level without looking for further payment, that or just cut the crap and say you're just not cut out for bikes and leave it there.

Ha ha. Nothing too wild to be honest. Getting a 250 Yamaha that's as old as myself. Once I get a bit of experience and know more about bikes then I'll go for something new or close to new that's more powerful. No idea really yet.

Del2005

bladespin wrote: »

Jaysus, wth kinda bike you gettin?

IMO IBT is a great thing but it's ridiculously expensive here, fair enough professional instructors, make a living etc etc BUT there should be some form if guarantee they will get you up to a basic level without looking for further payment, that or just cut the crap and say you're just not cut out for bikes and leave it there.

It's initial and basic training, if you can't make the level after the training why should the instructor work for free if the student isn't good enough to reach the criteria? I don't see teachers working for free to bring students who failed their leaving cert up to a pass level.

bladespin

Del2005 wrote:

It's initial and basic training, if you can't make the level after the training why should the instructor work for free if the student isn't good enough to reach the criteria? I don't see teachers working for free to bring students who failed their leaving cert up to a pass level.

Emmm, yes, you do, the student can repeat the leaving foc. Not really what I said though, if they're not capable then just break the news and move on rather than feathering the nest.
They're offering a product, the assumption is that they will get you up to a reasonable level, if that's not possible then the training offered is substandard or the student isn't capable.

Malolan

listermint wrote: »

There are people that literally can't drive at all ever and there are some who require far more tuition.

There is no such thing as everyone being in the same bucket but it's about getting everyone to minimum standard

It appears your brother does not yet meet that

Thanks for your input, my brother finished the ibt with another school and on a 600cc bike.

Del2005

bladespin wrote: »

Emmm, yes, you do, the student can repeat the leaving foc. Not really what I said though, if they're not capable then just break the news and move on rather than feathering the nest.
They're offering a product, the assumption is that they will get you up to a reasonable level, if that's not possible then the training offered is substandard or the student isn't capable.

It's not free it's double the price to repeat. Even if it's FoC for the student the teacher is still getting paid by the taxpayers to teach the repeat.

https://www.examinations.ie/?l=en&mc=ex&sc=ef


What feathering of the nest did the ADI do in the OP? The person failed the IBT and was told that they needed more lessons, they got more lessons from a different instructor and passed so the original instructor was correct.

Cian_ok

bladespin wrote: »

They're offering a product, the assumption is that they will get you up to a reasonable level, if that's not possible then the training offered is substandard or the student isn't capable.

I know that I struggled on day 1 of my IBT and I spent the first hour on the Sunday going round and round a block. 4 corners, stopping and starting. And then it just 'clicked' with me.

So it is possible that is neither instructor nor "incapable student".

bladespin

Del2005 wrote:

It's not free it's double the price to repeat. Even if it's FoC for the student the teacher is still getting paid by the taxpayers to teach the repeat.

Teacher gets paid the same not double.

If the job is to bring someone up to standard then that's the job, the number of lessons required may be more for some and less for others, just charge by the lesson and it's grand but supplying a course thats designed to deliver and then failing to do so without further purchase is just crap service.

BKtje

Deleted User wrote: »

Obviously I know jack **** but I'd imagine it's a steep learning curve to go from zero to certified on A in just two days even though I've been driving on country, town, city and motorway roads in a car for twelve years now. I'm wondering how long it will take me to get used to hand clutch and foot shift and hand brake.

While I've never done the IBT (learnt to drive in Switzerland where the system is similar though not the same) I didn't have too much trouble in getting the basics of the bike down. I got the bike delivered (Ninja 300) to the large carpark of where I used to live and then spent 2 hours learning the ropes by myself. Only dodgy moment was right at the start when I wanted to get moving for the first time and a car drove past at this exact moment causing me to panic and stall the engine.

After those two hours I drove on the road during quiet hours until I felt confident enough to ride in heavier traffic. I am in no way saying that I was a good driver at this point but I had the mechanical basics of the bike down. A month or two later I did the "IBT*" in Switzerland after which I felt much more confident and a month later I'd past my test and had my full licence (had to rent a bike though to qualify for the full licence).