Topping up a Leap card

JDKB17

I was in the city centre last Saturday and needed to top-up my Leap Card, I went to a Spar and asked for €10 to be put on it. I had no cash on me so I used my bank card, when I presented my bank card to the shop assistant he informed that in order to use my bank card to top-up my Leap Card I would need to buy something from the shop. Now I found this quite strange and usually I would've questioned why that would be a policy or I simply would've gone to another store. However, my bus was due in 1 minute and the next one wasn't for 50 minutes so I had no time to argue or go elsewhere.

I'm obviously not the first and I doubt I'll be the last person to fall to this scam. Have I got a leg to stand on in complaining to Spar or even the relevant Ombudsman?

I personally feel as though its a money making scam. I've never come across such a practice in any other Spar or convenience store and I find it quite odd that one would be forced to purchase store goods in order to top-up a Leap Card.

Victor

The issue for them is that you were using one card to pay for another. They could have been left nursing a loss.

Many shops impose minimum transaction sizes or fees for small card transactions. However, fees are prohibited for Leap Card.

JDKB17

Victor wrote: »

The issue for them is that you were using one card to pay for another. They could have been left nursing a loss.

Many shops impose minimum transaction sizes or fees for small card transactions. However, fees are prohibited for Leap Card.

So I have been scammed then by being forced to purchase something from the shop in order to top-up my Leap Card?

Came across an article from 2016 whereby the NTA were actively seeking for commuters to report shops that practised charging for Leap Card top-up with a bank card.

As far as I can see it's illegal and it's a scam.

whippet

JDKB17 wrote: »

As far as I can see it's illegal and it's a scam.

It’s not illegal and it’s not a scam.

The retailer gets charged for accepting a card for a purchase by the bank. You buy €10 worth it leap credit .. pay for by card .. the shop has to give leap €10 and their bank a small transaction fee .. so they loose money.

LEAP don’t like the fact that retailers do this but all they can do is take the Leap facility off them.

As with anything you are not forced to buy from the retailer and the retailer isn’t obliged to sell to you.

Yourmama

Why not top up with your phone and transfer to leap card with your phone? Saves you trip to shop.

Cheshire Cat

Yourmama wrote: »

Why not top up with your phone and transfer to leap card with your phone? Saves you trip to shop.

Only works if your phone has NFC functionality. A lot of phones don't.

nuac

Title amended from "Retail scam"

Under His Eye

Surely leap pay a commission to the shop, similar to mobile top ups?

ohnonotgmail

Under His Eye wrote: »

Surely leap pay a commission to the shop, similar to mobile top ups?

I'm sure they do but that would be cancelled out by the banks fee for using a debit card.

sexmag

You can download the leap card app,input your card details and then you just put your card up to the phone and add how much credit you want, you won't ever have to use a shop again

ohnonotgmail

sexmag wrote: »

You can download the leap card app,input your card details and then you just put your card up to the phone and add how much credit you want, you won't ever have to use a shop again

as somebody else said this only works if your phone has NFC. not all do.

sexmag

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

as somebody else said this only works if your phone has NFC. not all do.

Fair enough but most phones in the last 4 years have nfc functionality,you can also top up online on their site or set up an auto top up,few ways around going into a shop

troyzer

Payment discrimination was made illegal in January under EU law. It was mostly designed to ban card percentage transaction fees but it also made it illegal for a merchant to discriminate between cards and cash.

So yes, you do have a case if you want to take it up with the ombudsman. It's under the European Payment Services Directive 2.

28064212

sexmag wrote: »

Fair enough but most phones in the last 4 years have nfc functionality

There's also no iPhone app (due to Apple restrictions), I think there might be a fair few of them around

sexmag

sexmag wrote: »

Fair enough but most phones in the last 4 years have nfc functionality,you can also top up online on their site or set up an auto top up,few ways around going into a shop

"NFC will be included in 64% of the mobile phones shipped in 2018, up from 18.2% in 2013"

https://www.nfcworld.com/2014/02/12/327790/two-three-phones-come-nfc-2018/

I think saying most for the past 4 years is a bit of an overstatement.

sexmag

[Deleted User] wrote: »

"NFC will be included in 64% of the mobile phones shipped in 2018, up from 18.2% in 2013"

https://www.nfcworld.com/2014/02/12/327790/two-three-phones-come-nfc-2018/

I think saying most for the past 4 years is a bit of an overstatement.

Splitting hairs here,I added 2 other options for payments after the app option

Samuel T. Cogley

Refusing service on these grounds is not discrimination, therefore they can refuse service if they wish. Nothing illegal. May be a contractual breach with them and leap/visa but that's about it.

sexmag

sexmag wrote: »

Splitting hairs here,I added 2 other options for payments after the app option

And how will a 14 year old top up their card if they only realised it was empty when they tried to use it on the way home from school?

punisher5112

Why don't you select auto top up direct from your Visa of bank..

Very easy to set up. Never will you be out of credit or in a panic to get it.

cruizer101

Deleted User wrote: »

And how will a 14 year old top up their card if they only realised it was empty when they tried to use it on the way home from school?

Not many 14 year olds with bank cards, would imagine they be using cash anyway

sexmag

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And how will a 14 year old top up their card if they only realised it was empty when they tried to use it on the way home from school?

Well seeing as most 14 year olds don't have a job and their main source of income is mammy and daddy,call them and have them top up online

Also before you try and rebute
" 91 percent of teenagers, ages 13 to 17, access the internet on cell phones, tablets and other mobile devices at least occasionally."

http://www.growingwireless.com/get-the-facts/quick-facts

Mrs OBumble

Cheshire Cat wrote: »

Only works if your phone has NFC functionality. A lot of phones don't.

Set up an auto top-up on your Leap card then.

Victor

Deleted User wrote: »

And how will a 14 year old top up their card if they only realised it was empty when they tried to use it on the way home from school?

If they have a debit card, they could withdraw cash / get a cashback.

If they only have cash, minimum Leap Card top-up is €5, typical schoolchild fare €1 or less.

coylemj

punisher5112 wrote: »

Why don't you select auto top up direct from your Visa of bank..

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Set up an auto top-up on your Leap card then.

The minimum topup amount when you select auto topup is €30, this gets triggered when your balance goes below €10 so they will have almost €40 of your money every time they do the topup.

The NFC phone app allows you to manually topup by as little as €5. If they reduced the auto topup minimum to €10 I would sign up but not for €30.

messrs

Victor wrote: »

The issue for them is that you were using one card to pay for another. They could have been left nursing a loss.

Many shops impose minimum transaction sizes or fees for small card transactions. However, fees are prohibited for Leap Card.

Is this just when you use a debit card to top up? Any time i top up in my local shop there is a 50c Surcharge to do so

punisher5112

coylemj wrote: »

The minimum topup amount when you select auto topup is €30, this gets triggered when your balance goes below €10 so they will have almost €40 of your money every time they do the topup.

The NFC phone app allows you to manually topup by as little as €5. If they reduced the auto topup minimum to €10 I would sign up but not for €30.

I believe it's lower then that now, that was when it 1st came in.

coylemj

punisher5112 wrote: »

I believe it's lower then that now, that was when it 1st came in.

Auto Top-Up

Auto Top-Up is the easiest way to Top-Up your TFI Leap Card. If you choose to enable Auto Top-Up, your TFI Leap Card will automatically Top-Up with funds from your bank account whenever your Travel Credit balance falls below €10. You can choose to Auto Top-Up by €30, €40 or €50.

https://about.leapcard.ie/autotop-up

ohnonotgmail

punisher5112 wrote: »

I believe it's lower then that now, that was when it 1st came in.

the options are still €30, 40 or 50.

Get Real

JDKB17 wrote: »

So I have been scammed then by being forced to purchase something from the shop in order to top-up my Leap Card?

Came across an article from 2016 whereby the NTA were actively seeking for commuters to report shops that practised charging for Leap Card top-up with a bank card.

As far as I can see it's illegal and it's a scam.

You weren't scammed. The shop wasn't charging for your leap card top up. They were charging for use of a bank card.

You had to buy something in the shop as the shop is paid a tiny percentage of the leap fare, say 20cent for a 10euro sale. Now with cash,they get that 20cent.

Paying with card, they have to incur a charge of 50 cent. So it would mean incurring a loss of 40cent on all sole leap transactions with a card. They're a business and its not in their interest. They don't have to sell to you. You could have left and went to another shop or atm. If you had have added on a packet of crisps, they would have just broke even.

And also, you may have misread the article you mention, shops can't charge a leap card top up fee. They can charge a fee for paying by card.

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2015/11/18/an-end-in-sight-to-friction-over-leap-card-top-up-charges/

"There are about 400 agents in Dublin where you can top-up your Leap card. They can charge a fee for processing an electronic payment, like a debit or credit card. But they’re not allowed to levy a fee on that transaction if you’re paying in cash."

punisher5112

Honestly thought it had been lowered.

Still no escuse in this day and age to be out of credit.

Sure what difference does it make as if a regular user as many are, why be the whole time holding others up and the bus as the credit is always negative, then having to search for change, try to top up card and then trying to get change off others or the usual ah look I just topped it up yada yada.

Happens a lot....

5star02707

I get your point OP but the best way to top up without any fees is using the Leap app but your phone needs to have NFC for it or alternatively top up on Luas stations / stops.

That's what i usually do there are many Luas stops and i use their machine to top up my leap card hope that helps

punisher5112

5star02707 wrote: »

I get your point OP but the best way to top up without any fees is using the Leap app but your phone needs to have NFC for it or alternatively top up on Luas stations / stops.

That's what i usually do there are many Luas stops and i use their machine to top up my leap card hope that helps

Train station also such as dart ticket machines.

Stephen15

I always top up when the balance gets to €2 or lower but still in positive figures that way there'll always be enough in case of emmergencies. Shouldnt be leaving it to the last minute to top up just before you get on a bus.

That being said in the early days of leap before the app I got on buses without money on it not reaslising and the driver didn't care not sure this is still the case.

ezra_

You'll probably find that the shop is breaking its agreement with its merchant acquirer.

When you get your receipt, look to see who provides the service (or look on screen when the connection is made).

If you have been charged a minimum fee, you can contact the acquirer to complain. They might do something about it.

Victor

messrs wrote: »

Is this just when you use a debit card to top up? Any time i top up in my local shop there is a 50c Surcharge to do so

Complain to Leap Card if you are charged a fee when paying cash.

troyzer

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Refusing service on these grounds is not discrimination, therefore they can refuse service if they wish. Nothing illegal. May be a contractual breach with them and leap/visa but that's about it.

Get Real wrote: »

You weren't scammed. The shop wasn't charging for your leap card top up. They were charging for use of a bank card.

You had to buy something in the shop as the shop is paid a tiny percentage of the leap fare, say 20cent for a 10euro sale. Now with cash,they get that 20cent.

Paying with card, they have to incur a charge of 50 cent. So it would mean incurring a loss of 40cent on all sole leap transactions with a card. They're a business and its not in their interest. They don't have to sell to you. You could have left and went to another shop or atm. If you had have added on a packet of crisps, they would have just broke even.

And also, you may have misread the article you mention, shops can't charge a leap card top up fee. They can charge a fee for paying by card.

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2015/11/18/an-end-in-sight-to-friction-over-leap-card-top-up-charges/

"There are about 400 agents in Dublin where you can top-up your Leap card. They can charge a fee for processing an electronic payment, like a debit or credit card. But they’re not allowed to levy a fee on that transaction if you’re paying in cash."

You're both wrong. Read the new Payment Directive that came into effect in January. It is illegal for merchants to charge extra to process cards. You are not allowed to discriminate between methods of payment.

Samuel T. Cogley

troyzer wrote: »

You're both wrong. Read the new Payment Directive that came into effect in January. It is illegal for merchants to charge extra to process cards. You are not allowed to discriminate between methods of payment.

They're not charging for the use of the card, they're refusing service. If you can point me to the Irish legislation that says they can't do that I'll concede the point but as it stands IMO refusing service is fine, charging for use of the card is not.

troyzer

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

They're not charging for the use of the card, they're refusing service. If you can point me to the Irish legislation that says they can't do that I'll concede the point but as it stands IMO refusing service is fine, charging for use of the card is not.

The shop isn't refusing service. It is requiring the customer to make an extra purchase to use their card. This is illegal.

It's not Irish law, it's European law.

ohnonotgmail

troyzer wrote: »

The shop isn't refusing service. It is requiring the customer to make an extra purchase to use their card. This is illegal.

It's not Irish law, it's European law.

refusing service is exactly what it is. It is not an extra charge for paying by card. What is illegal is adding an additional charge just for using a card. there is no extra charge so there is nothing illegal.

troyzer

JDKB17 wrote: »

I was in the city centre last Saturday and needed to top-up my Leap Card, I went to a Spar and asked for €10 to be put on it. I had no cash on me so I used my bank card, when I presented my bank card to the shop assistant he informed that in order to use my bank card to top-up my Leap Card I would need to buy something from the shop. Now I found this quite strange and usually I would've questioned why that would be a policy or I simply would've gone to another store. However, my bus was due in 1 minute and the next one wasn't for 50 minutes so I had no time to argue or go elsewhere.

I'm obviously not the first and I doubt I'll be the last person to fall to this scam. Have I got a leg to stand on in complaining to Spar or even the relevant Ombudsman?

I personally feel as though its a money making scam. I've never come across such a practice in any other Spar or convenience store and I find it quite odd that one would be forced to purchase store goods in order to top-up a Leap Card.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

refusing service is exactly what it is. It is not an extra charge for paying by card. What is illegal is adding an additional charge just for using a card. there is no extra charge so there is nothing illegal.

Read the OP.

ohnonotgmail

troyzer wrote: »

Read the OP.

I did read the OP. the OP does not mention an extra charge.

troyzer

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I did read the OP. the OP does not mention an extra charge.

Forcing the OP to buy something else in the shop constitutes an extra charge. If the OP had paid by cash, they wouldn't have had to. Which is discriminating between forms of payment.

Which as said repeatedly, was just made illegal.

wench

sexmag wrote: »

Well seeing as most 14 year olds don't have a job and their main source of income is mammy and daddy,call them and have them top up online

Also before you try and rebute
" 91 percent of teenagers, ages 13 to 17, access the internet on cell phones, tablets and other mobile devices at least occasionally."

http://www.growingwireless.com/get-the-facts/quick-facts

Online topup isn't realtime, it usually happens overnight. They give themselves up to 48 hours to apply it.


https://about.leapcard.ie/about/using-leap

whippet

troyzer wrote: »

Forcing the OP to buy something else in the shop constitutes an extra charge. If the OP had paid by cash, they wouldn't have had to. Which is discriminating between forms of payment.

Which as said repeatedly, was just made illegal.

Have you a reference for this claim ... where you claim that requiring a purchase constitutes an extra charge in relation to this legislation?

TheChizler

PSD2 allows retailers to add on a charge to cover the cost of processing a card if processing a card would put the transaction into a negative profit for them. This is in the case of topping up mobile phones, or travel cards. The charge can't exceed the cost of accepting the card though. I'm not sure if that translates into requiring the customer add something else to the purchase though.

troyzer

whippet wrote: »

Have you a reference for this claim ... where you claim that requiring a purchase constitutes an extra charge in relation to this legislation?

Requiring an extra purchase by definition is an extra charge. There's no way a merchant would win in court.

The directive is really clear that a merchant has to be blind to payment methods except for some companies like American Express, in which case they're allowed to charge a fee to cover their costs but no more. They're also not obligated to take cheques. But if they take cards and cash, they can't treat them differentely.

whippet

troyzer wrote: »

Requiring an extra purchase by definition is an extra charge. There's no way a merchant would win in court.

Have you a reference to this definition or is it your definition?

troyzer

whippet wrote: »

Have you a reference to this definition or is it your definition?

By common sense definition. There haven't been any court cases as far as I know that have clarified the wording but it's pretty obvious a merchant would lose if they tried to claim that forcing a customer to buy something extra doesn't constitute and extra charge.

I mean seriously, are you just playing devil's advocate or are you that dense?

ohnonotgmail

troyzer wrote: »

By common sense definition. There haven't been any court cases as far as I know that have clarified the wording but it's pretty obvious a merchant would lose if they tried to claim that forcing a customer to buy something extra doesn't constitute and extra charge.

I mean seriously, are you just playing devil's advocate or are you that dense?

what is dense about asking to clarify what definition you are using? last i looked this is the legal discussion forum. Definitions are important. And they dont always match the "common sense" definition. Do you have a link to EU directive you are referring to?

whippet

troyzer wrote: »

By common sense definition. There haven't been any court cases as far as I know that have clarified the wording but it's pretty obvious a merchant would lose if they tried to claim that forcing a customer to buy something extra doesn't constitute and extra charge.

I mean seriously, are you just playing devil's advocate or are you that dense?

“I object your honour ... clearly you are too dense to agree with me”

I can see that working alright ðŸ€

JDKB17

Yourmama wrote: »

Why not top up with your phone and transfer to leap card with your phone? Saves you trip to shop.

I have an iPhone, sadly that is only an option on Androids which I will always be baffled by.