A/R/Tist in the Spotlight - Swashbuckler

skyblue46

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Most lads I see who struggle with getting sub 50 10k are usually not training right or are overweight or enjoy the finer things in life like pints, food etc or aren't training that long or all of the above. Not talent. My buddy came off double Achilles surgery. No running history. Unhealthy, boozed a lot, would say himself he was overweight. Started proper training, worked together on a specific plan to address his weaknesses over time, lost a lot of weight. Cut back on booze and recently ran sub 20 5k and isn't far off sub 40 10k. Not talent. Just hard work. The guy that comes off a little football training is likely fitter to begin with. We can all reach a good standard with just hard work. Anyway we're probably going around circles at this stage. Haha

We are...and I could give examples at the other end of the scale. Anyway my 4 pack of craft beers are finished and I have to be up at 6:30 to start running at 7:30 so I better say goodnight.

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

We are...and I could give examples at the other end of the scale. Anyway my 4 pack of craft beers are finished and I have to be up at 6:30 to start running at 7:30 so I better say goodnight.

Haha cut back on that craft beer and work on your talent.

Just to harp back to the original question - I've asked myself that question in the past and the reason I asked was because I was trying to figure out what were the limits of my ability. Where is my ceiling. Can I reach 30.xx for the 10k or is the limit of my talent or ability at some slower time? . So ariana, if that was partly why you asked the question, I think you're a million miles from your ceiling yet. You're not even close to your limit. You have a great attitude with your running. And never limit yourself on where you "think" your limit is. If that's not why you asked then good question and you triggered a good debate!

skyblue46

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Haha cut back on that craft beer and work on your talent.

Just to harp back to the original question - I've asked myself that question in the past and the reason I asked was because I was trying to figure out what were the limits of my ability. Where is my ceiling. Can I reach 30.xx for the 10k or is the limit of my talent or ability at some slower time? . So ariana, if that was partly why you asked the question, I think you're a million miles from your ceiling yet. You're not even close to your limit. You have a great attitude with your running. And never limit yourself on where you "think" your limit is. If that's not why you asked then good question and you triggered a good debate!

Re Ariana...agreed! Loads more there before you max out.

Swashbuckler

Murph_D wrote:

Q - How do you manage pain (if you haven’t answered this yet?) Do you have a particular technique or just pure stubbornness, 00negative-style?

Wanted to revisit this one coz I had a think about it on my run this morning. I love to reflect. Haha. There was a few techniques I forgot to mention. One in particular I forgot and it seems to work for me and others quite a bit is bargaining. Tell yourself if you make it to 3k then you can stop then, when you get to 3k then renegotiate. Constant renegotiation. Also tell yourself of the rewards you'll give your body. Like "I promise I'll give you a rest tomorrow". I tend to talk to my body parts like they're a separate person which might sound weird but it works. Haha.
I very much look at it like a baby that bumps their head. There's an initial shock where they look at you. That's your chance to wave your arms around and clap and distract them. Haha. The mind and body in a race are like that baby. Constant distraction helps. The tough part is often what works in one race won't work again. Another one is focusing on your technique, breathing etc. Checking in on your "Turnover and form" is a good one I've seen one of the Kenyan lads on here use. Are my arms swinging, are my knees lifting, how's my breathing etc. Anyway just wanted to add to this.

Murph_D

Good post. Duanington’s ‘turnover and form’ is one I’ve been thinking about myself, although I struggle to get any coherent thoughts going during the white heat of racing to be honest (and it’s all relative). Dubgal was a great believer in the ‘systems check’ that you also describe. And the ‘cattle prod’ - you’re OK, don’t fall asleep, keep pushing.

The former poster TRR had an intriguing mantra that I’ve tried to adopt re pain - “Relax and let it in”. Again I’ve struggled to respond to this myself but I sometimes use it when pacing others.

This question is really key to effective racing, I think - finding a way to turn off the ‘central governor’. You seem to be mastering the art. I like the bargaining theory - Again it’s something I do in training but rarely in a race.

Thanks for the reflections!

Swashbuckler

Murph_D wrote:

This question is really key to effective racing, I think - finding a way to turn off the ‘central governor’. You seem to be mastering the art. I like the bargaining theory - Again it’s something I do in training but rarely in a race.

I'm not sure I've mastered anything yet to be honest. It seems to be getting tougher over time. It's especially tough with the 5k and 10k I think because you're at the limits of how much oxygen you can deliver to your body. It's high stress. That's a really uncomfortable place to be.

Murph_D

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I'm not sure I've mastered anything yet to be honest. It seems to be getting tougher over time. It's especially tough with the 5k and 10k I think because you're at the limits of how much oxygen you can deliver to your body. It's high stress. That's a really uncomfortable place to be.

If you are getting to the limits (and that doesn’t mean world records, we are talking relatively here) you are mastering the art. Most people don’t get close to where they could be for the level of talent/work they have/do.

Swashbuckler

Thanks for all the questions so far. Ye have me for one more night lads! Next "volunteer" identified

adrian522

Swashbuckler wrote: »

And I think genetics has less of a role for people at our level. We could all get to 35 minute 10ks. No exception.

I guess I must just be lazy and most other runners I know must be lazy too.

ariana`

Thanks P & S for the great debate! Some interesting angles from both of you (ever the diplomat i am :P). As you rightly identified the question was two-fold - some runners just seem to make it look easier to make gains or to take long breaks when the weather isn't favourable for example and then pick up where they left off. I took a break when i had my last baby, the "baby" who is now 3 and loves telling me he not a baby, and i'm still eating the dust of my friend who i had been faster than prior to taking that break

And the other thought behind the question you hit on below... and i appreciate the encouraging replies. Some times it feels like a slog to see results, thankfully an enjoyable slog most of the time

Loving all your answers P, really interesting stuff on handling pain as well

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Haha cut back on that craft beer and work on your talent.

Just to harp back to the original question - I've asked myself that question in the past and the reason I asked was because I was trying to figure out what were the limits of my ability. Where is my ceiling. Can I reach 30.xx for the 10k or is the limit of my talent or ability at some slower time? . So ariana, if that was partly why you asked the question, I think you're a million miles from your ceiling yet. You're not even close to your limit. You have a great attitude with your running. And never limit yourself on where you "think" your limit is. If that's not why you asked then good question and you triggered a good debate!

skyblue46 wrote: »

Re Ariana...agreed! Loads more there before you max out.

Thanks

kerrylad1

Question 1,I see you played soccer in Limerick,what team and level did you play at.what position,and we're you any good.Question 2,you run out the ul bank,did you ever have to jump in a bush to empty the Bowl'sQuestion 3,if there was one race,you could go back in time,and win a gold for Ireland what race would it be.

Swashbuckler

adrian522 wrote:

I guess I must just be lazy and most other runners I know must be lazy too.

It saddens me that out of everything you've read in this chat that's the conclusion you've come to. And that skyblue liked it? Was the point of this thread completely missed?

skyblue46

Ah now don't be like that. I've maintained a view all through this debate that some people are restricted by natural ability be that 50 mins or 45. Murph saying every reasonably fit bloke can do a 4 hour marathon is something I agree with...a 35 min 10k I think is going a bit far. I've not been behind the bush about what I think. Some people can do 35, others will not no matter how perfect their training plan is.

skyblue46

Also the topic kept the 3 of us engaged for quite a bit of our run this morning :pac:

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

Ah now don't be like that. I've maintained a view all through this debate that some people are restricted by natural ability be that 50 mins or 45. Murph saying every reasonably fit bloke can do a 4 hour marathon is something I agree with...a 35 min 10k I think is going a bit far. I've not been behind the bush about what I think. Some people can do 35, others will not no matter how perfect their training plan is.

I never suggested anyone was lazy. I interpreted from the original question that what was implied was how much does talent play in me reaching a really fast time and my point was it doesn't and anyone who's willing to work hard will get there. Given enough time I think 35 is achievable for most people. But anyway it has been taken up differently. So be it.

Swashbuckler

ariana` wrote:

Thanks P & S for the great debate! Some interesting angles from both of you (ever the diplomat i am ). As you rightly identified the question was two-fold - some runners just seem to make it look easier to make gains or to take long breaks when the weather isn't favourable for example and then pick up where they left off. I took a break when i had my last baby, the "baby" who is now 3 and loves telling me he not a baby, and i'm still eating the dust of my friend who i had been faster than prior to taking that break

Thanks Ariana. Yeah some runners are just lucky that the gains come quick. I'm not sure if I'm one of those haha. I've had the blessing of personalized coaching in the last 9 months so that has helped. It definitely helps to have specific tailored advice along the way. Stick with it though. I can see the gains you've made and they'll continue to come. Tough days like the ten miler you had yesterday will stand to you in the long term.

ariana` wrote:

And the other thought behind the question you hit on below... and i appreciate the encouraging replies. Some times it feels like a slog to see results, thankfully an enjoyable slog most of the time

Yeah definitely a slog sometimes. One piece of advice or comment I'd have here is that the people I know who do a lot of interval training and sessions seem to find it a leas of a slog. The people I know that do those long marathon blocks find it more sloggish. Haha

Swashbuckler

kerrylad1 wrote:

Question 1,I see you played soccer in Limerick,what team and level did you play at.what position,and we're you any good.Question 2,you run out the ul bank,did you ever have to jump in a bush to empty the Bowl'sQuestion 3,if there was one race,you could go back in time,and win a gold for Ireland what race would it be.

No level whatsoever. Company team as well as night owls and five a side. Played with Regional B for a while. That was the second last ankle twist. Played on the wing and central midfield. Was OK but nothing special. A hard worker for the team.

Haha no.. Never... I've never had a bowel mishap on a run.

London Olympics 2012 10k. Just to spoil the Mo Farah party.

kerrylad1

Swashbuckler wrote: »

No level whatsoever. Company team as well as night owls and five a side. Played with Regional B for a while. That was the second last ankle twist. Played on the wing and central midfield. Was OK but nothing special. A hard worker for the team.

Haha no.. Never... I've never had a bowel mishap on a run.

London Olympics 2012 10k. Just to spoil the Mo Farah party.

Good honest answers as usual.I must change my diet,ha ha.I've the farmers fields here in ballyneety ruined.I was like urself,played 2a to 4b.But I was useless.

skyblue46

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I never suggested anyone was lazy. I interpreted from the original question that what was implied was how much does talent play in me reaching a really fast time and my point was it doesn't and anyone who's willing to work hard will get there. Given enough time I think 35 is achievable for most people. But anyway it has been taken up differently. So be it.

I interpreted the lazy comment as something tongue in cheek tbh.

I suppose the question of working hard is like how long is a piece of string.....in that different people will have different views on where hard begins.

skyblue46

kerrylad1 wrote: »

Good honest answers as usual.I must change my diet,ha ha.I've the farmers fields here in ballyneety ruined.I was like urself,played 2a to 4b.But I was useless.

Mental images I don't need to be seeing of a Sunday morning!

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

I suppose the question of working hard is like how long is a piece of string.....in that different people will have different views on where hard begins.

I think we can all reach similar level. Some might take longer than others. Maybe that's where the talent lies. But Ill never limit myself with my goals. Low 30s for a 10k is a ridiculous target to be honest, but why not aim for it? Same applies to you or anyone. I don't make any excuses. I'll rarely miss a run and I'll work endlessly towards my goals. That's hard work. I could easily sit here and say the fast local lads are just naturally gifted. I'll never be as fast as them. But I won't. I'll work my ass off to reach their level.

Lazare

That was a great debate, well done all.

I know it's likely semantics but I think the idea of 'talent' is a myth. It's all genetics. Genetics is a spectrum, some people are born with adaptations that allow them to excel, at whatever field. Or rather, born with the tools to allow them excel.
The best sommeliers are born with an excellent sense of smell and taste, the best guitarists are born with rhythm. The best athletes are born with an excellent aerobic system. It all requires hard work though, which is also genetic.
The best are called talented, but in reality, they've just lucked out on the genetic lottery.


Genetics plays a role in everything.

Every one of us was born with above average running genes compared to the sedentary.

I agree with skyblue, we all have different glass ceilings, depending on where we fall on that above average genetic lottery spectrum.

Remember though, whether your glass ceiling is a 55 min 10k or a 4:30 marathon, most people's glass ceiling is the couch.

Murph_D

Another thing genetics gives you is form, body type, whether or not you are injury-prone - it all adds to how hard you can work, how your body reacts, how quickly you adapt and recover.

I don’t think the talent debate is a cop out - it’s being realistic, as is taking other variables like gender, age, etc into account when setting goals and measuring progress.

35m 10k is pushing it for the ordinary runner though. Duanington is resilient, works his ass off, has beautiful form, isn’t too ancient, and even he hasn’t got there yet!

Good discussion.

Swashbuckler

Lazare wrote:

Remember though, whether your glass ceiling is a 55 min 10k or a 4:30 marathon, most people's glass ceiling is the couch.

I genuinely don't think anyone has a glass ceiling of 55min 10k but I get your point.

Murph_D wrote:

35m 10k is pushing it for the ordinary runner though. Duanington is resilient, works his ass off, has beautiful form, isn’t too ancient, and even he hasn’t got there yet!

Davey had some bad luck in fairness. He'll be running 35min in his sleep this time next year all going well. Skyblue also has a 35min 10k in him. He just doesn't realise it yet. Haha

skyblue46

Haha...I realise it's possible. I do, and I will continue to work hard as long as I can. Not sure I can ever do too well on the lifestyle changes though. I also have to accept limits some of which are physical.

Huzzah!

The Sports Gene by David Epstein is a good book on the topic of nurture v nature.

Good thread, Swash. Thanks for taking the time to answer the questions posed.

Swashbuckler

Alas my time in the spotlight has come to an end. Cheers for all of the questions. I didn't think I'd get so much from this but it really got me thinking about a lot of stuff so thanks everyone. I'll be setting up a separate thread for the next victim..... Haha

skyblue46

Hey thanks for doing it. Great honest answers and plenty of details. You took it up a few levels from my Sunday supplement type one line answers! :pac:

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

Hey thanks for doing it. Great honest answers and plenty of details. You took it up a few levels from my Sunday supplement type one line answers!

Cheers for nominating me. I got a lot out of it to be honest.

OOnegative

Excellent read all week, thanks for the honest and insightful answers.