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They're Alive!!!

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    #152
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    acai berry wrote: »
    It's obviously not easy, considering they have top world experts at the scene, doing everything they can. Praying to God it all ends well.

    It is in the most expert hands there are. These are their kids.


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    #153
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,827 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Graces7 wrote: »
    It is in the most expert hands there are. These are their kids.

    Hopefully the Thai officials are following the advice of experienced cave divers & not the military. Cave diving is a totally different specialisation to military diving.

    There are several places on the route where you have to remove your tanks & pass them through separately. Some of the constrictions are 2 ft by 2 ft.


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    #154
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    I'm sometimes wondering why not bring them out with scuba gear and guides.
    I mean one at a time. All he has to do is follow a diver and have another one behind. Maybe with masks that allow communication to talk the kid through it.
    It's almost like they want to be absolutely 100% sure nothing happens while rescuing them and letting them drown in the process.
    I'd rather die trying than die waiting for some expert to come up with a hundred "clever" ways of rescuing me while the water rises.
    If people can routinely dive in and out (yes, even if one guy sadly didn't make it), they can bring the kids out.
    It's like they are ignoring the glaringly obvious and wasting time coming up with nothing much.
    It's killing me to follow this!


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    #155
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,827 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    I'm sometimes wondering why not bring them out with scuba gear and guides.
    I mean one at a time. All he has to do is follow a diver and have another one behind. Maybe with masks that allow communication to talk the kid through it.
    It's almost like they want to be absolutely 100% sure nothing happens while rescuing them and letting them drown in the process.
    I'd rather die trying than die waiting for some expert to come up with a hundred "clever" ways of rescuing me while the water rises.
    If people can routinely dive in and out (yes, even if one guy sadly didn't make it), they can bring the kids out.
    It's like they are ignoring the glaringly obvious and wasting time coming up with nothing much.
    It's killing me to follow this!

    It's a 5 hour trip. You can't easily get full face masks to fit kids. There is extremely low visibility- less than a meter. What do you do if a child panics ? Imagine getting a child to wear a restrictive mask etc & be in cold water with total darkness for hours.

    There is a huge risk & if possible they will want to avoid it. Diving them out is an absolute last resort & won't be done unless the rain arrives & there is no other option.


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    #156
    acai berry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 527 ✭✭✭acai berry


    The fact that one experienced diver has lost his life, makes it all the more obvious how dangerous this is. It's easy for us at the far side of the world to pronounce on what's "glaringly obvious". Not so easy when you're there!


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    #157
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Discodog wrote: »
    Hopefully the Thai officials are following the advice of experienced cave divers & not the military. Cave diving is a totally different specialisation to military diving.

    There are several places on the route where you have to remove your tanks & pass them through separately. Some of the constrictions are 2 ft by 2 ft.

    Read the articles. They know what they are doing.


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    #158
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,827 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    The disappointing news appears to be that the attempt to get an oxygen pipe into the cave has failed. They are so worried about reduced oxygen & CO2 build up that they have reduced the number of rescuers in the cave.


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    #159
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    I'm sometimes wondering why not bring them out with scuba gear and guides.
    I mean one at a time. All he has to do is follow a diver and have another one behind. Maybe with masks that allow communication to talk the kid through it.
    It's almost like they want to be absolutely 100% sure nothing happens while rescuing them and letting them drown in the process.
    I'd rather die trying than die waiting for some expert to come up with a hundred "clever" ways of rescuing me while the water rises.
    If people can routinely dive in and out (yes, even if one guy sadly didn't make it), they can bring the kids out.
    It's like they are ignoring the glaringly obvious and wasting time coming up with nothing much.
    It's killing me to follow this!

    google and read all the articles in detail. All your queries and points have been addressed and answered. These are not amateurs. They know what they are doing and what is possible.

    Bolded is dealt with in detail. By the experts on the scene.


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    #160
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,827 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Read the articles. They know what they are doing.

    I have & there may be a conflict between the Military (Government) & the outside experts - remember it was an outside team that found the boys. A Navy seal diver isn't qualified for cave diving. The government will come under pressure, especially with the huge media presence, as the heavier rains get closer.


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    #161
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    I'm sometimes wondering why not bring them out with scuba gear and guides.
    I mean one at a time. All he has to do is follow a diver and have another one behind. Maybe with masks that allow communication to talk the kid through it.
    It's almost like they want to be absolutely 100% sure nothing happens while rescuing them and letting them drown in the process.
    I'd rather die trying than die waiting for some expert to come up with a hundred "clever" ways of rescuing me while the water rises.
    If people can routinely dive in and out (yes, even if one guy sadly didn't make it), they can bring the kids out.
    It's like they are ignoring the glaringly obvious and wasting time coming up with nothing much.
    It's killing me to follow this!
    It takes 5-6 hours in near zero visibility to get to the cave entrance. They have to change oxygen tanks at numerous stages. There are parts that are too narrow for more than one person, where they also have to take off their oxygen tanks. It's very stressful for professional divers and one even lost his life. For weak, scared, inexperienced kids it's a recipe for disaster and will only be used as a last resort.

    If they can maintain oxygen levels in the cave and the monsoon doesn't flood it, the safest option is to wait it out, even if it takes four months. They might get lucky and find a chimney hole to hoist the boys out but that's looking unlikely.


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    #162
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    This is one of those stories that just makes me sick to my stomach even thinking about it. I actually had a nightmare about it the other night. The poor parents. The poor kids. The poor coach.
    He is being punished enough being trapped in a cave with chance of survival decreasing by the day, so no need to “throw the book at him”. :rolleyes:
    I really hope there is a positive outcome to this.


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    #163
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Graces7 wrote: »
    google and read all the articles in detail. All your queries and points have been addressed and answered. These are not amateurs. They know what they are doing and what is possible.

    Funnily enough amateurs is exactly what they are. But don't take that to mean they aren't experts.

    The first 2 people in the cave were an IT consultant and retired fire fighter from the UK :eek:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44690688

    The big danger in cave diving is that it is penetration diving, meaning that you can't just get to the surface if you are in danger. Which in pretty much any other form of diving you can. Of course it's not always recommended, but it's still preferable to be at the surface with the bends then under water without air.

    Personally I suspect that unless another entrance is found soon they will try to get these boys out by diving. Leaving them there for 3 or 4 months just doesn't seem to be an option.

    And with regards the full face masks suitable for kids, if they are available anywhere in the world they'll be found, if they aren't I'd nearly put money on the fact that a manufacturer somewhere is making them as we speak.


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    #164
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    wexie wrote: »
    Personally I suspect that unless another entrance is found soon they will try to get these boys out by diving. Leaving them there for 3 or 4 months just doesn't seem to be an option.

    I am not an expert on the subject matter, but that does seem to be a reasonable assumption.


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    #165
    acai berry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 527 ✭✭✭acai berry


    The children seem in remarkably good shape considering what they've endured to date. Obviously they were hungry, but I think ten days in total darkness must have had the most damaging affect on their overall health, both mental and physical.


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    #166
    Yester
    Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭Yester


    Elon Musk has a possible solution.
    ✔
    @elonmusk
    Maybe worth trying: insert a 1m diameter nylon tube (or shorter set of tubes for most difficult sections) through cave network & inflate with air like a bouncy castle. Should create an air tunnel underwater against cave roof & auto-conform to odd shapes like the 70cm hole.

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/07/elon-musk-has-an-idea-for-saving-boys-stranded-in-a-thailand-cave/


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    #167
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    they seem to have a plan

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jul/07/parents-boys-trapped-thai-cave-tell-coach-dont-blame-yourself-rescuers-race-against-time


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    #168
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,381 ✭ [Deleted User]


    In other Thai news, the death toll from that boar new Phuket has risen to 41.


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    #169
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Stheno wrote: »
    they seem to have a plan

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jul/07/parents-boys-trapped-thai-cave-tell-coach-dont-blame-yourself-rescuers-race-against-time

    Well, they're running out of time for draining the cave and having them stay in there till January is definitely a non starter and won't happen.
    Totally draining the cave and having them walk out without even having to dip a toe into water was a very remote option at best.
    The next option of drilling down seems to have been quietly discarded as it would take months and once again is a non option.
    So, there is one option left that is staring the authorities in the face, in fact it is slapping them in the face and tweaking their nose.
    Whatever they're going to do (and there is only one realistic option), they have to do it fast as that cave will flood if any serious rain starts.

    The worst outcome would be that the kids drown in the cave whilst the authorities dither and twiddle their thumbs over which option is absolutely 100% safe, because none of them are.


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    #170
    ebbsy
    Registered Users Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    They are in danger of making a balls out of this.

    The Elon Musk idea is good but this would require them to fly the equipment over ?

    I would go with the buddy system, 2 experienced divers with one child. They can do it.


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    #171
    somefeen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭somefeen


    I'd like to see the maths on the Elon musk idea. I think there's no way something like that would stay open with just air pressure over that distance and under water. It would surely need some rigid structure to stay open and inflated.

    It would be more complex than just a nylon tube


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    #172
    obi604
    Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭obi604


    Silly q time.
    So the group are on this ledge and they had to retreat to this ledge etc

    In order for them to have gotten to this ledge, would they have had to crawl through these very small openings (with no water in the openings at time) , but still small openings etc or would it have been more straightforward as cave nor properly flooded as they were retreating to the ledge.


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    #173
    acai berry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 527 ✭✭✭acai berry


    My understanding is they went a few kilometers, exploring how far they could go, while it was dry. Wasn't the idea to celebrate one of the boy's birthday? I'm guessing that when they turned around to go home they found their exit blocked by incoming floods and had to retreat to the ledge. Maybe the ledge was where they had intended to congeregate in the first place. I could be wrong.


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    #174
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,381 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't think they went kilometres. That takes way to long to be a fun initiation rite.


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    #175
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,381 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/jul/08/thailand-cave-rescue-operation-divers-trapped-boys-live

    Rescue operation has started.


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    #176
    Sam Quentin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,223 ✭✭✭Sam Quentin


    It has begun...
    God bless each and every one of them and please give them safe passage.

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/07/07/latest-thai-cave-rescue-underway.html


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    #177
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,381 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It seems the boys may not need to have dive at all, though this has not been 100% confirmed by officials.

    “Although there are some slightly difficult parts that we have to bend or crawl [in] we can say that we can just walk through,” Narongsak Osatanakorn, former governor of Chiang Rai province, who is heading up the rescue operation said of conditions in the cave.

    “We have done extremely well as yesterday we were able to reduce the water level by 30cm, the record of what we’ve achieved.”


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    #178
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,781 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    somefeen wrote: »
    I'd like to see the maths on the Elon musk idea. I think there's no way something like that would stay open with just air pressure over that distance and under water. It would surely need some rigid structure to stay open and inflated.

    It would be more complex than just a nylon tube

    Latest Musk idea was small kevlar protected pods. They apparently have them almost built at their labs. And flying them to Thai would take another 17 hours. It's fantastic that they are trying to solve the problem, but it also (unfortunately) smacks of a master promotionalist capitalising on a situation

    Regardless, the rescue op has begun


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    #179
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    fingers crossed, hopefully some good news by this afternoon.


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    #180
    acai berry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 527 ✭✭✭acai berry


    wexie wrote: »
    fingers crossed, hopefully some good news by this afternoon.

    Same! Please the Lord!


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    #181
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Discodog wrote: »
    I have & there may be a conflict between the Military (Government) & the outside experts - remember it was an outside team that found the boys. A Navy seal diver isn't qualified for cave diving. The government will come under pressure, especially with the huge media presence, as the heavier rains get closer.

    This is highly speculative and misinformed. There's nothing to suggest there has been disagreements between the military and outside cave diving experts.

    It's also not factual to suggest that Thai Navy Seal divers aren't qualified for cave diving, what gives you that idea? Many are qualified and the people who've been with the kids most of the time at this stage are Navy Seal divers.


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