Brexit discussion thread IV

Sam Russell

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Theresa May announces Festival of Great Britain and NI plan

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-45697248


:rolleyes:

Another 120 million GBP down drain due to Brexit, anyone keeping tabs?

Another diversion - what Brexit - oh look over there - a festival of UKness!

Along with the FIFA 2030 World Cup, jointly with England, Wales, Scotland, NI, and - wait for it - Ireland. How did we get involved?

J Mysterio

May interview on Marr from 34:00:

Fair play to Marr, he really grilled her and repeated many questions as she tried to wriggle out of it.

The UK has really become a place under this administration. Hostile Environment and Brexit. Marr really took her to task on her Hostile Environment policy, as she squirmed to avoid ownership of it. Plans also afoot for punitive taxes on foreign house buyers. The UK can no longer be called a modern democracy, it is some sort of strange xenophobic, isolationist, nationalist enclave, preparing for a bonfire of regulations and social safeguards. If we think the treatment of Windrush is bad, wait and see what is down the line for 'ordinary British citizens'.

May still in full denial on Chequers also. Still 'looking for the detail' of why it is unacceptable to the EU (wake up Theresa, this was spelled out two years ago) and sill full of platitudes and tired cliches.

'I've been very clear'
'We will make a success of Brexit'
'Deliver for the British people'
'I'm being ambitous for Britain'
'Lets hear what the problems are for the EU'
"Lets have counter-proposals'
'Its the only plan on the table'

Christy42

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Theresa May announces Festival of Great Britain and NI plan

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-45697248

The government has announced plans for a Festival of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to take place in 2022.

The proposal was unveiled as the Conservatives gathered in Birmingham for their annual party conference.

Prime Minister Theresa May said the festival will strengthen what she describes as "our precious union".

:rolleyes:

Another 120 million GBP down drain due to Brexit, anyone keeping tabs?

I think another post had a link to 500m a week so a once off 120 million is small fry compared to what they are losing at this stage.

It won't happen. Next government will look at the waste of money and try and pump it into the economy. May knows this.

J Mysterio

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Theresa May announces Festival of Great Britain and NI plan

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-45697248

:rolleyes:

Another 120 million GBP down drain due to Brexit, anyone keeping tabs?

How wonderful. Will this celebrate how this union came to be? Will they discuss the origins of NI? Will they celebrate the effective apartheid that existed there for much of its existence and how it cannot now form a government and how her party is being bribed by the DUP? Will they also look to the future of NI? It's looking real rosy.

Capt'n Midnight

J Mysterio wrote: »

How wonderful. Will this celebrate how this union came to be? Will they discuss the origins of NI? Will they celebrate the effective apartheid that existed there for much of its existence and how it cannot now form a government and how her party is being bribed by the DUP? Will they also look to the future of NI? It's looking real rosy.

No they won't. It'll be watered down history that will upset all sides.

Unless it's a cunning plan to annoy the DUP enough to force a GE.

Then it's not May's fault if the DUP look ungrateful and un-British and if she gets the sympathy vote for them backstabbing her she might win the election, if not , she tried her best and Labour will deliver Brexit right on schedule anyway.

And it doesn't matter what sort of Brexit Labour deliver. Because when the Tories get in next they can change it to the sort they like.

judeboy101

J Mysterio wrote: »

May interview on Marr from 34:00:

Fair play to Marr, he really grilled her and repeated many questions as she tried to wriggle out of it.

The UK has really become a place under this administration. Hostile Environment and Brexit. Marr really took her to task on her Hostile Environment policy, as she squirmed to avoid ownership of it. Plans also afoot for punitive taxes on foreign house buyers. The UK can no longer be called a modern democracy, it is some sort of strange xenophobic, isolationist, nationalist enclave, preparing for a bonfire of regulations and social safeguards. If we think the treatment of Windrush is bad, wait and see what is down the line for 'ordinary British citizens'.

May still in full denial on Chequers also. Still 'looking for the detail' of why it is unacceptable to the EU (wake up Theresa, this was spelled out two years ago) and sill full of platitudes and tired cliches.

'I've been very clear'
'We will make a success of Brexit'
'Deliver for the British people'
'I'm being ambitous for Britain'
'Lets hear what the problems are for the EU'
"Lets have counter-proposals'
'Its the only plan on the table'

@35:20 is that Bojo jogging in the background? There can't be many portly flaxen haired men running at that hr of the morn 🙂

zapitastas

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Theresa May announces Festival of Great Britain and NI plan

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-45697248


:rolleyes:

Another 120 million GBP down drain due to Brexit, anyone keeping tabs?

First thing that pops into the head there is golem from Lord of the rings

J Mysterio

J Mysterio wrote: »

May interview on Marr from 34:00:

Fair play to Marr, he really grilled her and repeated many questions as she tried to wriggle out of it.

The UK has really become a place under this administration. Hostile Environment and Brexit. Marr really took her to task on her Hostile Environment policy, as she squirmed to avoid ownership of it. Plans also afoot for punitive taxes on foreign house buyers. The UK can no longer be called a modern democracy, it is some sort of strange xenophobic, isolationist, nationalist enclave, preparing for a bonfire of regulations and social safeguards. If we think the treatment of Windrush is bad, wait and see what is down the line for 'ordinary British citizens'.

May still in full denial on Chequers also. Still 'looking for the detail' of why it is unacceptable to the EU (wake up Theresa, this was spelled out two years ago) and sill full of platitudes and tired cliches.

'I've been very clear'
'We will make a success of Brexit'
'Deliver for the British people'
'I'm being ambitous for Britain'
'Lets hear what the problems are for the EU'
"Lets have counter-proposals'
'Its the only plan on the table'

Jesus I just hate listening to her. She just repeats the same "I'm working hard blah " all the time.

I wish she'd just say "Yes, there will be a border."

Econ__

Leroy42 wrote: »

But isn't a transition period itself a fudge. If the UK leave on 29th, there is no reason for a transition period unless the EU need it. It was originally offered as part on overall agreement,combined with Backstop, divorce settlement and EU citizens rights.

But it was to give both parties time to prepare. Neither side is ready for a crash out and whilst they will pretend that its a transition, surely that will raise problems with other countries. Will, for example, would Turkey have to continue with their checks. The EU are happy to allow the rules of the SM be tweaked.

They will of course dress it up as being the UK are aligned, but there will be no systems to check that so it will be simply based on trust. SO much for a rules based system.

The UK requested the transition period.

It isn't a fudge. The UK will be bound by international law to follow all existing and any new EU rules throughout that 21 month period and have legally committed to paying the equivalent membership costs (if the Withdrawal Agreement gets passed).

EdgeCase

So she's going to host a big unionist festival in Northern Ireland to calm things down after Brexit?

Are the Tories actually trying to cause conflict in the North? It's really starting to look like it.

It's getting to the stage that just being 'tone deaf', 'ignorant' and a 'bit thick' is really not cutting it as an excuse anymore. They are clearly out to deliberately cause problems.

You're talking about an area that is ultra sensitive about symbols of national identity and that has barely gotten out of one of the most violent conflicts in post WWII Western Europe and that still regularly has conflicts over things like flags and she's planning to dress the whole thing up in union jacks and have a bit of an old knees up and a few garden parties to celebrate the Union?

Utterly mad!

You might as well be suggesting that you stand in a bull ring waving a large red table cloth.

Leroy42

Econ__ wrote: »

The UK requested the transition period.

It isn't a fudge. The UK will be bound by international law to follow all existing and any new EU rules throughout that 21 month period and have legally committed to paying the equivalent membership costs (if the Withdrawal Agreement gets passed).

Yes, but the transition was part of the December Agreement. If the backstop is not agreed, which the UK is saying that it cannot agree to, then there is no basis for transition. However, the EU is not ready for a crash out and so the likelihood is that a transition period will be given regardless of the agreement and it suits both sides to agree to it.

Econ__

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think the arch-Brexiteers, especially the guys behind the scenes see themselves as revolutionaries similar to Thatcher even though she was a major driver of the single market's creation. They see the EU holding back the UK the same way that Thatcher viewed trade unions and the state. They've convinced themselves that despite being highly privileged, ludicrously wealthy and cossetted as such right wingers always are, they are somehow the victims and underdogs.

They also seem to hate the EU. I don't understand why. Is it that they don't like foreigners being in the UK? Is it the idea of pan-European cooperation? Or perhaps it's the simple truth that in an age of globalisation and American and Chinese power that England just isn't that important anymore? That it's less relevant than before?

While hindsight is 20:20, I just don't see how Brexit will enrich the UK. It will likely fortify the position of the cossetted conservative types who now seem to be dominating the Conservative party to say nothing of foreign interference and dark money. How odd that these nationalists seem to have no qualms with the possibility that a hostile foreign power interfered with British democracy.

There are no markets beyond those currently in existence. The Commonwealth is much too small to replace the EU's single market. A trade deal with the US will require the NHS to be opened up to foreign corporations which would like destroy it and just be another way to transfer taxpayers' money to the private sector. India has said that any trade deal will require more visas for Indians. A deal with China will probably decimate what remains of Britain's manufacturing industry.

I think it's highly unlikely that people voted to Leave so that the hollowing out processes of British institutions could progress to the next level. The "Take back control" slogan resonated for a reason and we now have a shadowy cabal of high-up Tories looking to establish Singapore-on-Thames where workers' rights no longer exists, healthcare becomes unaffordable for many, public services vanish and housing is only for the very wealthy to invest in.

And it'll still be the EU's fault.

There are broadly two types of Brexiteer.

The free marketeer type - ideologically believe in classical free markets, despises the increasing importance of regulation in global trade (of which the EU is a major driver in). Pro immigration and pro freedom of movement as goes hand in hand with free market ideology (he won't forthrightly admit this as he knows it's a vote loser in the UK)


The nativist type - These are sovereigntists, in a misconceived and pre-dated sense, one which ignores the realities of and necessity for close geopolitical cooperation in the 21st century. Many in this category despise European integration for cultural reasons as demonstrated by their oft stated desire to strike up closer ties with the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.


This is a spectrum of course - some Brexiteers hold some characteristics of from types.

Econ__

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yes, but the transition was part of the December Agreement. If the backstop is not agreed, which the UK is saying that it cannot agree to, then there is no basis for transition.

Correct.

However, the EU is not ready for a crash out and so the likelihood is that a transition period will be given regardless of the agreement and it suits both sides to agree to it.

The EU are more ready for a crash out than the UK are (economically and politically).

If the EU (& Ireland) were to acquiesce to your point of view - what incentive would there be for the UK to honour their agreement over the backstop? They have capitulated many times before during the Article 50 process and most likely will do so again.

Econ__

EdgeCase wrote: »

So she's going to host a big unionist festival in Northern Ireland to calm things down after Brexit?

Are the Tories actually trying to cause conflict in the North? It's really starting to look like it.

It's getting to the stage that just being 'tone deaf', 'ignorant' and a 'bit thick' is really not cutting it as an excuse anymore. They are clearly out to deliberately cause problems.

You're talking about an area that is ultra sensitive about symbols of national identity and that has barely gotten out of one of the most violent conflicts in post WWII Western Europe and that still regularly has conflicts over things like flags and she's planning to dress the whole thing up in union jacks and have a bit of an old knees up and a few garden parties to celebrate the Union?

Utterly mad!

You might as well be suggesting that you stand in a bull ring waving a large red table cloth.

The proposed festival is for 2022, no? I thought I read somewhere it was a pre election plan.

Econ__

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

to take place in 2022.

Can kicked.

Except it's not. I just can't see it being regarded as inclusive up north, not celebrating Unionism enough on hand, rubbing salt on the other.

Sounds like a sweetner to help them get over the backstop that she will eventually sign.

May has form for this. She branded her new NHS investment plan as a Brexit 'dividend', weeks before announcing the Chequers proposal (loathed by Brexiteers). This was noted at the time as a carrot and stick approach.

LeinsterDub

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/29/britain-bill-brexit-hits-500-million-pounds-a-week

Half a billion pound a week to scuttle their own economy. Amazing how money can be found for madness like this but not to build infrastructure or improve frontline staff's wages

Charles Babbage

EdgeCase wrote: »

So she's going to host a big unionist festival in Northern Ireland to calm things down after Brexit?

Are the Tories actually trying to cause conflict in the North? It's really starting to look like it.

It's getting to the stage that just being 'tone deaf', 'ignorant' and a 'bit thick' is really not cutting it as an excuse anymore. They are clearly out to deliberately cause problems.

You're talking about an area that is ultra sensitive about symbols of national identity and that has barely gotten out of one of the most violent conflicts in post WWII Western Europe and that still regularly has conflicts over things like flags and she's planning to dress the whole thing up in union jacks and have a bit of an old knees up and a few garden parties to celebrate the Union?

Utterly mad!

You might as well be suggesting that you stand in a bull ring waving a large red table cloth.

I'm sure there are people in Carrickmore and Cullyhanna thinking of ideas for this already.

An Ciarraioch

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Theresa May announces Festival of Great Britain and NI plan

to take place in 2022.

Can kicked.

Except it's not. I just can't see it being regarded as inclusive up north, not celebrating Unionism enough on hand, rubbing salt on the other.

Even if one looks at Brexit through unionist eyes, it's hard to see how Foster is arguing for a soft Border - surely to have one, but be treated equally to the rest of the UK, the DUP should be pressing May to stay in the Customs Union, especially given the Westminster arithmetic? It is a legitimate criticism, however, to suggest that the Irish government should talk more to the Northern parties during the negotiations.

Rhineshark

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Even if one looks at Brexit through unionist eyes, it's hard to see how Foster is arguing for a soft Border - surely to have one, but be treated equally to the rest of the UK, the DUP should be pressing May to stay in the Customs Union, especially given the Westminster arithmetic? It is a legitimate criticism, however, to suggest that the Irish government should talk more to the Northern parties during the negotiations.

Except it isn't and they know it. Ireland is not conducting these talks unilaterally and it's definitely not with a regional gov (if one existed) in the UK, even to get the problem off May's desk. There is even less point in negotiating with individual parties.

For some mental reason the DUP seem to want both a hard Brexit and a border and are paranoid about RoI anyway. Sending Dublin to talk directly at Stormont is a monumental waste of time. Almost certainly as intended. Shades of "Stormont will have to pass it tee hee" tbh

Seth Brundle

David Davis has stopped taking his medication again...

There is a customs border there is a judicial border there’s a currency border. Those borders all operate invisibly. It doesn’t matter whether you carry a euro or pound, you can buy your drinks in Belfast in euros and you can buy in Dublin with pounds

https://twitter.com/RidgeOnSunday/status/1046332425410883584?s=19

https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/you-can-buy-your-drinks-in-belfast-in-euros-and-you-can-buy-in-dublin-with-pounds-former-brexit-secretary-david-davis-37369205.html

judeboy101

Seth Brundle wrote: »

David Davis has stopped taking his medication again...

https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/you-can-buy-your-drinks-in-belfast-in-euros-and-you-can-buy-in-dublin-with-pounds-former-brexit-secretary-david-davis-37369205.html

Where can you buy your drinks in Dublin with pounds?

Hurrache

So David Davis says the Irish government and the EU have exaggerated and oversimplified the border issue, and apparently you can go buy your drinks in Dublin using sterling.

https://twitter.com/RidgeOnSunday/status/1046329726955065345?s=09

Edit, I see the pound thing was mentioned in the Indo link already.

LeinsterDub

https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1045933569791725568

Great thread on the conference centre the tories will use for their conference. It got 50 million in European funds. Then goes on too outline the hundreds of millions the EU has invested in Birmingham.

RandomName2

Does anyone here know how we, and GB, solve the border issue with the Isle of Man? Is it that they're in a customs union despite not being in the EU?

LeinsterDub

RandomName2 wrote: »

Does anyone here know how we, and GB, solve the border issue with the Isle of Man? Is it that they're in a customs union despite not being in the EU?

They are in a custom union with the UK and as such the EU

Imreoir2

RandomName2 wrote: »

Does anyone here know how we, and GB, solve the border issue with the Isle of Man? Is it that they're in a customs union despite not being in the EU?

Seemingly the Isle of Man has special status as part of the EU customs territory without being in the EU.

BlitzKrieg

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Seemingly the Isle of Man has special status as part of the EU customs territory without being in the EU.

yeah that special status though comes with this phrase:

The Community rules on customs matters and quantitative restrictions, in particular those of
the Act of Accession, shall apply to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man under the same
conditions as they apply to the United Kingdom.

Meaning if the UK leaves or has their relationship with the EU changed then the Isle of Man and all channel isles will follow.

FunkyDa2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union

L1011

judeboy101 wrote: »

Where can you buy your drinks in Dublin with pounds?

I suspect that if anywhere, the Conservative Club might take them if you had nothing else on you but even then, probably not.

Rhineshark

L1011 wrote: »

I suspect that if anywhere, the Conservative Club might take them if you had nothing else on you but even then, probably not.

Probably get away with it in Dublin Airport but I doubt that's what Davis was going for.