Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Xenji

Xenji wrote: »

I finally finished the game last night and I will hold my hand up and say I really did struggle early on with the game, I have never had any issue with any other From game, but the first third of this was like hell and it took far longer to get through then it should of and I can see how newcomers could become daunted and frustrated by the challenge.

I do not think it is a difficultly issue though, these games are all about timing and something is off about this game in that regard, input lag seems to be quite erratic and the blocking button especially early on caused issues for me, I nearly had to compensate for a different amount of delay for different enemies.

What platform did you play it on?

petes

I did notice a bit of input lag on the ps4 or maybe it was me.

I do remember shouting at the controller saying I ****ing pressed that ha

Xenji

Deleted User wrote: »

What platform did you play it on?

PS4 Pro, I had some similar issues with Nioh till I changed to action mode.

petes

Never had an issue with Nioh, standard PS4

nix

The reason everybody has trouble in the early game is because they're still trying to play it like soulsborne, dodging and wailing in with R1. Where you need to do the opposite, spam L1 (or perfectly time it) until you get an opening and then hit R1 once, maybe twice and then its back on the defensive.

Unless you're fighting non humanoid enemies, then its a mix of L1 and R1 spamming

It's funny when you think about it, its like Miyazaki purposely done the combat this way not just because it made sense in a sword fighting way, but also to give the hardcore soulsborne players a taste of that difficulty they wouldnt have experienced since they played their first soulsborne game :pac:

K.O.Kiki

nix wrote: »

The reason everybody has trouble in the early game is because they're still trying to play it like soulsborne, dodging and wailing in with R1. Where you need to do the opposite, spam L1 (or perfectly time it) until you get an opening and then hit R1 once, maybe twice and then its back on the defensive.

Unless you're fighting non humanoid enemies, then its a mix of L1 and R1 spamming

It's funny when you think about it, its like Miyazaki purposely done the combat this way not just because it made sense in a sword fighting way, but also to give the hardcore soulsborne players a taste of that difficulty they wouldnt have experienced since they played their first soulsborne game :pac:

Agreed 100%

Once I stopped playing it like Dark Souls, and more like a Tenchu/Metal Gear Rising game, it became more intuitive.

E.g.

Blazing Bull is a PITA if you try to circle/avoid him.
Instead, I found out you can parry his charge, which stunlocks him for a second allowing 2-3 hits in addition to the parry's posture damage.

Likewise, I really got into Hollow Knight last night.
It only has 1 difficulty (medium-hard), and it's perfectly balanced around it.

Maxpfizer

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

My own opinion on the difficulty debate has shifted a bit in the last while, helped by the conversations that have popped up about Sekiro (also because of the prevalence of moronic 'git gud' comments one sees online when people are genuinely struggling to get to grips with a game).

How much does this influence your opinion on the topic of difficulty?

If it's one of the main factors in shifting your opinion then is that a valid reason why developers need to invest time and money on various difficulty options? Just because you want to spite the "git gud" crowd?

How often is this type of From Software game released? Maybe every 2 or 3 years? Out of all the games released year after year as soon as a single difficult one comes out we need this big debate about how it's not "accessible".

Then, throughout this accessibility debate, an awful lot of people on the "add an easy mode" side are throwing a noticeable amount shade at these "git gud" people.

How much of this "add an easy mode" stuff is stemming from the fact that people are simply annoyed that a few morons act like "elite gamers" or "hardcore gamers"?

I can agree that it's annoying but I don't agree that it's a good motivation for asking the developers to change their views on challenge and since it's the first thing you brought up it does seem to be one of the driving factors. It's the first place you went to.

Is it really worth it to put pressure on From, such that Sekiro 2 or Bloodborne 2 has difficulty options, just to get one over on the "git gud" crowd?

Maxpfizer

nix wrote: »

I'd bet my bottom dollar, if they start adding this sh!t to from software games. They will never be as fun or the same again, and the games community will take a nose dive and most discussion will always deteriorate to "what difficulty settings did you use?" And then majority of people lying about it..

If it aint broke, dont fix it. If you can't get passed a boss? Fix that, without cheating of course, cause thats what those kind of settings added would be..

Even in this thread here it's good to read the advice and all the different reactions.

All of that goes away when a decent % of the player base will just put the game on easy mode when they hit a wall instead of persevering or asking for advice etc.

Back in the days of stuff like Battletoads, and no internet forums, reddit etc, you could be forgiven for thinking that it's simply impossible to complete some games.

As it stands you can easily find helpful advice and tips all over the place and proof that not only is the game beatable but that some can do it without taking hits, without dying, new game +++, bell demon etc.

No need for From to make any changes at all.
If anything the unflinching challenge is one of the major selling points of their games.

I reckon this is the first From Software game that nailed the difficult. Funny that.

K.O.Kiki

Plus, half the mini-bosses are skip-able - just ninja your way past them.

I didn't even bother with Chained Ogre after my first death to him, came back to him 2hrs later.

petes

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I reckon this is the first From Software game that nailed the difficult. Funny that.

No, it hasn't!

johnny_ultimate

Maxpfizer wrote: »

How much does this influence your opinion on the topic of difficulty?

I would hope the many words I’ve written on the subject would suggest my thinking is far more influenced by wanting more people to experience these games than some sort of spite crusade against the ‘git gud’ crowd. The latter is certainly a symptom of the elitism and gatekeeping prevalent in some parts that I found distasteful. But far more than that I’ve been convinced by well-considered and articulate voices - developers and critics alike - that hard games can offer more options without sacrificing what people love about them.

And let me be clear: I think Sekiro is close to being From’s masterpiece. It’s in many ways the fairest game they’ve made, one or two difficulty spikes aside (that final boss is equally one of the most satisfying boss fights I’ve ever fought and one of the most maddening). I would highly encourage anyone to try and push through and get to grips with the game as is, as the rewards are many. At the same time, if there are a few entirely optional tweaks for players who genuinely hit a wall, that does nothing to impact my admiration for the game. If those options - which absolutely could be implemented, and likely in a more thoughtful way than I could possibly suggest given From’s record in this area - are what’s necessary to get people through... once again, the benefits outweigh the cons. I’ll continue to play the games intended, and I’m not going to dock them marks for not including these options. Merely that I think can and could be implemented, potentially opening these games’ many pleasures to more people.

petes

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I would hope the many words I’ve written on the subject would suggest my thinking is far more influenced by wanting more people to experience these games than some sort of spite crusade against the ‘git gud’ crowd. The latter is certainly a symptom of the elitism and gatekeeping prevalent in some parts that I found distasteful. But far more than that I’ve been convinced by well-considered and articulate voices - developers and critics alike - that hard games can offer more options without sacrificing what people love about them.

And let me be clear: I think Sekiro is close to being From’s masterpiece. It’s in many ways the fairest game they’ve made, one or two difficulty spikes aside (that final boss is equally one of the most satisfying boss fights I’ve ever fought and one of the most maddening). I would highly encourage anyone to try and push through and get to grips with the game as is, as the rewards are many. At the same time, if there are a few entirely optional tweaks for players who genuinely hit a wall, that does nothing to impact my admiration for the game. If those options - which absolutely could be implemented, and likely in a more thoughtful way than I could possibly suggest given From’s record in this area - are what’s necessary to get people through... once again, the benefits outweigh the cons. I’ll continue to play the games intended, and I’m not going to dock them marks for not including these options. Merely that I think can and could be implemented, potentially opening these games’ many pleasures to more people.

Seriously I will read what you wrote but do you ever just say..ok..:)

johnny_ultimate

petes wrote: »

Seriously I will read what you wrote but do you ever just say..ok..:)

I’m down to two paragraphs... progress is progress :pac:

petes

petes wrote: »

No, it hasn't!

Which is better? Why?

mirrormatrix

Hey, so i'm getting into the fight with Great Shinobi Owl now and struggling a bit on strategy. Have been trying to get up in his face like I did with Genichiro, but he is absolutely destroying my posture.

Are you just supposed to run around the ring avoiding him and then take potshots after some of his attacks?

petes

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Hey, so i'm getting into the fight with Great Shinobi Owl now and struggling a bit on strategy. Have been trying to get up in his face like I did with Genichiro, but he is absolutely destroying my posture.

Are you just supposed to run around the ring avoiding him and then take potshots after some of his attacks?

Hit when he drops poison, also get a couple in to his jumping attack, throws two shurikens first

SomeSayKos

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Hey, so i'm getting into the fight with Great Shinobi Owl now and struggling a bit on strategy. Have been trying to get up in his face like I did with Genichiro, but he is absolutely destroying my posture.

Are you just supposed to run around the ring avoiding him and then take potshots after some of his attacks?

Here's a good tactic I've used to beat him a few times using parrying for defense and Ichimonji for offensive hits ( as well as regaining posture ).
When he comes at you deflect his hits, if you can strike a couple of times before he deflects you then do. Keep moving throughout the fight. You want to bait his attack where he throws a couple of shurikens and then jumps with a slash down. When he jumps at you dodge to the side and do an Ichimonji strike. Keep repeating this process. When he throws the bomb to stop you healing run behind him and get another Ichimonji in.

The second phase you wanna pretty much do the same thing. He'll throw poison at you but this isn't really much of an issue if you can avoid it, but event then poison damage isnt too bad in the game and you'll prbably have some antidotes at this stage of the game anyways.
-
This is a pretty defensive tactic, and as a result the fight will go on for around 7 mins if you play it like this. Try and be aggresive when you can until he parrys you and then defend those hits and get some space.

SomeSayKos

Ichimonji is great because it does decent damage and posture damage but also regains your posture. Very good for the later bosses

nix

If you hold up your guard (hold L1/LB) your posture will recover very fast, but only do it when hes doing some form of attack as if you do it when the enemy is just walking about also, his posture recovers a good bit also, when not doing that, always be up in his grill.

Also a good skill to use is "Ichimonji", especially with the double upgrade, it pretty much recovers all your posture when used, i only started using it in the last boss fight and was annoyed i hadn't been using it from the get go as its insanely good.

johnny_ultimate

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Hey, so i'm getting into the fight with Great Shinobi Owl now and struggling a bit on strategy. Have been trying to get up in his face like I did with Genichiro, but he is absolutely destroying my posture.

Are you just supposed to run around the ring avoiding him and then take potshots after some of his attacks?

It is mostly another 'get up in his face' fight, but also one where you need to know when to get out of there and take a breather. The 'healing block' move seems annoying at first, but they're easily avoidable and actually your best chance to get in a few hits or heal up your posture bar. I think the 'run around' approach will be pretty painful, so definitely focus on deflects - it's not one you can easily rush through in terms of building up posture damage, but sustained pressure will get you there in the end Also a good opportunity to practice dodging - it's probably the best boss until the last one to get comfortable with dodge timing.

SomeSayKos

What are peoples favourite bosses then?

SomeSayKos

SomeSayKos wrote: »

What are peoples favourite bosses then?

The flaming bull, purely because I was streaming and beat him first time while a friend was watching, who had a lot of trouble with him :pac:

petes

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Which is better? Why?

Had a few beers yesterday and not entirely sure what my reasoning was so apologies

petes

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The flaming bull, purely because I was streaming and beat him first time while a friend was watching, who had a lot of trouble with him :pac:

I had a fair amount of trouble with him, partly due to the area you fight him

petes

Fav is probably genichiro or the owl

Once you have it down they are great fights

johnny_ultimate

Genichiro and the Owl represent the game at its absolute best. They're two duels where you feel you're fighting a master swordsman, but the balance is such that it feels both fighters have the tools to switch the flow of the fight at any moment. The last fight, in contrast, sometimes feels like the dials are tipped in the boss's favour rather than yours. But Genichiro and the Owl are excellent tests of the player's knowledge of the mechanics.

I have something of a soft spot for Oniwa as I love the spectacle of the fight - the setting, his entrance and the growing confidence that you have the tools to overcome this much larger, hard-hitting foe. Perfectly judged first major boss battle.

mirrormatrix

nix wrote: »

If you hold up your guard (hold L1/LB) your posture will recover very fast, but only do it when hes doing some form of attack as if you do it when the enemy is just walking about also, his posture recovers a good bit also, when not doing that, always be up in his grill.

Also a good skill to use is "Ichimonji", especially with the double upgrade, it pretty much recovers all your posture when used, i only started using it in the last boss fight and was annoyed i hadn't been using it from the get go as its insanely good.

Hang on.... ichimonji recovers posture??? Jesus, i should really try out some of those skills. Have only ever used whirlwind slash

sweetie

Ah lads, got Genichiro to third deathblow then missed it. Jesus wept..

Edit: got him couple tries later

petes

sweetie wrote: »

Ah lads, got Genichiro to third deathblow then missed it. Jesus wept..

Edit: got him couple tries later

Happened me a few times on other bosses