The Irish Language and Unionists

deise go deo · 06-09-2011 3:02pm #1

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0901/breaking38.html

A relative of the former loyalist leader David Ervine has revealed she has started to learn the Irish language. Linda Ervine, whose husband Brian recently stepped down as leader of the UVF-aligned Progressive Unionist Party, began her studies through a cross-community project. But while Irish has traditionally been associated with the Catholic community, the 49-year-old said she was struck by research that showed how her Protestant ancestors also spoke the tongue.

The East Belfast teacher said more Protestants were becoming aware of their community’s historic links to the language and wanted to see it freed of its political baggage. Her brother-in-law, David Ervine, who died four years ago, was a former UVF prisoner who later came to international prominence through his support for the peace process and his efforts to develop a political voice for loyalism. But Mrs Ervine said her family history was an encouragement rather than a hindrance to taking up Irish. “People may not be aware that David learned Irish while he was in prison,” she said. “The first Irish I heard was from Brian, who knew it from place names, which always interested me. “I suppose people might find it unusual, given my background, but, there you go.” She said much of the Protestant community’s link to Irish, including the role of Presbyterians in preserving and protecting the language centuries ago, had been forgotten. “I think it’s very sad people don’t know that. That has been lost,” she said.

“I feel that because the language has been politicised, sadly, it has been seen to belong to one community, which is nonsense.
“The language belongs to all the people of Northern Ireland.”

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/police-sign-up-for-irish-lessons-16045560.html

More than 100 police officers were among the first to sign-up to learn Irish after the launch of a new project to boost the language.
Representatives of the sporting bodies for gaelic games, football and rugby also joined Culture Minister Caral Ni Chuilin at Stormont to launch the plan to create 1,000 new Irish speakers by 2015.

Minister Ni Chuilin said: "I recognise that some have over many years sought to portray the promotion of Gaelic culture and the Irish language as in some way threatening and as the preserve of one section of our community. This approach needs to be challenged.
"I want us to reach a position where the Irish language is learnt, spoken and enjoyed by people of all backgrounds and traditions.
Therefore today I launched the Liofa 2015 Initiative

Ulster Unionist Basil McCrea also attended the launch of Liofa 2015, which is being billed as a bid to take the language away from the political divisions of the past.

"We are keen that it is de-politicised," he said. "The only way to do that is through engagement, which is why we are here. It is worth saying that in the past there were lots of Presbyterians, Church of Ireland, a lot of Scots that were involved in the whole thing as well."

I think its great that Unionists in the north have the courage to come forward and engadge with the Irish Language, in the past those with an interest in the language would often be afraid to engadge with it because of its assocation with the nationalist community and fear of being seen as not being 'a propper prod'.

I think the reference by Sinn Fein's Caral Ni Chuilin to the Irish Language being protrayed by some as ''threatening and as the preserve of one section of our community'' was interesting as in the past it was most often Sinn Fein who did most to creat that impression. The oft quoted line ''every word spoken in Irish is another bullet in the freedom struggle'' came from Sinn Fein's Danny Morrison.

HellsAngel · 06-09-2011 3:25pm

deise go deo wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0901/breaking38.html

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/police-sign-up-for-irish-lessons-16045560.html

I think its great that Unionists in the north have the courage to come forward and engadge with the Irish Language, in the past those with an interest in the language would often be afraid to engadge with it because of its assocation with the nationalist community and fear of being seen as not being 'a propper prod'.

I think the reference by Sinn Fein's Caral Ni Chuilin to the Irish Language being protrayed by some as ''threatening and as the preserve of one section of our community'' was interesting as in the past it was most often Sinn Fein who did most to creat that impression. The oft quoted line ''every word spoken in Irish is another bullet in the freedom struggle'' came from Sinn Fein's Danny Morrison.

I Googled for that from Danny Morrison and only got the Traditional Unionist Voice* crediting that to him " Consider also the words of Sinn Fein’s Danny Morrison who once observed that every word spoken in Irish is “another bullet in the freedom struggle”

I certainly wouldn't list the TUV as a reliable source on quotes from senior Sinn Fein members.

If you Google the sentence without Morrison in it you get " A prominent member of Sinn Féin, who is also an Irish language activist, has been quoted as saying ‘Every word of Irish spoken is like another bullet being fired in the struggle for Irish freedom ** "

My point been that this seems to be a very divisive and dubious quote indeed.

* http://www.tuv.org.uk/press-releases/view/822/tuv-conference-2010---kaye-kilpatrick-on-education

** http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/language/oreilly97.htm

deise go deo · 06-09-2011 4:09pm

HellsAngel wrote: »

I Googled for that from Danny Morrison and only got the Traditional Unionist Voice* crediting that to him " Consider also the words of Sinn Fein’s Danny Morrison who once observed that every word spoken in Irish is “another bullet in the freedom struggle” I certainly wouldn't list the TUV as a reliable source on quotes from senior Sinn Fein members.

If you Google the sentence without Morrison in it you get " A prominent member of Sinn Féin, who is also an Irish language activist, has been quoted as saying ‘Every word of Irish spoken is like another bullet being fired in the struggle for Irish freedom ** "

My point been that this seems to be a very divisive and dubious quote indeed.

It is certainly a very devicive quote, but Hardly dubious, it has long been associated with Sinn Fein's stance on the Irish language, If it was not Danny Morrison who said it then I withdraw that, I agree that the TUV are not to be relyed on for accuracy when it comes to talking about anything to do with SF, but I dont think there can be any real doubt that the quote came from Sinn Fein, even if not officially.

Alopex · 06-09-2011 4:18pm

It should be for everyone. What does piss off protestants is sometimes you get people showing up at parties and speaking Irish within a group scenario. Basically like whispering because most of us don't learn it in school. I wouldn't speak German in that situation unless everyone could.

It comes across as exclusive when done that way (it annoys nationalists who don't speak it too)

HellsAngel · 06-09-2011 4:22pm

deise go deo wrote: »

It is certainly a very devicive quote, but Hardly dubious, it has long been associated with Sinn Fein's stance on the Irish language, If it was not Danny Morrison who said it then I withdraw that, I agree that the TUV are not to be relyed on for accuracy when it comes to talking about anything to do with SF, but I dont think there can be any real doubt that the quote came from Sinn Fein, even if not officially.

I know your a decent nationalist deise, but in fairness, a " prominent member of Sinn Féin " isn't a reliable source. The reason it got my attention is I know that Morrison is quite a sharp guy, doubt if he would have said ''every word spoken in Irish is another bullet in the freedom struggle'' as it would give the enemies of the language plenty of ammunition - if you'll pardon the pun !!!

HellsAngel · 06-09-2011 4:26pm

Alopex wrote: »

It should be for everyone. What does piss off protestants is sometimes you get people showing up at parties and speaking Irish within a group scenario. Basically like whispering because most of us don't learn it in school. I wouldn't speak German in that situation unless everyone could.

It comes across as exclusive when done that way (it annoys nationalists who don't speak it too)

The founder of Conradh na Gaeilge ( Gaelic League ) was a Protestant, Douglas Hyde. Also became the first President of Ireland.

But yes, I can understand your feelings about it coming across as exclusive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Hyde#Conradh_na_Gaedhilge

Prop Joe · 06-09-2011 4:34pm

Alopex wrote: »

It should be for everyone. What does piss off protestants is sometimes you get people showing up at parties and speaking Irish within a group scenario. Basically like whispering because most of us don't learn it in school. I wouldn't speak German in that situation unless everyone could.

It comes across as exclusive when done that way (it annoys nationalists who don't speak it too)

suppose it pisses you off when polish speak there native language aswell...

deise go deo · 06-09-2011 4:34pm

HellsAngel wrote: »

I know your a decent nationalist deise, but in fairness, a " prominent member of Sinn Féin " isn't a reliable source. The reason it got my attention is I know that Morrison is quite a sharp guy, doubt if he would have said ''every word spoken in Irish is another bullet in the freedom struggle'' as it would give the enemies of the language plenty of ammunition - if you'll pardon the pun !!!

The book you are talking about is a very well written study into the Irish language in NI, It was written by people who are deeply involved in promoting the language in various ways, it's possible that someone involved in promoting the language may not like Sinn Fein, and atributed the quote to them to make them look bad, but to be fair that seams unlikely, the quote is almost exclucivly atributed to Sinn Fein. I can't prove Sinn Fein, or someone in Sinn Fein came up with it, but to be honnest it seams very probable. It fits in well with their more bombastic rethoric of the troubels.

It's nice to see them moving away from that kind of thing twords more inclucive ideas about the language, but I dont think I am being unfair to say that they are responcible for much of the damage done to the image of the language in Unionist communities in the past.

Alopex · 06-09-2011 4:39pm

Prop Joe wrote: »

suppose it pisses you off when polish speak there native language aswell...

if they were at a party with a group of english speakers yeah it would. Know two Lithuanian girls they speak English when they're with us.

LordSutch · 06-09-2011 4:40pm

I get the impression that a lot of Unionists dont mind the Irish language being taught, spoken and used by those who wish to. I think the problem with the Irish language movement is when the compulsory nature of its teaching creeps into society, not that its compulsory in the North, but the fear among many Unionists is that if Sinn Fein got their way it would be compulsive, ala the South!

AhSureTisGrand · 06-09-2011 4:41pm

My understanding is Ian Paisley has always disliked the language because it doesn't have a word for "no".

The Scientician · 06-09-2011 4:41pm

Alopex wrote: »

It should be for everyone. What does piss off protestants is sometimes you get people showing up at parties and speaking Irish within a group scenario. Basically like whispering because most of us don't learn it in school. I wouldn't speak German in that situation unless everyone could.

It comes across as exclusive when done that way (it annoys nationalists who don't speak it too)

Nothing to do with politics that. Cliqueishness rears its head with a lot of things. Although the last time I was in Belfast I had a conversation in Irish with someone at a party. Maybe I'm guilty of it too. Well not really, I was mainly speaking as Bearla.

Godge · 06-09-2011 5:03pm

LordSutch wrote: »

I get the impression that a lot of Unionists dont mind the Irish language being taught, spoken and used by those who wish to. I think the problem with the Irish language movement is when the compulsory nature of its teaching creeps into society, not that its compulsory in the North, but the fear among many Unionists is that if Sinn Fein got their way it would be compulsive, ala the South!

I agree, the compulsory nature and exclusivity of the language are the biggest barriers to acceptance.

It would also be nice if people from Dublin or Cork took a reciprocal interest in Ulster Scots.

belacqua_ · 06-09-2011 5:15pm

Godge wrote: »

It would also be nice if people from Dublin or Cork took a reciprocal interest in Ulster Scots.

That might happen when people in Northern Ireland begin taking Ulster Scots seriously.

Northern (Unionist) politicians could learn a thing from the Scots' Gaelic language policy, people like Gregory Campbell must be very confused when they visit North Britain, turn on the TV and find themselves watching BBC Alba. I wonder if he'd be as quick to ridicule the language in the Scottish Parliament. It's encouraging to hear something positive from Basil McCrea and the UUP for a change.

Alopex · 06-09-2011 5:29pm

belacqua_ wrote: »

That might happen when people in Northern Ireland begin taking Ulster Scots seriously.

Northern (Unionist) politicians could learn a thing from the Scot's Gaelic language policy, people like Geoffrey Donaldson must be very confused when they visit North Britain, turn on the TV and find themselves watching BBC Alba. I wonder if he'd be as quick to ridicule the language in the Scottish Parliament. It's encouraging to hear something positive from Basil McCrea and the UUP for a change.

Jesus don't be giving people ideas like that. We waste enough money to be teaching an accent in school

People in Northern Ireland realise Ulster Scots/Scots isn't a language.

For example the Ulster-Scots for Northern Ireland is "Norlinn Arlann"
You're probably already a fluent speaker of it.

Don't think there's a BBC Scots channel now is there?

KeithAFC · 06-09-2011 6:25pm

Seems like some Protestant Unionists are trying to reclaim the language back which has a big history in Protestantism.

Perhaps it might grow back to large numbers if many more Protestants from the unionist community learn it. Could become as normal as the auld orange flute

paul71 · 06-09-2011 7:27pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Seems like some Protestant Unionists are trying to reclaim the language back which has a big history in Protestantism.

Perhaps it might grow back to large numbers if many more Protestants from the unionist community learn it. Could become as normal as the auld orange flute

It is actually true, Irish was the first language of many tens of thousands of Unionists farmers in Cork, Laois, Offaly, Donegal and the urban unionists in western towns like Galway, and Sligo in the 19th century. In fact the early 20th century revival effort was lead to a great extent by the southern Protestants in particular by COI clerics.

The Scientician · 06-09-2011 7:29pm

Alopex wrote: »

Jesus don't be giving people ideas like that. We waste enough money to be teaching an accent in school

People in Northern Ireland realise Ulster Scots/Scots isn't a language.

For example the Ulster-Scots for Northern Ireland is "Norlinn Arlann"
You're probably already a fluent speaker of it.

Don't think there's a BBC Scots channel now is there?

My cousin got her census form in Ulster Scots. I never laughed sae mooch. :pac: Here's a hole, throw some money in it.

That's tee sae, ahm all fer the Ulster Scotch leid been spake doon in Dublin.

Rebelheart · 06-09-2011 7:37pm

Alopex wrote: »

What does piss off protestants [and you speak on behalf of them?] is sometimes you get people showing up at parties and speaking Irish within a group scenario.

Alopex wrote: »

if they were at a party with a group of english speakers yeah it would.

Indeed. The last thing we English speakers can tolerate is Irish people speaking Irish in Ireland. How rude of them to us, the new conquerors of Ireland. They should change language just to appease our ignorance and intolerance of native Irish culture.

And that, when all is said and done, is about the long and the short of the mentality with which we are dealing.

dlofnep · 06-09-2011 7:44pm

It's heartwarming to see unionists getting behind to Líofa campaign. I would really like to see the language completely depoliticised, and the Líofa campaign appears to be a good step forward to accomplishing that.

Gaeilge was spoken by a huge array of unionists. Many of those who came from Scotland to Ireland during the plantations would have spoken Gaidhlig, which is only a small jump away from Gaeilge. Infact, Rathlin Island was the last place in Ireland that bridged both Gaeilge and Gaidhlig together.

Unionists are starting to educate themselves about their own history and realise that we have much more in common with each other, than differences. I see this as a positive step forward.

Richard · 06-09-2011 7:45pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Seems like some Protestant Unionists are trying to reclaim the language back which has a big history in Protestantism.

Perhaps it might grow back to large numbers if many more Protestants from the unionist community learn it. Could become as normal as the auld orange flute

Tá sé d'aois ach tá sé go hálainn, agus a chuid dathanna go bhfuil siad fíneáil
Bhí sé caite ag Doire, Eachroim, Inis Ceithleann agus na Bóinne.
M'athair chaith sé mar óige i laethanta atá thart yore,
Agus ar an Déag Is breá liom a chaitheamh ar an saise chaith m'athair.

dlofnep · 06-09-2011 7:46pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Seems like some Protestant Unionists are trying to reclaim the language back which has a big history in Protestantism.

Perhaps it might grow back to large numbers if many more Protestants from the unionist community learn it. Could become as normal as the auld orange flute

Would you be willing to give it an effort Keith? I'd be more than happy to send you material if you wanted to learn. My treat. I've a few books and CD's laying around here that are too basic for myself. The offer is there anytime. You can have them for free - I'll even cover the postage

KeithAFC · 06-09-2011 7:59pm

As you know, i am sceptical of the language in terms of road signs and is it worth the money? But it depends how it is taught and if all political agendas can be left out of it. Then perhaps many more people from the Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist community might learn it and even indulge in it.

steddyeddy · 06-09-2011 8:19pm

Well its nice to see the Irish langauge been spoken by those who want to speak it. I dont think it has anything to do with religion though or the religion of the speaker.

steddyeddy · 06-09-2011 8:21pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Would you be willing to give it an effort Keith? I'd be more than happy to send you material if you wanted to learn. My treat. I've a few books and CD's laying around here that are too basic for myself. The offer is there anytime. You can have them for free - I'll even cover the postage

Im joining the irish langauge society in ucd to try and refresh my memory. I can hold a basic conversation it it but it would be nice to become fluent in it.

dlofnep · 06-09-2011 8:33pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Im joining the irish langauge society in ucd to try and refresh my memory. I can hold a basic conversation it it but it would be nice to become fluent in it.

Fluency takes quite a long time - but it only takes a year or two to become a competent speaker. Stick at it

Use it or lose it.

Alopex · 06-09-2011 9:05pm

Rebelheart wrote: »

Indeed. The last thing we English speakers can tolerate is Irish people speaking Irish in Ireland. How rude of them to us, the new conquerors of Ireland. They should change language just to appease our ignorance and intolerance of native Irish culture.

And that, when all is said and done, is about the long and the short of the mentality with which we are dealing.

Sigh. I'm just telling you how it comes across to people who don't speak it in certain circumstances.

Richard · 06-09-2011 10:40pm

Richard wrote: »

Tá sé d'aois ach tá sé go hálainn, agus a chuid dathanna go bhfuil siad fíneáil
Bhí sé caite ag Doire, Eachroim, Inis Ceithleann agus na Bóinne.
M'athair chaith sé mar óige i laethanta atá thart yore,
Agus ar an Déag Is breá liom a chaitheamh ar an saise chaith m'athair.

By the way, I used http://www.stars21.com/translator/english_to_irish.html to translate "The Sash". I've no idea whether the translation is any good, although it seems to have got the place names right.

woodoo · 06-09-2011 11:35pm

Richard wrote: »

Tá sé d'aois ach tá sé go hálainn, agus a chuid dathanna go bhfuil siad fíneáil
Bhí sé caite ag Doire, Eachroim, Inis Ceithleann agus na Bóinne.
M'athair chaith sé mar óige i laethanta atá thart yore,
Agus ar an Déag Is breá liom a chaitheamh ar an saise chaith m'athair.

If it wasn't compulsory i would probably have taken more of an interest in it at school. As it was Irish was a torture at school. Taught in a boring strict manner.

I spent 13 years supposedly learning Irish at school and i don't have a clue what Richard has said in the above post.

Alopex · 07-09-2011 12:22am

woodoo wrote: »

If it wasn't compulsory i would probably have taken more of an interest in it at school. As it was Irish was a torture at school. Taught in a boring strict manner.

I spent 13 years supposedly learning Irish at school and i don't have a clue what Richard has said in the above post.

Hehehe I know what it means. you just got pwned at irish by a unionist:cool:

dlofnep · 07-09-2011 1:58am

Richard wrote: »

By the way, I used http://www.stars21.com/translator/english_to_irish.html to translate "The Sash". I've no idea whether the translation is any good, although it seems to have got the place names right.

All online translators are terrible when it comes to Irish. They use statistical based translations, based on founds found online. It works better with languages like french and spanish who are widely found online - but smaller languages like irish and welsh and the likes don't have very good translations.

The Irish Language and Unionists

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