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Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51
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Can you point towards another successful out of town stadium in Ireland?
Redevelopment of existing urban sites seems to be the accepted norm across all sports in Ireland - presumably there is a good reason for this.
in Ireland or in the world?
Ireland isnt the only place where sport and socialising combine. This isnt a unique GAA problem and therefore doesnt require a unique GAA solution.
Off the top of my head; The Allianz Arena (Bayern Munch), the Lincoln Financial field (Philadelphia eagles) - closer to home the Britianna Stadium (Stoke City) have all been redeveloped and relocated from built up urban areas in last 10-15 years, i have visited all of these stadia on Match days.
You drink eat do whatever in your city centre and you hop on specific match day transport, buses, tubes, light rail to and from the arena.
This same phenomena occurs in other sports like horse racing - Cheltenham a city that doubles in size for the festival annually, motor sports etc.
If you think bringing match day traffic, cars etc into built up areas is a good idea, crack ahead, it probably goes against every single trend & international recommendation, green or otherwise.
But hey, its what we always did and thats always worked a treat.
Ill post a thread up here later on Walsh Park - gate to date.0 -
thesaturdayman wrote: »in Ireland or in the world?
Ireland isnt the only place where sport and socialising combine. This isnt a unique GAA problem and therefore doesnt require a unique GAA solution.
Off the top of my head; The Allianz Arena (Bayern Munch), the Lincoln Financial field (Philadelphia eagles) - closer to home the Britianna Stadium (Stoke City) have all been redeveloped and relocated from built up urban areas in last 10-15 years, i have visited all of these stadia on Match days.
You drink eat do whatever in your city centre and you hop on specific match day transport, buses, tubes, light rail to and from the arena.
This same phenomena occurs in other sports like horse racing - Cheltenham a city that doubles in size for the festival annually, motor sports etc.
If you think bringing match day traffic, cars etc into built up areas is a good idea, crack ahead, it probably goes against every single trend & international recommendation, green or otherwise.
But hey, its what we always did and thats always worked a treat.
Ill post a thread up here later on Walsh Park - gate to date.
That's why I said Ireland twice. I've been to Cheltenham and Munich and everyone scatters after the event.
Lansdowne Road, Pairc Ui Chaiomh, Thomond Park, Showgrounds in Galway, Fitzgerald Stadium, Croke Park, RDS - the list goes on and they've all redeveloped the existing site rather than greenfield.
If you have an urban site you can actually have less people driving. More people live there already, and public transport goes there. Carriganore would require everyone to drive.0 -
That's why I said Ireland twice. I've been to Cheltenham and Munich and everyone scatters after the event.
Lansdowne Road, Pairc Ui Chaiomh, Thomond Park, Showgrounds in Galway, Fitzgerald Stadium, Croke Park, RDS - the list goes on and they've all redeveloped the existing site rather than greenfield.
so in Cheltenham you wish for every punter to huddle into one pub is it?
There is 110k people live in chelt, on race days 60-70 attend the meeting. there are huge urban areas within 60 mins by rail or motorway - Bristol / Birmingham.
There is 60k live in Waterford city urban area, within 60-80 minutes by rail or motorway are huge urban areas such as Cork / Dublin (biggest and second biggest cities in the country, which are growing faster then most).
The days of fellas landing in have 10 stout, waddling into the match are long gone.
all the grounds you speak have hosted many events other then GAA - or show jumping or their "home sport" concerts are huge revenue drivers but then again our gombeens completely dismiss the idea....
Waterford will never progress with the current extras from Jurassic Park at the wheel.
Liam Cahill might get a tune out of the players, but it is plastering over the cracks, the business model is non existent & a modern multi functional stadium is absolutely central to that model.
It is an investment in the infrastructure that will drive revenue and not something we have to do because there is public pressure and our house hasnt been in order for decades.0 -
thesaturdayman wrote: »so in Cheltenham you wish for every punter to huddle into one pub is it?
There is 110k people live in chelt, on race days 60-70 attend the meeting. there are huge urban areas within 60 mins by rail or motorway - Bristol / Birmingham.
There is 60k live in Waterford city urban area, within 60-80 minutes by rail or motorway are huge urban areas such as Cork / Dublin (biggest and second biggest cities in the country, which are growing faster then most).
The days of fellas landing in have 10 stout, waddling into the match are long gone.
all the grounds you speak have hosted many events other then GAA - or show jumping or their "home sport" concerts are huge revenue drivers but then again our gombeens completely dismiss the idea....
Waterford will never progress with the current extras from Jurassic Park at the wheel.
Liam Cahill might get a tune out of the players, but it is plastering over the cracks, the business model is non existent & a modern multi functional stadium is absolutely central to that model.
It is an investment in the infrastructure that will drive revenue and not something we have to do because there is public pressure and our house hasnt been in order for decades.
No I scattered to Bristol afterwards because it's a nicer city with more accommodation!
If you think the days of supporters going in after a pint is gone you haven't been to Croker or Thomond recently - both have bars in the stadium and around it. Even Thurles is a 10 minute walk to the train station and the bars are rammed before and afterwards.
To repeat, a site like Carriganore involves pretty much everyone driving. No buzz in town before or afterwards. And I'm pretty sure it's a more expensive solution to develop greenfield sites.
The only clubs who go this route either renting council pitches in town and are forced to the outskirts to find a long term option, or don't have big enough sites in town and are forced out for more space. DLS and Roanmore would be great examples of that.
Waterford in pursuing this option would be swimming against the tide of every stadium redevelopment project in Ireland in GAA, soccer or rugby.0 -
Mount Sion and Roanmore made a good bit from the Walsh Park Munster Championship games this year and had food/entertainment etc on. I'm sure the pubs on Barrack Street done well too. Its was a pleasure to have a pint before and after the games and not worry about driving home (obv some still have to drive). The City centre/john street is not overly far away from Walsh Park (u prob actually do a similar walk from the Square in Thurles to Semple). The 2pm starts were a small issue and maybe having next years games at 4pm might be better
The no concert idea for the new Waslh Park is deff a mistake when u see places like Nowlan Park/Semple Stadium getting concerts and are situated in a residential area0 -
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Can you point towards another successful out of town stadium in Ireland?
Redevelopment of existing urban sites seems to be the accepted norm across all sports in Ireland - presumably there is a good reason for this.
It’s the norm in most countries. If you have ever attended a sports event in a stadium on the outskirts of a major city such as those in many is states you would realise how soulless and dull it is.....Walsh Park unfortunately isn’t located in a city centre location so it’s not that great but in saying that it is well within walking distance of the city centre....talks of shuttle busses to a Carriganoir pitch is just fantasy stuff......would mercer happen. Who would pay for them etc.......0 -
thesaturdayman wrote: »in Ireland or in the world?
Ireland isnt the only place where sport and socialising combine. This isnt a unique GAA problem and therefore doesnt require a unique GAA solution.
Off the top of my head; The Allianz Arena (Bayern Munch), the Lincoln Financial field (Philadelphia eagles) - closer to home the Britianna Stadium (Stoke City) have all been redeveloped and relocated from built up urban areas in last 10-15 years, i have visited all of these stadia on Match days.
You drink eat do whatever in your city centre and you hop on specific match day transport, buses, tubes, light rail to and from the arena.
This same phenomena occurs in other sports like horse racing - Cheltenham a city that doubles in size for the festival annually, motor sports etc.
If you think bringing match day traffic, cars etc into built up areas is a good idea, crack ahead, it probably goes against every single trend & international recommendation, green or otherwise.
But hey, its what we always did and thats always worked a treat.
Ill post a thread up here later on Walsh Park - gate to date.
Have to say I would totally disagree with you view above0 -
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Concerts again? Really? Last October the Gaelic Grounds hosted The National Geographic Symphony for Our World. Oh how they gushed about "the full-to-capacity Mackey Stand, the crowd...made up of families of adults and children of all ages, couples and groups of friends", and how the "overall socio-economic boost for the city over the course of the weekend was estimated to be in excess of 4.5 million". Wind forward to February and the Limerick County Board were (subs) dragging their feet on repaying a €150,000 loan from the council for the event because - wait for it - "While the concert itself was a promotional success sadly we had a financial loss in respect of it, which left us in a short-term difficulty". If only they'd built a new venue on a greenfields site. Yes, I'm sure that's what went wrong.0
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It’s the norm in most countries. If you have ever attended a sports event in a stadium on the outskirts of a major city such as those in many is states you would realise how soulless and dull it is.....Walsh Park unfortunately isn’t located in a city centre location so it’s not that great but in saying that it is well within walking distance of the city centre....talks of shuttle busses to a Carriganoir pitch is just fantasy stuff......would mercer happen. Who would pay for them etc.......
Walsh Park is City center in terms of a stadium location, it's closer to the City center than any of Croke Park, Pairc Ui Chaoimh or the Gaelic Grounds. It's at least a 20 minute walk from High Street in Kilkenny to Nowlan Park as well and that I would say is as city center as you can get with a stadium.
You're not going to have a stadium in the middle of the main shopping district.0 -
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Concerts again? Really? Last October the Gaelic Grounds hosted The National Geographic Symphony for Our World. Oh how they gushed about "the full-to-capacity Mackey Stand, the crowd...made up of families of adults and children of all ages, couples and groups of friends", and how the "overall socio-economic boost for the city over the course of the weekend was estimated to be in excess of 4.5 million". Wind forward to February and the Limerick County Board were (subs) dragging their feet on repaying a €150,000 loan from the council for the event because - wait for it - "While the concert itself was a promotional success sadly we had a financial loss in respect of it, which left us in a short-term difficulty". If only they'd built a new venue on a greenfields site. Yes, I'm sure that's what went wrong.
Yea. Really. Westlife 200k per gig for Cork GAA.
We can’t make 20 grand off a golf classic.0 -
It was great there for a week when the messages were somewhat positive, focusing on matches and news, but here we are again back to the super interesting “Walsh Park location” debate/exercise in proving I’m right in the most aggressive way possible, whilst also spending my time cutting the county board.0
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thesaturdayman wrote: »Yea. Really. Westlife 200k per gig for Cork GAA.
We can’t make 20 grand off a golf classic.
I wouldnt be looking enviously at Cork
200K isnt a whole lot when you consider the cost of redeveloping PUC spiralled from €86m to an estimated €110m0 -
Extract from Deise in Dublin
End of Year Update
As we approach the end of 2019, Déise in Dublin wish to thank all our members and sponsors for their support during the year.
Some of our key 2019 financial support for Waterford GAA teams is outlined below:
Senior hurlers sponsorship - €7,000
Camogie sponsorship - €3,250
Bord na nÓg annual sponsorship - €2,500
Ladies football - €2,500
Deise in Dublin do very good work in supporting our teams in Waterford. But for me we don't tap in half enough to people and businesses associated with Waterford.
The majority of clubs in Waterford would raise the above on there own to survive the year. Not sure what Club Deise raise a year.
After getting Liam Cahill on board the next step should be to appoint a commercial manager to drive fundraising.0 -
enoughtaken wrote: »Extract from Deise in Dublin
End of Year Update
As we approach the end of 2019, Déise in Dublin wish to thank all our members and sponsors for their support during the year.
Some of our key 2019 financial support for Waterford GAA teams is outlined below:
Senior hurlers sponsorship - €7,000
Camogie sponsorship - €3,250
Bord na nÓg annual sponsorship - €2,500
Ladies football - €2,500
Deise in Dublin do very good work in supporting our teams in Waterford. But for me we don't tap in half enough to people and businesses associated with Waterford.
The majority of clubs in Waterford would raise the above on there own to survive the year. Not sure what Club Deise raise a year.
After getting Liam Cahill on board the next step should be to appoint a commercial manager to drive fundraising.
Strange that they support everything but men's football.0 -
A lot of talk about Dessie Hutchinson lately. I haven’t seen him play myself. Is he a serious contender for the co senior side next year?0
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I wouldnt be looking enviously at Cork
200K isnt a whole lot when you consider the cost of redeveloping PUC spiralled from €86m to an estimated €110m
I would rather be looking at a stadium then looking for one!
look at their senior set up this year, probably the best ever put together....
https://www.the42.ie/cork-hurling-pat-mulcahy-brian-corcoran-4861987-Oct2019/
that isnt done by volunteers, high hopes and good wishes.
Said all along, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.0 -
Mastermcgrath wrote: »A lot of talk about Dessie Hutchinson lately. I haven’t seen him play myself. Is he a serious contender for the co senior side next year?
I only saw him in the county final and he was impressive that day anyway. His striking needs to improve and will do as he's been out of it for a while but he has good movement, positional sense, catching, out in front of his man and clearly has an eye for goal and took his chances well. The only real flaw I saw was striking from distance as he dropped a few short but the accuracy was there.
From his off the ball interview he seems grounded and would be a good addition to the panel considering his professional experience and work rate.
If I was Cahill I'd definitely be calling him up for a trial anyway. I'd say he'd do damage alongside Stephen Bennett.0 -
Are you calling Cahill etc monkeys already?thesaturdayman wrote: »I would rather be looking at a stadium then looking for one!
look at their senior set up this year, probably the best ever put together....
https://www.the42.ie/cork-hurling-pat-mulcahy-brian-corcoran-4861987-Oct2019/
that isnt done by volunteers, high hopes and good wishes.
Said all along, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
Surely fra and molumphy should be held in the same regard in Waterford as Corcoran and mulcahy are in cork. Cahill is an all Ireland winner also so bit harsh on him also
Cork doing things right now but only few months ago people were on here saying how far cork have fallen.
Cork and waterfords set ups are under pressure to do well and big names don't always mean success. Lot of big voices in the cork set up could all end in tears just as much as waterfords could0 -
Are you calling Cahill etc monkeys already?
Surely fra and molumphy should be held in the same regard in Waterford as Corcoran and mulcahy are in cork. Cahill is an all Ireland winner also so bit harsh on him also
Cork doing things right now but only few months ago people were on here saying how far cork have fallen.
Cork and waterfords set ups are under pressure to do well and big names don't always mean success. Lot of big voices in the cork set up could all end in tears just as much as waterfords could
it is a renowned idiom.
No i am not the senior hurling mgmt is top class, bank rolled by private money. Not board generated funds.
Peanuts and monkeys? Wexford have a commercial mgr churning out huge returns for the county. What do we have?
Cork are hiring full time rugby professionals of international standing.
Tipp are bringing people from Arsenal into their backroom.
We havent the financial firepower to do that and there is no reason why we shouldnt have.0 -
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This is the problem I have with some of your arguments Saturdayman. On the one hand you've a problem with private financial backers (not sure why) and cite Cork is an example of where we fail in generating capital to fund our activities sustainably.
Then you mention Tipp, bankrolled by a multi billion dollar company, as an example of where we're failing too because of the investment they're capable of. You can't have it every way0 -
Have to agree with Saturdayman. A commercial manager is needed asap and in the long term can be of great benefit to our county teams. Could be trialled and if successful make the position permanent.0
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think he has a problem with private investors. What he is saying, is that the County Board are inept at raising funds.mountgomery burns wrote: »This is the problem I have with some of your arguments Saturdayman. On the one hand you've a problem with private financial backers (not sure why) and cite Cork is an example of where we fail in generating capital to fund our activities sustainably.
Then you mention Tipp, bankrolled by a multi billion dollar company, as an example of where we're failing too because of the investment they're capable of. You can't have it every way0 -
mountgomery burns wrote: »This is the problem I have with some of your arguments Saturdayman. On the one hand you've a problem with private financial backers (not sure why) and cite Cork is an example of where we fail in generating capital to fund our activities sustainably.
Then you mention Tipp, bankrolled by a multi billion dollar company, as an example of where we're failing too because of the investment they're capable of. You can't have it every way
Ok so Tipp are backed by a multi billion dollar company - all legit all through the books. The Tipp supporters club are a machine, backed by the best of people, only one supporters club, not the deise in dublin, not club deise, not paddy joe and friends in bridie dees, not al eile stud - see where i am going here. These arent slights at these people either, their goodwill and good work is obvious and their intentions good. In the scheme of things its chicken feed compared to the others we are competing against.
Tipp Supporters club put close on a 400k into Tipp senior hurlers this year.
http://www.tippsupportersclub.com/
It is no coincidence Tipp have huge financial backing when they have big blue chip names like Niall Quinn, Alan quinlan etc etc at the steering committee.
No disrespect to Waterford equivalent, they are doing their best, but you need big hitters at the table, proper big hitters. I know of 3 maybe 4 hugely powerful influential waterford people - mad hurling fans - who are heads of Multi billion dollar companies.
They dont contribute much annually bar maybe a few tickets and a bit of gear and membership to club deise. Some arent even club members! These people are openly dismissed by our chairman as not being "real GAA people"
A commercial revenue mgr drives this, he builds relationships, he gets the best of people around the table and gets results that allow delivery of big plans. I am back to our board again here so i wont go down this worm hole again.
The issue i have with private financial backing is solely this, it papers over the cracks, when Mr X decides "yerra fck this" we are back to square one again, no sustainable business model, no massive revenue in behind it. It is not future proof.
The senior hurling team is the best suit in the shop window, but there needs to be something people can invest in behind it, to get the big hitters mentioned above in, a 5 year plan, a carriganore, a joint venture with WIT, something brave, bold that will excite people or whatever it may be
Let the data drive the discussion not opinion, ye know my thoughts. Not this old wine in new bottles, Walsh park hasnt even got lights ffs, the pitch is the size of a matchbox & can never host events in it.
Cork have gotten their best people around all their teams, the senior set up is frightening, all of those men were mooted to be our manager - 3/4 of them and they are all working as one now!
Minor mgt the same.
The Cork board have really turned a corner and gotten the best GAA people working together and married them with the best professionals they can get, their full time nutritionist is on circa 50k!
I know im going back down the wormhole here, but our board want to divide and conquer! Our ex players and hurling people wont work with Johnny or Paddy but i will work with Dave and Mick. In Cork / Kerry / Dublin the Ego is left at the door.
I believe some waterford people who are decision makers for GAA affairs in this county would rather be a big part of something small, then a small part of something big.
To progress as a county we need in my opinion the following;
A plan to develop a centre of excellence - 12 month , 36 month, 5 year and 10 year plan that is vetted and signed off by the best Waterford people available in business, industry, sport etc not just GAA that will be be financially attractive to people and companies alike to invest in.
We need professionals running the board - people with business accumen.
We need the best academics available to anticipate change and get us ahead of the curves.
More so then ever we need total and utter transparency. I have heard that allegedly there was a backer willing to come in but wanted to have his accountants vet the county coffers and was told no, how true im not sure, but this person was allegedly backing the queally ticket.
If i was chairman tomorrow a full 10 year forensic examination of accounts be done, not to hang people out to dry, but to give Joe Public full belief that we do our affairs in the right way.
At the moment its widely acknowledged our governance is poor and ultimately damaging to the brand that is Waterford GAA.
We need one board, one supporters club, one set of fixtures.
Rant over, again. I know people will go ahh thats all total bollox bla bla bla, but thats reality, the GAA in Waterford is a business, a business is only as good as its employees and the brand they purport to be and the plan they are working towards.
For the last time, we have more officers then US Army at board level all long passed their sell by date. Dam, wormhole again!0 -
thesaturdayman wrote: »Ok so Tipp are backed by a multi billion dollar company - all legit all through the books. The Tipp supporters club are a machine, backed by the best of people, only one supporters club, not the deise in dublin, not club deise, not paddy joe and friends in bridie dees, not al eile stud - see where i am going here. These arent slights at these people either, their goodwill and good work is obvious and their intentions good. In the scheme of things its chicken feed compared to the others we are competing against.
Tipp Supporters club put close on a 400k into Tipp senior hurlers this year.
http://www.tippsupportersclub.com/
It is no coincidence Tipp have huge financial backing when they have big blue chip names like Niall Quinn, Alan quinlan etc etc at the steering committee.
No disrespect to Waterford equivalent, they are doing their best, but you need big hitters at the table, proper big hitters. I know of 3 maybe 4 hugely powerful influential waterford people - mad hurling fans - who are heads of Multi billion dollar companies.
They dont contribute much annually bar maybe a few tickets and a bit of gear and membership to club deise. Some arent even club members! These people are openly dismissed by our chairman as not being "real GAA people"
A commercial revenue mgr drives this, he builds relationships, he gets the best of people around the table and gets results that allow delivery of big plans. I am back to our board again here so i wont go down this worm hole again.
The issue i have with private financial backing is solely this, it papers over the cracks, when Mr X decides "yerra fck this" we are back to square one again, no sustainable business model, no massive revenue in behind it. It is not future proof.
The senior hurling team is the best suit in the shop window, but there needs to be something people can invest in behind it, to get the big hitters mentioned above in, a 5 year plan, a carriganore, a joint venture with WIT, something brave, bold that will excite people or whatever it may be
Let the data drive the discussion not opinion, ye know my thoughts. Not this old wine in new bottles, Walsh park hasnt even got lights ffs, the pitch is the size of a matchbox & can never host events in it.
Cork have gotten their best people around all their teams, the senior set up is frightening, all of those men were mooted to be our manager - 3/4 of them and they are all working as one now!
Minor mgt the same.
The Cork board have really turned a corner and gotten the best GAA people working together and married them with the best professionals they can get, their full time nutritionist is on circa 50k!
I know im going back down the wormhole here, but our board want to divide and conquer! Our ex players and hurling people wont work with Johnny or Paddy but i will work with Dave and Mick. In Cork / Kerry / Dublin the Ego is left at the door.
I believe some waterford people who are decision makers for GAA affairs in this county would rather be a big part of something small, then a small part of something big.
To progress as a county we need in my opinion the following;
A plan to develop a centre of excellence - 12 month , 36 month, 5 year and 10 year plan that is vetted and signed off by the best Waterford people available in business, industry, sport etc not just GAA that will be be financially attractive to people and companies alike to invest in.
We need professionals running the board - people with business accumen.
We need the best academics available to anticipate change and get us ahead of the curves.
More so then ever we need total and utter transparency. I have heard that allegedly there was a backer willing to come in but wanted to have his accountants vet the county coffers and was told no, how true im not sure, but this person was allegedly backing the queally ticket.
If i was chairman tomorrow a full 10 year forensic examination of accounts be done, not to hang people out to dry, but to give Joe Public full belief that we do our affairs in the right way.
At the moment its widely acknowledged our governance is poor and ultimately damaging to the brand that is Waterford GAA.
We need one board, one supporters club, one set of fixtures.
Rant over, again. I know people will go ahh thats all total bollox bla bla bla, but thats reality, the GAA in Waterford is a business, a business is only as good as its employees and the brand they purport to be and the plan they are working towards.
For the last time, we have more officers then US Army at board level all long passed their sell by date. Dam, wormhole again!
All very good points. I just don't think the interest is there to do it in Waterford. We are a small county and I think no matter what is done we will would only see a small rise in standard and we will still lag behind Tipp cork Kilkenny.well and good complaining about officials but where is the appetite of anyone to take over. I honestly think you should go for ya make some very good points!!.
Let's be honest millions could be thrown at waterford over a decade but Tipp Kilkenny would still win the most over that decade. The whole comaraderi of the gaa is lost because of all theses counties paying physios, phycologists etc. Your right it is a business but it will see the decline of gaa in the long run. So much money in intercounty now eventually the club will never come first again. Without clubs its fūcked0 -
All very good points. I just don't think the interest is there to do it in Waterford. We are a small county and I think no matter what is done we will would only see a small rise in standard and we will still lag behind Tipp cork Kilkenny.well and good complaining about officials but where is the appetite of anyone to take over. I honestly think you should go for ya make some very good points!!.
Let's be honest millions could be thrown at waterford over a decade but Tipp Kilkenny would still win the most over that decade. The whole comaraderi of the gaa is lost because of all theses counties paying physios, phycologists etc. Your right it is a business but it will see the decline of gaa in the long run. So much money in intercounty now eventually the club will never come first again. Without clubs its fūcked
Take a look at Roscommon and see what they are doing.0 -
enoughtaken wrote: »Take a look at Roscommon and see what they are doing.
Yes the appetite is obviously there to do it. It's not in Waterford.0 -
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enoughtaken wrote: »Yep. And why. There lies the problem.
The support of other sports in the area like Soccer but that's only a quick guess0 -
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Jjjjjjjjbarry wrote: »I only saw him in the county final and he was impressive that day anyway. His striking needs to improve and will do as he's been out of it for a while but he has good movement, positional sense, catching, out in front of his man and clearly has an eye for goal and took his chances well. The only real flaw I saw was striking from distance as he dropped a few short but the accuracy was there.
From his off the ball interview he seems grounded and would be a good addition to the panel considering his professional experience and work rate.
If I was Cahill I'd definitely be calling him up for a trial anyway. I'd say he'd do damage alongside Stephen Bennett.
What Cahill really needs is a couple of young forwatds to break in a shake things up next year. I don’t know if they’re s anyone there though, maybe Kiely from Abbeyaide has a chance, and Dessie H could be a surprise late developer.0
This discussion has been closed.
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