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Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 3 **MOD NOTE POST 1***
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What would these proper structures be? What would you change?tbiggertycome wrote: »It's a welcome step but I would prefer to see them make more steps towards setting up the proper structures for underage and a pathway through the Kilkenny system, so our underage players are ready for the step up to senior when they leave the underage ranks, our lads are not unfortunately.
They have squads/teams from u14 that start assessing players towards LTPD and county minor/21 and eventually a small few to inter county senior.0 -
Festive Life wrote: »What would these proper structures be? What would you change?
They have squads/teams from u14 that start assessing players towards LTPD and county minor/21 and eventually a small few to inter county senior.
First thing is move the minor club back to under 18. u19 just doesn't work 60% of games last year were ended in walkovers. So many lads opting out now after u17. They find the first year playing adult to much of a step and are not enjoying it and don't come back u19. Tipp have held onto the u18 club as the major underage competition.
But I fear Kilkenny wont do this as they are so far up Croke Parks hole that they backed the proposal when Croke park pushed for it and to change would be frowned upon.0 -
Changing minor club back to 18s can only happen if you help structures of competitions to get far more games.First thing is move the minor club back to under 18. u19 just doesn't work 60% of games last year were ended in walkovers. So many lads opting out now after u17. They find the first year playing adult to much of a step and are not enjoying it and don't come back u19. Tipp have held onto the u18 club as the major underage competition.
But I fear Kilkenny wont do this as they are so far up Croke Parks hole that they backed the proposal when Croke park pushed for it and to change would be frowned upon.
There is so few playing too many games and far too many playing nowhere near enough. Changing minor back to under 18 can only be one part of how to do that.0 -
Don't think you're allowed change back now. Haven't Tipp and Cork committed to following the 13/15/17 split now? Thought I read that late last year.
Even Féile is moving to U15 I think0 -
First thing is move the minor club back to under 18. u19 just doesn't work 60% of games last year were ended in walkovers. So many lads opting out now after u17. They find the first year playing adult to much of a step and are not enjoying it and don't come back u19. Tipp have held onto the u18 club as the major underage competition.
But I fear Kilkenny wont do this as they are so far up Croke Parks hole that they backed the proposal when Croke park pushed for it and to change would be frowned upon.
U19 wasn't played at all last year and the year before their was five or 6 games conceded in roinn A out of 25.and about the same in the other roinns .far from 60%0 -
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Festive Life wrote: »What would these proper structures be? What would you change?
They have squads/teams from u14 that start assessing players towards LTPD and county minor/21 and eventually a small few to inter county senior.
Well if you look at the most successful counties in the last few years you'll see they've abandoned the Development Squad model and moved to an academy or a joint academy and development squad model.
Teams that have moved to the Academy model some for a decade some just recently.
Limerick,
Dublin,
Galway,
Kerry,
Cork,
Clare,
Kildare,
Donegal most recently
Monaghan,
Tyrone,
Wexford are finalising their setup.
An academy is far more like a professional soccer youths team in that it's far harder to get onto, only the top 30 to 40 players are invited after scouting and worked with very closely. Their given very high level coaching and S&C tailored to each player to get the most our of him. If the player doesn't put in the work or can't reach the levels required they are dropped back down but still supported to a degree and can be brought back if they can reach the level again. The current Limerick team are a product of this type of development.
If we keep the Development squad model there has to be some accountability and performance critiques of our coaches and S&C set ups. There ideally would be one full time person over all S&C in the county setups who would coach the coaches and the players at the higher end. This would include schools especially secondary but also primary to a degree.
This person would be responsible for tracking the players development (from and S&C) perspective and would coordinate with Colleges and club coaches to make sure the were getting the right work and in the correct quantities. As a few have alluded to we have a drop off at different ages and with the move to U20. I think we should actually be keeping contact with our ex U20 players in a system where their development is tracked for a few years after U20 and their supported with the appropriate S&C and other coaching on a paired back basis. Given how far we are behind in certain areas the fact that our teams have preformed as well as they have is testament to the quality of hurler we have and some of the coaching that's taking place. The issue is there is no overall structure and accountability for those players and coaches not reaching the levels.
The full time S&C role would also only be a 4 or 5 year role (reviewed every year) after this we should really be looking for a new person in this role as if someone in that field is doing it right they should be in demand and a change of approach would also keep it fresh with new ideas.
A lot of other counties are very happy that we're so lax as they know with the quality of hurler we produce, allied with a proper setup we would be back challenging and winning lots of titles. It would take time but we need to put the processes in place or we're going to fall a long way down the pecking order.0 -
As Anthony Daly said in an article a while back In many ways, an academy is a souped-up term for a raft of development squads.tbiggertycome wrote: »Well if you look at the most successful counties in the last few years you'll see they've abandoned the Development Squad model and moved to an academy or a joint academy and development squad model.
Teams that have moved to the Academy model some for a decade some just recently.
Limerick,
Dublin,
Galway,
Kerry,
Cork,
Clare,
Kildare,
Donegal most recently
Monaghan,
Tyrone,
Wexford are finalising their setup.
An academy is far more like a professional soccer youths team in that it's far harder to get onto, only the top 30 to 40 players are invited after scouting and worked with very closely. Their given very high level coaching and S&C tailored to each player to get the most our of him. If the player doesn't put in the work or can't reach the levels required they are dropped back down but still supported to a degree and can be brought back if they can reach the level again. The current Limerick team are a product of this type of development.
If we keep the Development squad model there has to be some accountability and performance critiques of our coaches and S&C set ups. There ideally would be one full time person over all S&C in the county setups who would coach the coaches and the players at the higher end. This would include schools especially secondary but also primary to a degree.
This person would be responsible for tracking the players development (from and S&C) perspective and would coordinate with Colleges and club coaches to make sure the were getting the right work and in the correct quantities. As a few have alluded to we have a drop off at different ages and with the move to U20. I think we should actually be keeping contact with our ex U20 players in a system where their development is tracked for a few years after U20 and their supported with the appropriate S&C and other coaching on a paired back basis. Given how far we are behind in certain areas the fact that our teams have preformed as well as they have is testament to the quality of hurler we have and some of the coaching that's taking place. The issue is there is no overall structure and accountability for those players and coaches not reaching the levels.
The full time S&C role would also only be a 4 or 5 year role (reviewed every year) after this we should really be looking for a new person in this role as if someone in that field is doing it right they should be in demand and a change of approach would also keep it fresh with new ideas.
A lot of other counties are very happy that we're so lax as they know with the quality of hurler we produce, allied with a proper setup we would be back challenging and winning lots of titles. It would take time but we need to put the processes in place or we're going to fall a long way down the pecking order.
The term you give is ultimately irrelevant. So saying move away from development squads to an academy set up is irrelevant because its not like pro rugby or soccer where the players in the academies are training full time apart from studies and working in same set up directly week in week out with the top pros of their team.
Its still picking squads from u14 grade and building towards the various tournaments these sides play and building towards minor/u21 etc
How exactly0 -
There's a difference between development squads and academies. Yes neither are full time but Limerick don't use the academy as a preparation for minor ect. Its like a separate entity and yes most will be on the underage teams but they are being prepared to fill a position at senior. The winning of underage titles is somewhat irrelevant as we've seen with Galway. They give confidence maybe but the winning is for senior. Its all about producing a ready made fully developed guy for the senior squad.
An advantage Limerick have is that the Munster rugby academy is based in UL aswell, different gyms evt. But its great to see the strength of the rugby guys and ve able to see what they do. The speed work ect. Kyle Hayes would be the 2nd fastest after Nash over 100metres ...over 40 its Pat Ryan..all that info is raw data to be used to show the new guys what to aim for.Its not rocket science stuff at all but I would say Kilkenny would take to it like a duck to water because the raw talent is there.0 -
https://twitter.com/TipperaryGAA/status/1354179405363490816?s=19
See this innovative idea from tipp.
Think people have gotten a taste for streaming would be brilliant to have club round up on Monday evenings during club championship's and live games during the year.
Stream college and all intercounty games at everyage market is there and technology now makes it possible.
Some of the commentarys might be questionable but that would be half the crack.0 -
kilkennyboy wrote: »https://twitter.com/TipperaryGAA/status/1354179405363490816?s=19
See this innovative idea from tipp.
Think people have gotten a taste for streaming would be brilliant to have club round up on Monday evenings during club championship's and live games during the year.
Stream college and all intercounty games at everyage market is there and technology now makes it possible.
Some of the commentarys might be questionable but that would be half the crack.
Totally agree with the above it would help promote the game, a good interest for all hurling lovers, potential of what's coming though and also people living away from the parish or county would get a chance to watch. Why is it kilkenny seem to be in the stoneage and lost in time. The county is being surpassed at everything0 -
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You wouldnt even need commentary on all games. Just stream game and let people watch. You hear players more etc.kilkennyboy wrote: »https://twitter.com/TipperaryGAA/status/1354179405363490816?s=19
See this innovative idea from tipp.
Think people have gotten a taste for streaming would be brilliant to have club round up on Monday evenings during club championship's and live games during the year.
Stream college and all intercounty games at everyage market is there and technology now makes it possible.
Some of the commentarys might be questionable but that would be half the crack.
Some counties mightnt want all inter county games at all ages covered tbf and i wouldnt see a need for all of them to be covered
Dont think Kilkenny is in stone age at all. Many other counties dont do things like this/provide much coverage of these levels.Totally agree with the above it would help promote the game, a good interest for all hurling lovers, potential of what's coming though and also people living away from the parish or county would get a chance to watch. Why is it kilkenny seem to be in the stoneage and lost in time. The county is being surpassed at everything0 -
Think of grandparents and older people who cant get to a tony foristal
Where a young relative might only play at that level.
It would take a bit of financial backing but plenty opportunity for business to advertise on it.0 -
A good few counites operate u13 district or regional academies /squads (Academy is the current ''acceptable /usable term). The GAA produced a report in them in 2020, its available on line for anyone interested in reading it.
In reality many counties copied the Kilkenny Development Squad System years ago and have made changes suitable to their needs or medium and longer term planning.
Limerick are given as a great example and they have reaped the rewards at senior in 2018 and 2020. They had Jerry Wallace and Anthony Daly and good access to 3rd level facilities.
Be it through clubs or regional squads (Kilkenny North, Central and South) and / or info from the Lisdowney 7s or club county Feile, Kilkenny produce two and sometimes 3 u14 squads. Every now and then we win TF or SW and others years we don't. Its not the end of the world if we don't. And it is not a pointer to having successful championship minor teams although there are indicators.
Sometimes I think we can run the risk of looking over the at where we think the grass is greener. Last January (2020 pre Covid) I watched a Kilkenny South u14 team (with no u13 sessions for county) beat a Wexford team (from Enniscorthy and Gorey districts and having done one year at u13). What does it mean? Nothing other than to say when it came to a game of hurling on a frosty morning in WIT Arena, the Kilkenny chaps had a better level of skill and workrate than the Wexford chaps.
Squads are made up of club players drawn from the North, Central and South regions and the complete 48 of TF and SW come from over a hundred of players who did sessions for a few months and played club and school. Contact sessions are weekly and sometimes with another session or match or blitz at a weekend. There is precious little time to improve skills or agility or other key components of playing hurling. Can they be improved? Yes, everything can be improved. The bulk of the coaching is done by volunteer coaches. Room for improvement? Yes.
Our clubs and schools are feeding those players in to squads /academies. Its in clubs and schools where core issues and good habits need to be developed. Areas such as Agility, Balance and Coordination and Running, Throwing and Jumping. It is the age range of 6-10 where children develop the foundations, the Fundamentals. Are we doing that in our clubs and schools? Linear and multidirectional speed drills, with and without a ball? Developing own body weight skills, correct methods of stretching? Unrealistic to expect a chap to start doing these when its never been done before. Better to use a broom handle and teach a child the correct way of lifting rather introducing S&C as some kind of magic key at aged 14.
No doubt that we have much to improve on. And some of it is very very urgent.
But it has to be a joined up approach to include schools, clubs and underage intercounty.0 -
ghostumpire wrote: »A good few counites operate u13 district or regional academies /squads (Academy is the current ''acceptable /usable term). The GAA produced a report in them in 2020, its available on line for anyone interested in reading it.
In reality many counties copied the Kilkenny Development Squad System years ago and have made changes suitable to their needs or medium and longer term planning.
Limerick are given as a great example and they have reaped the rewards at senior in 2018 and 2020. They had Jerry Wallace and Anthony Daly and good access to 3rd level facilities.
Be it through clubs or regional squads (Kilkenny North, Central and South) and / or info from the Lisdowney 7s or club county Feile, Kilkenny produce two and sometimes 3 u14 squads. Every now and then we win TF or SW and others years we don't. Its not the end of the world if we don't. And it is not a pointer to having successful championship minor teams although there are indicators.
Sometimes I think we can run the risk of looking over the at where we think the grass is greener. Last January (2020 pre Covid) I watched a Kilkenny South u14 team (with no u13 sessions for county) beat a Wexford team (from Enniscorthy and Gorey districts and having done one year at u13). What does it mean? Nothing other than to say when it came to a game of hurling on a frosty morning in WIT Arena, the Kilkenny chaps had a better level of skill and workrate than the Wexford chaps.
Squads are made up of club players drawn from the North, Central and South regions and the complete 48 of TF and SW come from over a hundred of players who did sessions for a few months and played club and school. Contact sessions are weekly and sometimes with another session or match or blitz at a weekend. There is precious little time to improve skills or agility or other key components of playing hurling. Can they be improved? Yes, everything can be improved. The bulk of the coaching is done by volunteer coaches. Room for improvement? Yes.
Our clubs and schools are feeding those players in to squads /academies. Its in clubs and schools where core issues and good habits need to be developed. Areas such as Agility, Balance and Coordination and Running, Throwing and Jumping. It is the age range of 6-10 where children develop the foundations, the Fundamentals. Are we doing that in our clubs and schools? Linear and multidirectional speed drills, with and without a ball? Developing own body weight skills, correct methods of stretching? Unrealistic to expect a chap to start doing these when its never been done before. Better to use a broom handle and teach a child the correct way of lifting rather introducing S&C as some kind of magic key at aged 14.
No doubt that we have much to improve on. And some of it is very very urgent.
But it has to be a joined up approach to include schools, clubs and underage intercounty.
Its all very well and good spouting what needs to be done this and that but ultimately boils down to have we got a progressive enough thinker at county board level to even suggest these ideas and help bring these changes along? If not as Eddie Brennan put it and we have lads there in it for their "free jackets and entry to matches" well then we are in a bit of bother for the next while.0 -
A modern version of Ned Quinn do not really exist in Nowlan park at the moment.0
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People need to remember you're dealing with children here no matter what their talent level is. I'm one of the most vocal on saying I don't believe the dev squads are achieving enough at the minute but I mean by the quality of coaching, not the contact time. The S&C stuff being touted here etc has some serious professional aspirations and between clubs, schools and county the expectations on kids can easily get out of hand. Just be mindful.0
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JJs Left Hand wrote: »People need to remember you're dealing with children here no matter what their talent level is. I'm one of the most vocal on saying I don't believe the dev squads are achieving enough at the minute but I mean by the quality of coaching, not the contact time. The S&C stuff being touted here etc has some serious professional aspirations and between clubs, schools and county the expectations on kids can easily get out of hand. Just be mindful.
I'd be inclined to believe that S&C plans should only done in county and clubs.0 -
When you say serious professional aspirations about S&C what do you mean and why is that a problem exactly?JJs Left Hand wrote: »People need to remember you're dealing with children here no matter what their talent level is. I'm one of the most vocal on saying I don't believe the dev squads are achieving enough at the minute but I mean by the quality of coaching, not the contact time. The S&C stuff being touted here etc has some serious professional aspirations and between clubs, schools and county the expectations on kids can easily get out of hand. Just be mindful.
Why?I'd be inclined to believe that S&C plans should only done in county and clubs.0 -
JJs Left Hand wrote: »People need to remember you're dealing with children here no matter what their talent level is. I'm one of the most vocal on saying I don't believe the dev squads are achieving enough at the minute but I mean by the quality of coaching, not the contact time. The S&C stuff being touted here etc has some serious professional aspirations and between clubs, schools and county the expectations on kids can easily get out of hand. Just be mindful.
https://twitter.com/AndrewBrownhil/status/1354001030468554753?s=19
Point he makes still valid.0 -
Festive Life wrote: »When you say serious professional aspirations about S&C what do you mean and why is that a problem exactly?
Why?
A lot of clubs would have children going to different schools. Clubs would end up with many players at an underage level with different S&C levels within one squad which is to be avoided. Would be much preferable for all players within the same squad having consistent levels of S&C training unless they're on county development squads.
I'd also have issues with county boards interfering with training plans for schools as children often play multiple sports with the schools.0 -
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Strength and conditioning is something that was ingrained in me by an uncle 30 years ago from Los Angles. Kids in America lift from 12 and lift correctly. It should be done in PE classes ,in schools like in Eastern Europe. By the time a minor comes along he should know how to run, lift and jump. He can be timed over 20, 40 and 60 metres, his bench press and squat and deadlift measured. If he doesn't meet the standard for his weight and height he should be sent home. Thats how sports in Australia, South Africa and USA are done. To hear Gearoid Hegarty could barely lift the bench press bar at 19 was shocking to me. Especially as he's from Limerick city surrounded by rugby players. Its a testimony to his talent that he made it. Id have told him to stop embarrassing himself and clear off if I saw him only able to lift the bar at that age.0
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That indicates that your attitude to S and C is wrong though.BloodyBill wrote: »Strength and conditioning is something that was ingrained in me by an uncle 30 years ago from Los Angles. Kids in America lift from 12 and lift correctly. It should be done in PE classes ,in schools like in Eastern Europe. By the time a minor comes along he should know how to run, lift and jump. He can be timed over 20, 40 and 60 metres, his bench press and squat and deadlift measured. If he doesn't meet the standard for his weight and height he should be sent home. Thats how sports in Australia, South Africa and USA are done. To hear Gearoid Hegarty could barely lift the bench press bar at 19 was shocking to me. Especially as he's from Limerick city surrounded by rugby players. Its a testimony to his talent that he made it. Id have told him to stop embarrassing himself and clear off if I saw him only able to lift the bar at that age.0 -
[QUOTE=BloodyBill;
To hear Gearoid Hegarty could barely lift the bench press bar at 19 was shocking to me. Especially as he's from Limerick city surrounded by rugby players. Its a testimony to his talent that he made it. Id have told him to stop embarrassing himself and clear off if I saw him only able to lift the bar at that age.[/QUOTE]
Given that you have just cited the actual Hurler of the Year as an example of someone you'd have dismissed at 19 because he wasn't enough of a 'bro' fairly undermines your argument.0 -
BloodyBill wrote: »Strength and conditioning is something that was ingrained in me by an uncle 30 years ago from Los Angles. Kids in America lift from 12 and lift correctly. It should be done in PE classes ,in schools like in Eastern Europe. By the time a minor comes along he should know how to run, lift and jump. He can be timed over 20, 40 and 60 metres, his bench press and squat and deadlift measured. If he doesn't meet the standard for his weight and height he should be sent home. Thats how sports in Australia, South Africa and USA are done. To hear Gearoid Hegarty could barely lift the bench press bar at 19 was shocking to me. Especially as he's from Limerick city surrounded by rugby players. Its a testimony to his talent that he made it. Id have told him to stop embarrassing himself and clear off if I saw him only able to lift the bar at that age.
I could name you 10 athletes off the top of my head in professional basketball, soccer and track and field whos strength and conditioning would of been very inadequate at 18 but off the charts by age 22.
Too many GAA players to name in this category.
Do some research before you post.0 -
Just worth mentioning on the whole s&c debate
Weight lifters aren't great hurlers.0 -
Coordinate what the staff/coaches are doing. They dont have to be doing same thing at same time in all locations but you would have players at completely different levels even with the same coachA lot of clubs would have children going to different schools. Clubs would end up with many players at an underage level with different S&C levels within one squad which is to be avoided. Would be much preferable for all players within the same squad having consistent levels of S&C training unless they're on county development squads.
I'd also have issues with county boards interfering with training plans for schools as children often play multiple sports with the schools.
That Hegartys from Limerick and "surrounded" by rugby players doesnt at all mean he should have been strong/able to bench well....BloodyBill wrote: »Strength and conditioning is something that was ingrained in me by an uncle 30 years ago from Los Angles. Kids in America lift from 12 and lift correctly. It should be done in PE classes ,in schools like in Eastern Europe. By the time a minor comes along he should know how to run, lift and jump. He can be timed over 20, 40 and 60 metres, his bench press and squat and deadlift measured. If he doesn't meet the standard for his weight and height he should be sent home. Thats how sports in Australia, South Africa and USA are done. To hear Gearoid Hegarty could barely lift the bench press bar at 19 was shocking to me. Especially as he's from Limerick city surrounded by rugby players. Its a testimony to his talent that he made it. Id have told him to stop embarrassing himself and clear off if I saw him only able to lift the bar at that age.
There should be better training and knowledge of strength, conditioning, general movement etc but that would require teachers/pe teachers to be trained more and have to undergo frequent upskilling on coaching techniques etc far more than currently happens
Strength and conditioning for hurling wouldnt have to be lifting huge weight so theyre not going to be weight lifters....kilkennyboy wrote: »Just worth mentioning on the whole s&c debate
Weight lifters aren't great hurlers.
Doesnt matter how good your hurling technique is if in contact/collisions in games you are always losing out.0 -
I could name you 10 athletes off the top of my head in professional basketball, soccer and track and field whos strength and conditioning would of been very inadequate at 18 but off the charts by age 22.
Too many GAA players to name in this category.
Do some research before you post.
Yeah don't get your point about knowing sports people who's S&C was inadequate at 18. What research are you on about??
I m sure your right but its fundamentally wrong that they got to 18 without their parents or schools teaching them. Its a lack of physical education in my opinion.
There are way too many GAA players to name that don't start S&C until they are 17 ir 18..Thats already late. I started when I was 14 years old 26 years ago In Limerick. Theres no child of mine girl or boy that wasn't thought how to run lift and stretch properly by 12.0 -
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kilkennyboy wrote: »https://twitter.com/LaurenGuilfoyle/status/1356212514695077889?s=09
Bigger backroom team than us
I'd say we'd still take them though.0 -
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Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »I'd say we'd still take them though.
Kilkenny had,
Brian Dowling
Tommy Shefflin
Ray Challoner
Pat O'Neill
Philly Larkin
Angela Downey was also there to some capacity
I am not sure who they had as physio etc and s&c
That's as good a management team you can get. Probably better set up than the senior hurling at present0
This discussion has been closed.
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