Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 3 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Alonzo Moseley

kilkennyboy wrote: »

Eoin Larkin on colm Parkinson yesterday said pretty much the same .and the talk of players being unhappy was a social media creation. And that when ballycallan were asked about their proposal for a change of management they had no idea where it came from.
He went on to say cody is over achieving with the current panel.

Larkin for a whole host of reasons would naturally be inclined to be immensely loyal to Cody (and rightly so, not least for what he bravely outlined in his bio).

But sorry, suggesting but for Cody right now, we'd be far further down the pecking order is not correct in my opinion

Over the past decade, all things considered, only Galway could match our success at minor and schools levels
A huge number of the current Limerick panel that we are all rightly raving about lost 4 (or possibly 5?) AI finals and semis playing with good ASR teams versus Kierans
I accept the u20/u21 grade has not been at the same level
So suggesting Cody is working with poor raw material is not accurate

Half the current Limerick team were beaten in an AI minor final by Kilkenny
No one on the current Limerick panel ever beat a Kilkenny team at any level until the 2017 U21 final

Yet here we are marvelling at their brilliance

Would Brian Cody be still the manager of Kilkenny if he had been appointed in 2016?
Would he even be the manager if he had been appointed in 2018?
For me, the answer would be definitely not

We are clinging on to him in the hope he can pull a rabbit from the hat (which he nearly did in 2019), but that's not clever

History is littered with managers of great sporting dynasties staying on too long for same reasons as we are holding on to Cody, and the results almost always are dire, with long term decline setting in.

What happened in the 2nd half versus both Dublin and Waterford last year (remember also the 2nd half down in Wexford Park in the league when Wex outplayed us into a 12 point gale) were not aberrations.
They are a pattern
Ignore them at your peril

If you don't agree, ask yourself the following question:
If we get to an AI semi this year and find ourselves up by 10 points HT.
Will you be very confident we will finish the job?
I bet you won't, and you'd be right

Not only is the fear factor with Cody gone with other management teams, quite frankly they want him there.

The bottom line for me,
We have been blessed to have had Cody, we shouldn't let it become a curse.


PS:
Good luck to Paul Murphy.
Great career and thanks for it all

therealdonster

kilkennyboy wrote: »

Eoin Larkin on colm Parkinson yesterday said pretty much the same .and the talk of players being unhappy was a social media creation.And that when ballycallan were asked about their proposal for a change of management they had no idea where it came from.
He went on to say cody is over achieving with the current panel.

I think we can attribute the G/B rumour to Denis Walshs article in the Times which he pinched from somewhere...??!!

I'm not so sure on his point of over achieving though. I think we currently have a better all round collection of players than Wexford, Clare, Dublin, Cork probably. None of those did better than us in 2020.

kilkennyboy

Alonzo Moseley wrote: »

Larkin for a whole host of reasons would naturally be inclined to be immensely loyal to Cody (and rightly so, not least for what he bravely outlined in his bio).

But sorry, suggesting but for Cody right now, we'd be far further down the pecking order is not correct in my opinion

Over the past decade, all things considered, only Galway could match our success at minor and schools levels
A huge number of the current Limerick panel that we are all rightly raving about lost 4 (or possibly 5?) AI finals and semis playing with good ASR teams versus Kierans
I accept the u20/u21 grade has not been at the same level
So suggesting Cody is working with poor raw material is not accurate

Half the current Limerick team were beaten in an AI minor final by Kilkenny
No one on the current Limerick panel ever beat a Kilkenny team at any level until the 2017 U21 final

Yet here we are marvelling at their brilliance

Would Brian Cody be still the manager of Kilkenny if he had been appointed in 2016?
Would he even be the manager if he had been appointed in 2018?
For me, the answer would be definitely not

We are clinging on to him in the hope he can pull a rabbit from the hat (which he nearly did in 2019), but that's not clever

History is littered with managers of great sporting dynasties staying on too long for same reasons as we are holding on to Cody, and the results almost always are dire, with long term decline setting in.

What happened in the 2nd half versus both Dublin and Waterford last year (remember also the 2nd half down in Wexford Park in the league when Wex outplayed us into a 12 point gale) were not aberrations.
They are a pattern
Ignore them at your peril

If you don't agree, ask yourself the following question:
If we get to an AI semi this year and find ourselves up by 10 points HT.
Will you be very confident we will finish the job?
I bet you won't, and you'd be right

Not only is the fear factor with Cody gone with other management teams, quite frankly they want him there.

The bottom line for me,
We have been blessed to have had Cody, we shouldn't let it become a curse.


PS:
Good luck to Paul Murphy.
Great career and thanks for it all

Cody's record since 16
Beaten by Waterford after et in 17
Beaten by limerick in 18 by 1pt
Won the league in 18
Reached all Ireland in 19
Leinster champions in 20

It reads better than most other bar kiely

Alonzo Moseley

therealdonster wrote: »

I think we can attribute the G/B rumour to Denis Walshs article in the Times which he pinched from somewhere...??!!

I'm not so sure on his point of over achieving though. I think we currently have a better all round collection of players than Wexford, Clare, Dublin, Cork probably. None of those did better than us in 2020.

I'd easily add Waterford to that list
I know it's harsh and I am not remotely anti-Waterford, I love the place
But our 2nd half collapse made up to 6 very average Waterford hurlers look miles better than they are
Some were being touted as all-stars
Limerick restored sanity to the equation

Playing wise there is currently no county with a frightening squad

Tipp might have won the last two u20/21 but I don't think it's a vintage crop
And again you just have to praise Cahill/Bevans
For instance, I wouldn't swap the 2 Mullens, Donnelly and Cody for Morris/Kehoe/B Mc Grath and Cadell

Even Limerick, a year ago, we raved about the bench.
Now?
Dowling gone, Mulcahy looks maybe near the end.
That would bring in Casey for Mulcahy and leave you with really just Pat Ryan and Reidy as impacts, hardly terrifying

Limerick undoubtedly have the best 15 right now but even then I believe Waterford in hindsight were perfect for Limerick
Limerick essentially being a better and stronger version of Waterford

For me, I think Limerick are not as far ahead as being made out and the rest are all very closely packed in terms of talent
Certainly keeping on trundling out this "We just don't have the talent.." line is tiring
We all know we don't have the talent of a decade ago, but thankfully no one else has either, not even Limerick

Rosita

citykat wrote: »

I am loathe to give this issue any more oxygen than it deserves. However seeing as you asked, I'll explain why i posted.
Firstly Cody has been ratified. It's a done deal for the upcoming season. Regardless of what people think, the appointment is not going to be reversed. Richie knew that when he give that interview? What did he think he was going to achieve? Is he that desperate for a bit of attention? Fogarty must've been delighted with that bit of clickbait. If Richie feels that strongly about things why not give Jimmy Walsh a call? Given all that Richie has done for Kilkenny he'd surely be given an audience. Richie reckons Cody needs to unearth 3 or 4 players. No **** Richie. If he has a few players in mind, why not make that call. Richie reckons we should go back to the old process for appointing managers via the clubs. Fair enough. Why not go through the channels in Kilkenny instead of spitballing with someone in the media?
All Kilkenny fans are disappointed after last season particularly at how things ended. All going well the season begins next month. Posts to this thread, supposedly true, have proven to be completely untrue. One national journalist even foolishly followed up on one of these stories and found it to have zero basis in fact. Players have been named, unfairly in my view, as wanting nothing to do with the current regime. Most of those players are probably in training at the moment. To be named in that fashion is reckless and unfair. I think it's time for an end to this bull**** and for people to start getting behind the team.
I would accept it was unfair of me to drag an innocent party into my beef with Richie. That individual certainly doesn't owe anybody anything. It's just that Richie Power is a legend in Kilkenny for what he has done on and off the field. That makes it all the more disappointing that he showed such poor judgement in proceeding with this interview at all.

But Richie Power or anyone else is entitled to speak with a journalist. People are entitled to express opinions without having to go through the glacial pace of "the county boards channels" to suggest a change. None of this is to say Power is right or wrong. He's neither because it's an opinion. The question is his entitlement to express it and there's no argument on that score.

This real issue if that people don't like to read that. All I can say is that every other county has had its 'loose cannons' in the media when things were going badly, and now that the doldrums have arrived in Kilkenny they are unlikely to be any different. Imagine if some journalist rings Eddie O'Connor? It may be hard to see your dirty linen aired in public but it is a fact of life and it cannot be regarded as "poor judgement" as that assumes that he is somehow mandated to express only one agreed and accepted view. Which he is not.

And good luck to Paul Murphy after a very fine career.

Alonzo Moseley

kilkennyboy wrote: »

Cody's record since 16
Beaten by Waterford after et in 17
Beaten by limerick in 18 by 1pt
Won the league in 18
Reached all Ireland in 19
Leinster champions in 20

It reads better than most other bar kiely

You picked highpoints, fair enough, but this is what is sustaining Cody in my opinion
The odd result where we go "hold on, we are back"
Lim 2019, League final 2018, last 15 mins v Galway last year
But they are outliers

Across those 5 years, there has been a litany of very worrying league performances too, where we were tactically blitzed and run off the field
notably by Clare and Wexford in particular (hardly world-beaters either of them), chasing shadows while bating the ****e out of the ball down the field ourselves.

In 2017
Lost to Wexford
Beat Lim in the park but let's be frank it was a very poor game
Lost to Waterford in Thurles, a late flurry bringing it to ET disguised a really ugly and crude performance

2018
V lucky to win in Parnell
Skin of our teeth win v Wex in park
3 games v Galway, a fighting draw in one, mauled in other two
Good start v Limerick then faded, a late goal nearly won it, but Limerick the better team. Still a decent effort in fairness

2019
V patchy Leinster performances and lucky to qualify
Poor Leinster final in which Wexford looked all over winners from 20 mins out
(Richie Hogan being brought on for the final 60 secs being the lowlight for me)
Terrific performances v Cork and Limerick and hmmm let's just skip the final

2020
Were handed a lovely draw
Two 2nd half capitulations
Sandwiched in between was a typical Kilkenny mugging of Galway, very enjoyable but not indicative of an upward trend for us alas.

The Good
Lim and Cork in 2019. League final 2018

The Ok

Galway this year and first day Leinster final 2018, Limerick 17 and 18, a few good first halves here and there

The Ugly
Pretty much everything else

I don't believe this CV would have seen any Kilkenny manager bar Cody survive (and survive without an iota of discussion of the matter)
Not Pat Henderson or Keher or Ollie, and never in a million years, Nickey Brennan, Diarmuid Healy or Kevin Fennelly

One final point
There seems a consensus that Paul Murphy is doing the right thing
Performance-wise what we have seen of him the past 4 years (the odd excellent performance but lots of sub-par ones and the odd howler) is just not comparable with the consistent excellent performances he achieved prior to that, and a realisation that it is highly unlikely therefore that he can somehow defy what we all have seen and regain that level of consistently high performances
But many insist we apply the exact opposite assesment criteria with Cody?

kilkennyboy

You only have to look at club finals over the last few years to see why kilkenny might struggle in rounds of the league. Probably missing 10 panellist each spring.
I wasn't picking high points that was where our year ended. If davy was achieving those results there would be a statue of him in wexford park.

JJs Left Hand

We're not talking about Wexford though. Results are obviously the be all and end all but nobody can watch us and say we're a well coached or managed team. We might be well motivated but that's it.

kilkennyboy

Its amazing the difference winning makes.if Quaid hits a monster puckout down on Hegarty or Morrissey and it ends in a score its alstars
And glory .
If tj or Donnelly look for the same puckout its dinosaurs and coaching.

JJs Left Hand

Aye, good lad, choose a singular aspect of the game that suits your argument and ignore the fact that after we go short from the puck out to the corner the only plan is you're on your own, or the fact that our players can't complete a stick pass 20 yards with any consistency, or the fact we regularly lose our shape and end up with no forward line, or the fact our delivery is route one in the air to the top of the D or the forwards who run in straight lines towards the ball without any variation of movement.

Ignore every performance against a team with a sweeper since 2016. Ignore the fact we got completely outplayed in the second half against Dublin and Waterford or for 50 mins of the Leinster final.

And ignore the fact that if it wasn't for TJ becoming the GOAT in the last 5 years we'd be a laughing stock.


Plus your argument makes zero sense. If we got a score from every puck out drove long nobody would complain but we can't win every puck out so you need this thing called a plan to help you win games.

Rosita

kilkennyboy wrote: »

Cody's record since 16
Beaten by Waterford after et in 17
Beaten by limerick in 18 by 1pt
Won the league in 18
Reached all Ireland in 19
Leinster champions in 20

It reads better than most other bar kiely

Not really when you drill down.

Since beating Waterford in the 2016 semi-final Kilkenny have played 22 championship games and won just 10. That is to say that they have been more likely to lose than to win or draw.

Five of those 10 wins have come against Dublin, Carlow, or Offaly, teams which either ended up in the Joe MacDonagh or lost to a team from it. Take those games out and you are looking at 5 wins from 17 against teams that would be say top 7 (all teams which were in an All-Ireland s/f in that time). Against Wexford the record in 1 win from 4, against Galway it's 1 from 5. Those are the facts and make raw reading.

There are more opinion-based criticisms of course. You mention losing by a point to Limerick in 2018. For all the difference it makes, it was actually two points, but more interesting is that Limerick scored 24 times from play to Kilkenny's 17. The margin of defeat in the end maybe flattered Kilkenny, and small margins like that really only matter if they imply progress rather than just an ability to jam your finger in the dyke for long enough while TJ Reid buckets out the water that does get in. Losing narrowly is not necessarily an achievement. Each game can have its own dynamic. Longer term trends are another matter. Limerick have since gone from strength to strength since while Kilkenny have stagnated. So what does a two-point margin tell us about anything other than the actual game itself?

The win over Limerick in 2019 was due to massive intensity and Limerick's profligacy and tactical naivete at the time when they tried scoring from huge distances. They were held to 2-10 from play (Kilkenny managed 1-13). Limerick hit that from play in the first half of matches at this stage. It was a one-off unrepeatable performance I think.

The win over Cork was good but we have seen how vulnerable Cork have been against all opposition too. And finally, Kilkenny got of jail against Galway this year in a game Galway should have closed out. It indicated a resilience (admirable) to stay in a game and take the breaks but it did not necessarily indicate progress in performance.

The subsequent defeat to a middling Waterford team gave a better indication of where Kilkenny are at. There have been highlights in recent years for sure but they have been once-offs relying on the herculean efforts of a few players, and it says a lot that the League Final of 2018 against a team which won 0 from 4 in the following championship is regarded here as one of them.

When Brian Cody took over Kilkenny in late 1998 he had a squad which included players who had won 4 All Ireland minor titles in the previous 10 years (all players then under 28) and by the time he got to 2012 he could say the same thing. The county now has one title in 11 years. The teams he managed at Senior level would at some point have had the pickings of no less than 7 teams which were good enough to win under-21 All Irelands. The county has not won a title in 13 years.

The last two points might be referenced in Cody's credit as he clearly has not had the same pool of talent to choose from. But the claim that Cody's record since 2016 is quite good ("better than most bar Kiely") in recent years is stretching it a bit. It is, of course, quite disingenuous because not other county has had the same manager for that time for a direct comparison.

But it is maybe an absolute fallacy (Galway and Tipperary have won All Ireland titles, and Waterford have played in two finals for starters). They just happen to have had more than one manager. I also say maybe because some kind of argument probably can be made about League matches/Walsh Cup or something. But what can be said is the claim is irrelevant. So what if Kilkenny have a better record than Clare? Is that now the measure? The record is there for all to see and it's difficult to stand up such a positive interpretation in light of the bare results. Harder still maybe, as some here said, to do so in light of performances.

Now, the burning question is whether given the apparent limitations of the talent pool a new manager will make a significant difference quickly. In recent years the goalkeeper Eoin Murphy said that any year not winning an All Ireland is a failure which is a fairly reductive and maybe unfortunate way to look at things. But the way things are looking there may have to be some serious adjustment to that way of thinking.

JJs Left Hand

Excellent post. I'm under no illusions that a change of manager will bring instant success. I don't think we have the talent for that to happen. Rather a change is needed for Kilkenny to take the first step towards the post-TJ era.

Village87

Rosita wrote: »

Not really when you drill down.

Since beating Waterford in the 2016 semi-final Kilkenny have played 22 championship games and won just 10. That is to say that they are have been more likely to lost than to win or draw.

Five of those 10 wins have come against Dublin, Carlow, or Offaly, teams which either ended up in the Joe MacDonagh or lost to a team from it. Take those games out and you are looking at 5 wins from 17 against teams that would be say top 7 (all teams which were in an All-Ireland s/f in that time). Against Wexford the record in 1 win from 4, against Galway it's 1 from 5. Those are the facts and make raw reading.

There are more opinion-based criticisms of course. You mention losing by a point to Limerick in 2018. For all the difference it makes, it was actually two points, but more interesting is that Limerick scored 24 times from play to Kilkenny's 17. The margin of defeat in the end maybe flattered Kilkenny, and small margins like that really only matter if they imply progress rather than just an ability to jam your finger in the dyke for long enough while TJ Reid buckets out the water that does get in.

The win over Limerick in 2019 was due to massive intensity and Limerick's profligacy and tactical naivete at the time when they tried scoring from huge distances. They were held to 2-10 from play (Kilkenny managed 1-13). Limerick hit that from play in the first half of matches at this stage. It was a one-off unrepeatable performance I think.

The win over Cork was good but we have seen how vulnerable Cork have been against all opposition too. And finally, Kilkenny got of jail against Galway this
year in a game Galway should have closed out. It indicated a resilience (admirable) to stay in a game and take the breaks but it did not necessarily indicate progress in performance.

The subsequent defeat to a middling Waterford team gave a better indication of where Kilkenny are at. There have been highlights in recent years for sure but they have been once-offs relying on the herculean efforts of a few players, and it says a lot that the League Final of 2018 against a team which won 0 from 4 in the following championship is regarded here as one of them.

When Brian Cody took over Kilkenny in late 1998 he had a squad which included players who had won 4 All Ireland minor titles in the previous 10 years (all players then under 28) and by the time he got to 2012 he could say the same thing. The county now has one title in 11 years. The teams he managed at Senior level would at some point have had the pickings of no less than 7 teams which were good enough to win under-21 All Irelands. The county has not won a title in 13 years.

The last two points might be referenced in Cody's credit as he clearly has not had the same pool of talent to choose from. But the claim that Cody's record since 2016 is quite good (better than most bar Kiely") in recent years is stretching it a bit. It is, of course, quite disingenuous because not other county has had the same manager for that time for a direct comparison.

But it is maybe an absolute fallacy (Galway and Tipperary have won All Ireland titles, and Waterford have played in two finals for starters). They just happen to have had more than one manager. I also say maybe because some kind of argument probably can be made about League matches/Walsh Cup or something. But what can be said is the claim is irrelevant. So what if Kilkenny have a better record than Clare? Is that now the measure? The record is there for all to see and it's difficult to stand up such a positive interpretation in light of the bare results. Harder still maybe, as some here said, to do so in light of performances.

Now, the burning question is whether given the apparent limitations of the talent pool a new manager will make a significant difference quickly. In recent years the goalkeeper Eoin Murphy said that any year not winning an All Ireland is a failure which is a fairly reductive and maybe unfortunate way to look at things. But the way things are looking there may have to be some serious adjustment to that way of thinking.

The science behind my arguments. Excellent post. I was listening to Dalys podcast few months back and he was on about the verbals he had with Cody in there matches. Daly commented that Cody would lose it when he mentioned that his grandmother would train that bunch of players to win an all ireland, and was a disgrace that he didn't win more. Daly went on to list the underage success of most the players achieved. Cody always had the talent and superstars. The talent has dried up and our great manager is not so great after all

kilkennyboy

Rosita wrote: »

Not really when you drill down.

Since beating Waterford in the 2016 semi-final Kilkenny have played 22 championship games and won just 10. That is to say that they are have been more likely to lost than to win or draw.

Five of those 10 wins have come against Dublin, Carlow, or Offaly, teams which either ended up in the Joe MacDonagh or lost to a team from it. Take those games out and you are looking at 5 wins from 17 against teams that would be say top 7 (all teams which were in an All-Ireland s/f in that time). Against Wexford the record in 1 win from 4, against Galway it's 1 from 5. Those are the facts and make raw reading.

There are more opinion-based criticisms of course. You mention losing by a point to Limerick in 2018. For all the difference it makes, it was actually two points, but more interesting is that Limerick scored 24 times from play to Kilkenny's 17. The margin of defeat in the end maybe flattered Kilkenny, and small margins like that really only matter if they imply progress rather than just an ability to jam your finger in the dyke for long enough while TJ Reid buckets out the water that does get in.

The win over Limerick in 2019 was due to massive intensity and Limerick's profligacy and tactical naivete at the time when they tried scoring from huge distances. They were held to 2-10 from play (Kilkenny managed 1-13). Limerick hit that from play in the first half of matches at this stage. It was a one-off unrepeatable performance I think.

The win over Cork was good but we have seen how vulnerable Cork have been against all opposition too. And finally, Kilkenny got of jail against Galway this
year in a game Galway should have closed out. It indicated a resilience (admirable) to stay in a game and take the breaks but it did not necessarily indicate progress in performance.

The subsequent defeat to a middling Waterford team gave a better indication of where Kilkenny are at. There have been highlights in recent years for sure but they have been once-offs relying on the herculean efforts of a few players, and it says a lot that the League Final of 2018 against a team which won 0 from 4 in the following championship is regarded here as one of them.

When Brian Cody took over Kilkenny in late 1998 he had a squad which included players who had won 4 All Ireland minor titles in the previous 10 years (all players then under 28) and by the time he got to 2012 he could say the same thing. The county now has one title in 11 years. The teams he managed at Senior level would at some point have had the pickings of no less than 7 teams which were good enough to win under-21 All Irelands. The county has not won a title in 13 years.

The last two points might be referenced in Cody's credit as he clearly has not had the same pool of talent to choose from. But the claim that Cody's record since 2016 is quite good (better than most bar Kiely") in recent years is stretching it a bit. It is, of course, quite disingenuous because not other county has had the same manager for that time for a direct comparison.

But it is maybe an absolute fallacy (Galway and Tipperary have won All Ireland titles, and Waterford have played in two finals for starters). They just happen to have had more than one manager. I also say maybe because some kind of argument probably can be made about League matches/Walsh Cup or something. But what can be said is the claim is irrelevant. So what if Kilkenny have a better record than Clare? Is that now the measure? The record is there for all to see and it's difficult to stand up such a positive interpretation in light of the bare results. Harder still maybe, as some here said, to do so in light of performances.

Now, the burning question is whether given the apparent limitations of the talent pool a new manager will make a significant difference quickly. In recent years the goalkeeper Eoin Murphy said that any year not winning an All Ireland is a failure which is a fairly reductive and maybe unfortunate way to look at things. But the way things are looking there may have to be some serious adjustment to that way of thinking.

Lot in that fair play.
Not that it matters now but 2018 game against limerick followed massive games against galway(replay)and a seven day turnaround. Without wally and colin from what i remember.

Limerick gave up 8 goal chances against Waterford in this year's final
And cork have caused them plenty trouble recently.That is where limerick will be undone.

We have had games like that in the past with galway where they leave you in games and that is to the players credit .

The reference to underage minor success is nearly irrelevant
With change in grade age its nearly the arrabawn.The u20 is better gage of where players are and the fitz.
Where once we dominated college teams with players we now are contributing 1 or 2 .
Looking at our club competitions where are all these players that a new management could mould into a new team.standout forwards are not their ive looked.
Our development squad system is stale with the same people involved for years and where once it was a massive achievement for young lads to be involved its now a bit of a drain.

There could be a change of management when Henry and Tommy are ready .probably when Thomastown are senior and kilkenny camogie
Have defended their All Ireland.
But i am expecting a huge reaction from kilkenny this year.
It might be wishful thinking .

kilkennyboy

Village87 wrote: »

The science behind my arguments. Excellent post. I was listening to Dalys podcast few months back and he was on about the verbals he had with Cody in there matches. Daly commented that Cody would lose it when he mentioned that his grandmother would train that bunch of players to win an all ireland, and was a disgrace that he didn't win more. Daly went on to list the underage success of most the players achieved. Cody always had the talent and superstars. The talent has dried up and our great manager is not so great after all

Tell the lads in Galway that nearly adozen minor all Ireland in last 20 years and 1 all Ireland senior.

Rosita

kilkennyboy wrote: »

Tell the lads in Galway that nearly adozen minor all Ireland in last 20 years and 1 all Ireland senior.

That doesn't really prove that under-age doesn't matter. It just shows it doesn't guarantee anything. Doing without it at all is another matter.

Galway is an outlier. All the successful teams of recent years, Galway themselves, Limerick, Clare, Tipperary, have had decent under-age success. Cork might be a good example of the opposite. No minor title in 20 years, no under 21 in 23 years. And no senior title in 16 years. Hard to imagine there is not some connection.

therealdonster

Village87 - settle it once and for all. What is your agenda here with Cody? Assuming you are a Village club man based on your name, something must have went down for you to be non stop chipping away at him on this forum - for a number of years now. Go on, tell us and be done with it...

kilkennyboy

Rosita wrote: »

That doesn't really prove that under-age doesn't matter. It just shows it doesn't guarantee anything. Doing without it at all is another matter.

Galway is an outlier. All the successful teams of recent years, Galway themselves, Limerick, Clare, Tipperary, have had decent under-age success. Cork might be a good example of the opposite. No minor title in 20 years, no under 21 in 23 years. And no senior title in 16 years. Hard to imagine there is not some connection.

Dublin football 1 minor since 84 .yes 1984 its where they go after minor
5u21 finals since 2012 3W 2L

Cornerback1

Village87 wrote: »

The chap is just not up to it. Years of investment with training,S & C and game time when others could be in there. He is 26 now and never will be up to it. As of the list of lads ready to retire. Paul Murphy, Conor Fogarty, Cillian Buckley, Joey Holden can all move on. They have been poor last 4/5 years. Time to invest in some new blood. This is now an old team and we need to re build IMO

I wonder if lads move on will this not be a blessing in disguise?

Like Cahill in Waterford, starts afresh after clearing out a few of the older lads. Mightn't have went down well at the start but ultimately, was proven correct.

I know it's different with Cody as he's already there but if 4 or 5 lads were to go, that means 4 or 5 new lads in.

Fred Daly

The whole thing seems to be stagnant at the moment, sometimes when a person is in a position for a long time they can get complacent .

formerlyET

Village87 wrote: »

The science behind my arguments. Excellent post. I was listening to Dalys podcast few months back and he was on about the verbals he had with Cody in there matches. Daly commented that Cody would lose it when he mentioned that his grandmother would train that bunch of players to win an all ireland, and was a disgrace that he didn't win more. Daly went on to list the underage success of most the players achieved. Cody always had the talent and superstars. The talent has dried up and our great manager is not so great after all

Listing on the sideline? That's some conversation during a game, did they pull up a stool?
Was that the 4–19 to 0–12 game?

Rosita

kilkennyboy wrote: »

Dublin football 1 minor since 84 .yes 1984

Again, this was not in a vacuum. They went from 1979 to 2012 with only one minor title - 33 years. They went from 1983 to 2011 with only one senior title - 28 years. The correlation is interesting to say the least.

dastardly00

PwC All-Star Hurling nominations 2020 have been announced. Conor Delaney, Padraig Walsh, Conor Browne, TJ Reid and John Donnelly have been nominated. And Eoin Cody has been nominated for YHOY.

Goalkeepers - Stephen O'Keeffe (Waterford), Nickie Quaid (Limerick), Eibhear Quilligan (Clare).

Defenders - Seán Finn, Dan Morrissey, Barry Nash, Diarmaid Byrnes, Declan Hannon, Kyle Hayes (all Limerick); Conor Prunty, Shane McNulty, Calum Lyons, Tadhg de Burcá (all Waterford); Dáithí Burke, Aidan Harte, Pádraic Mannion (all Galway); Conor Delaney, Pádraig Walsh (both Kilkenny); Rory Hayes (Clare), Mark Coleman (Cork), Ronan Maher (Tipperary).

Midfielders - Will O'Donoghue, Cian Lynch (both Limerick), Jamie Barron (Waterford), Tony Kelly (Clare), Michael Breen (Tipperary), Conor Browne (Kilkenny).

Forwards - Gearóid Hegarty, Tom Morrissey, Aaron Gillane, Seamus Flanagan, Graeme Mulcahy (all Limerick); Stephen Bennett, Dessie Hutchinson, Austin Gleeson, Jack Fagan (all Waterford); Brian Concannon, Joe Canning, Conor Whelan, Cathal Mannion (all Galway); TJ Reid, John Donnelly (both Kilkenny); Donal Burke (Dublin); Cathal Malone (Clare); Shane Kingston (Cork)

PwC GAA/GPA Young Hurler of the Year nominees Jake Morris (Tipperary), Eoin Cody (Kilkenny), Iarlaith Daly (Waterford).

PwC GAA/GPA Hurler of the Year nominees Gearóid Hegarty (Limerick), Tony Kelly (Clare), Stephen Bennett (Waterford)

Mad about baa baas

This whole debate is becoming embarrassing.. cody is here this year and we should get behind him and the team
We have lads not willing to give cody any credit for winning because the team are exceptional .yet those same lads are blaming cody entirely for lack of recent success..while at the same time naming and shaming several players who are just not up to it
The trend of players improving due to lack of game time is also continuing..Darren Mullen I'd fast becoming the second coming of christ.. it's a change from Chris bolger and John Walsh I suppose ..

Alonzo Moseley

Mad about baa baas wrote: »

This whole debate is becoming embarrassing.. cody is here this year and we should get behind him and the team
We have lads not willing to give cody any credit for winning because the team are exceptional .yet those same lads are blaming cody entirely for lack of recent success..while at the same time naming and shaming several players who are just not up to it
The trend of players improving due to lack of game time is also continuing..Darren Mullen I'd fast becoming the second coming of christ.. it's a change from Chris bolger and John Walsh I suppose ..

I don't see this forum's purpose to act as a cheerleader for Cody come what may and refrain from any clear concerns on his management methodology
I use it to get information on Kilkenny hurling (I got helpful answers on both John Power and Diarmuid Cody in the past week) and to air a few observations which readers can take or leave.

I will attend matches (hopefully) and support Kilkenny wholeheartedly no matter who lines out or who mans the sideline

Cody has had his back slapped off him for 22 years, there is no fear he will ever not get his due.
Also, the man has consistently said he never reads anything anywhere about himself or his team, so I think we are safe that he isn't out in Sheestown fuming over anything we are discussing.

One final point
You make a point of criticising some posters for "naming and shaming" certain Kilkenny hurlers, but then proceed to do the exact same to three other Kilkenny hurlers.
?

benji79

Ger Alyward calling it a day now I see

tbiggertycome

Heard three more along with Aylward have been let go from the panel Enda Morrissey, Bill Sheehan and Luke Scanlon.

Mad about baa baas

Alonzo Moseley wrote: »

I don't see this forum's purpose to act as a cheerleader for Cody come what may and refrain from any clear concerns on his management methodology
I use it to get information on Kilkenny hurling (I got helpful answers on both John Power and Diarmuid Cody in the past week) and to air a few observations which readers can take or leave.

I will attend matches (hopefully) and support Kilkenny wholeheartedly no matter who lines out or who mans the sideline

Cody has had his back slapped off him for 22 years, there is no fear he will ever not get his due.
Also, the man has consistently said he never reads anything anywhere about himself or his team, so I think we are safe that he isn't out in Sheestown fuming over anything we are discussing.

One final point
You make a point of criticising some posters for "naming and shaming" certain Kilkenny hurlers, but then proceed to do the exact same to three other Kilkenny hurlers.
?

I didn't Express an opinion as to how good or bad I felt those 3 players are..I merely stated that their stature grew with lack of games which I feel is an odd and common problem with many threads on this forum
I also am not for back slapping anyone but think its unfair that he gets no credit for winning but lots of blame for losing..for what its worth I think he probably should have stepped aside but now that he hasn't theres no point in what ifs..

JJs Left Hand

Best of luck to Aylward. Regardless of anything else he turned up year after year and he'll always have 2015 where he was immense

kilkennyboy

Though finish to Gers career. Came back from acl and just couldn't recapture 2015 form where he was best corner forward in the country.
As they say in America. Thank you for your service.