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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail
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Pot calling kettle black.
He's saying - quite understandably - that as SF is now the only party pushing the expansion of the WRC, it is fair to associate them with the project, not as bogey men but as proponents.
Jeekers, I love the way some folks like to lick each other like shared choc ices on this forum.0 -
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The standard of posting in this thread is well below what we expect around here - I expect it to improve going forward otherwise I'll have to start handing out further sanctions.
- Moderator0 -
Press release From: The Western Rail Trail campaign May 20th 2020 for immediate release: 546 words (main body text)
• Government negotiating teams denied access to Rail Report following freedom of information appeal to Ombudsman.
• Ombudsman says: “release of a report paid for by public monies would serve the public interest”
• Department of Transport and former TD Shane Ross continue to deny access of report to public and government negotiating teams.
The ombudsman has upheld a Freedom of Information decision by The Department of Transport Tourism and Sport (DTTAS) to withhold a report completed by EY Consulting assessing the economic viability of re-opening the closed railway which runs from Athenry to Claremorris, the so-called ‘western rail corridor.’ The report commissioned in early 2019 cost half a million Euro and was delivered to the DTTAS in November 2019, but its findings have not been made public. A freedom of information request filed by the Western Rail Trail Campaign to the DTTAS last November asking for a copy of the report was refused. The FOI decision was appealed to the Ombudsman in February of this year.
The Western Rail Trail Campaign argues that the closed railway route could be utilised as a greenway protecting the railway route in public ownership until such time as a railway might be possible.
After an extensive review of the case the Ombudsman senior investigation officer, Elizabeth Dolan decided the report could not be released on legal grounds to comply with one section of the Freedom of Information legislation. (Section 29 of the FOI Act)
Brendan Quinn of the Western Rail Trail Campaign said ‘The ombudsman decision came as no surprise on legal grounds; however it was what the Ombudsman stated in her judgement that is much more important.’ She said that ‘release of report would serve this public interest.’*(page 6 FOI report)
Quinn added ‘The EY consulting report cost the taxpayer half a million Euro and the Ombudsman agreed with that part of our appeal which highlighted the cost of the report, and the right of the public to see how their money had been spent. This is confirmed in her judgement.’
‘I also accept that the release of a report paid for by public monies would serve the public interest in ensuring accountability for that expenditure.’* (page 6 FOI report)
The key issue is that the negotiating teams in the Programme for Government are being denied this information on the instruction of a Government Minister, Shane Ross, who is no longer a TD. The report is being denied to all the negotiators, the Green Party, FF and FG members. We are aware that the Green Party has asked for the report but the former TD Shane Ross has blocked access.
Parties with a particular interest in sustainable transport are being asked to sign up to a government while being denied information on the viability of certain transport routes.
The former TD who is still Minister could release the report tomorrow but refuses to do so. In our view, this judgement means the Minister is knowingly acting against the public interest. We know this cannot go on forever as the ombudsman not only said releasing the report would serve the public interest but also added:
‘I would not accept that the report is permanently exempt under section 29’ *(page 7 FOI report)
Quinn concluded ‘The Ombudsman clearly believes it is in the public interest for this report to be released but was constrained legally by the FOI Act. It makes you wonder about the public interest; is it honesty and decency or using the nuances of the law to supress information that is in the public interest. What on earth is going on?’
*direct quotes from case number OIC-61162-L2X4Y0
Copy attached to this press release and also available on Facebook pages of:
Sligomayogreenway campaign
The Quiet Man Greenway campaign
Kiltimagh Greenway Group
ENDS: body text 543 words Contacts: contact via SligoMayogreenway on facebook0 -
While I agree with their aims and the publication of the report, they do themselves no favours by repeatedly pointing out Shane Ross is no longer a TD. It gives the impression they're following the Gemma O'Doherty school of making up your own laws and claiming they're binding. However crap his decisions are; legally Ross is still a minister, so deal with it.0
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The flipside of being in office on a caretaker basis is that you're not supposed to do anything controversial or that would be unlikely to command a Dail majority (because a caretaker can't be booted out on a no-confidence motion)
Shame on Shane Ross but it's far from the first time I've felt that sentiment :mad:
Really the report can't be any skin off his nose at this stage no matter what is in it, so is someone leaning on him? Do FG know ('unofficially' of course) that it torpedoes the idea of rail, but they want to keep that quiet to string along some independents with yet more promises of 'studies' or 'reviews' ?Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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Hotblack Desiato wrote: »The flipside of being in office on a caretaker basis is that you're not supposed to do anything controversial or that would be unlikely to command a Dail majority (because a caretaker can't be booted out on a no-confidence motion)
Shame on Shane Ross but it's far from the first time I've felt that sentiment :mad:
Really the report can't be any skin off his nose at this stage no matter what is in it, so is someone leaning on him? Do FG know ('unofficially' of course) that it torpedoes the idea of rail, but they want to keep that quiet to string along some independents with yet more promises of 'studies' or 'reviews' ?
Prime time investigates would have a field day....0 -
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The terms of reference for the rail review in 2018 stated the appraisal would be reviewed by both DTTaS and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and an independent body. Have these occured yet? If not the report will not be released.
I know it makes great press releases and pulling one or two quotes from the FOI appeal that suit an agenda is great but it's misleading. Making it sound like there is something untoward about it all the time without stating that it was known the report would be reviewed prior to publication is misleading. Yes it's taking longer than we would all like, yes we all want to see the report but in fairness between the elections and now COVID maybe there are more important things than reviewing the report.0 -
ShaneC1600 wrote: »The terms of reference for the rail review in 2018 stated the appraisal would be reviewed by both DTTaS and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and an independent body. Have these occured yet? If not the report will not be released.
I know it makes great press releases and pulling one or two quotes from the FOI appeal that suit an agenda is great but it's misleading. Making it sound like there is something untoward about it all the time without stating that it was known the report would be reviewed prior to publication is misleading. Yes it's taking longer than we would all like, yes we all want to see the report but in fairness between the elections and now COVID maybe there are more important things than reviewing the report.
Using Covid and the election as an excuse is not acceptable, Ross should have commissioned this report a long time beforehand and we would be beyond all this now, he didn't even commission it until early 2019 and on a few occasions the likes of Galway Coco on the eve of important votes on the greenway were misled to believe it was imminent, delaying it was all part of the game of kick the can. I was well aware under the terms of section 29 of the FOI act it would be withheld but had no idea the ombudsman would say several times in her report it would be in the public interest to release it, anyone would use those quotes to their advantage. Ross would be well able to say enough is enough I am going to release, but he hasn't, he has reasons only known to himself. Who knows where he has taken his orders from on this one. We don't know what is in the report, it may say the railway is the best idea since sliced bread, but both sides of this debate should be allowed to see what this much demanded for independent report actually says; the most telling comment from the ombudsman is that she will not allow it to be buried forever even if the review does not happen at some point because of the comments in this judgement it will be published. God only knows what it is going to say, my actual primary forecast is that it will be a fudge and we will all be left in limbo with nothing happening which will of course suit those who want to stop the greenway at all costs.
As for referring to the former TD sure don't you know that is all part of the wind up, he is a former TD who is still a minister, and reminding folk of this fact is just a way of saying why do we have to put up this from someone who is no longer a TD. The constitution as ever is to blame!0 -
greenway = gimmick. Don't become ensnared by it, at the risk of losing years of your life.0
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Lord Glentoran wrote: »It may be a gimmick but it has a purpose. The status quo of car commuting and scattered one off housing monetising otherwise unproductive land must be preserved at all costs.
I'm not a fan of one-off housing, nor do I believe a greenway from Athenry to Milltown solves any issue related to commuting.0 -
Lord Glentoran wrote: »It may be a gimmick but it has a purpose. The status quo of car commuting and scattered one off housing monetising otherwise unproductive land must be preserved at all costs.
LG can I ask you a serious question do you really think a commuter service that can at best deliver 4 to 5 up trains a day and the same number of down trains between Claremorris to Athenry will be transformative in patterns of going to to work in the west of Ireland? Really do you think it will make any difference to the society we live in?
Oh and BTW I completely agree with you about scattered one off housing, totally and utter disaster but re-opening this railway will make no difference to what has gone before us. What the Greenway might do is help those in one off housing less dependent on the car for short journies into local communities, too see friends and family and serve to connect one off housing in a non car based mode of transport. For example if you live say 2 miles outside of a town near this greenway what is stop your teenage children cycling to school, the GAA pitch or just to see their mates, that is what we did on safe roads when we were kids? or nipping into town yourself on your newly purchased electric bike, or just using it for your daily stroll, or taking out children in buggies or wheelchair users on its low gradient path, it is these micro actions that I genuinely believe could benefit the West of Ireland, its not just about tourism economic benefits on the Atlantic Economic Corridor, it is about local benefits and the way people live as well.0 -
LG can I ask you a serious question do you really think a commuter service that can at best deliver 4 to 5 up trains a day and the same number of down trains between Claremorris to Athenry will be transformative in patterns of going to to work in the west of Ireland? Really do you think it will make any difference to the society we live in?
Oh and BTW I completely agree with you about scattered one off housing, totally and utter disaster but re-opening this railway will make no difference to what has gone before us. What the Greenway might do is help those in one off housing less dependent on the car for short journies into local communities, too see friends and family and serve to connect one off housing in a non car based mode of transport. For example if you live say 2 miles outside of a town near this greenway what is stop your teenage children cycling to school, the GAA pitch or just to see their mates, that is what we did on safe roads when we were kids? or nipping into town yourself on your newly purchased electric bike, or just using it for your daily stroll, or taking out children in buggies or wheelchair users on its low gradient path, it is these micro actions that I genuinely believe could benefit the West of Ireland, its not just about tourism economic benefits on the Atlantic Economic Corridor, it is about local benefits and the way people live as well.
With all due respect WT how do you work out what the timetable of any service would be? These decisions would be made by the NTA in conjunction with IE. It strikes me that what you are trying to do here is to make a wild assumption about any service levels to try and undermine the whole concept of a railway service which in my opinion is the entire basis of your campaign.
You then throw in some sweet rosy little scenarios that are sweet and positive, but a simple path would achieve what you are looking for here.
I know well that railway supporters get a lot of demands here to make their claims stand up but on any level of scrutiny your many claims about what a rail service would look like and how the land could be used simply don’t stand up.0 -
With all due respect WT how do you work out what the timetable of any service would be? These decisions would be made by the NTA in conjunction with IE. It strikes me that what you are trying to do here is to make a wild assumption about any service levels to try and undermine the whole concept of a railway service which in my opinion is the entire basis of your campaign.
I think is a fair assumption that the service levels on a single track rural railway line will be little more than six trains a day max, actually probably over-generous an estimate. it will certainly be no more than Ennis-Athenry.You then throw in some sweet rosy little scenarios that are sweet and positive, but a simple path would achieve what you are looking for here.
Your tone is slightly patronising however the scenario I presented is actually how people live their lives. Your reference to a simple path is all well and good, what kind of simple paths have you seen on country roads in Ireland, we don't do footpaths in rural Ireland, born out in latest stats on road fatalities an astonishing amount is of pedestrians on our roads. All we are asking for is what you call a simple path along the closed railway route.I know well that railway supporters get a lot of demands here to make their claims stand up but on any level of scrutiny your many claims about what a rail service would look like and how the land could be used simply don’t stand up.
You are not wrong there about Railway supporters needing to make their claims stand up. Here is a simple level of scrutiny, do you think the frequency and level of service on Claremorris/Athenry would be any better than say Ennis/Athenry a single track line through rural Ireland on any level of scrutiny would be highly unlikely to have more than six up and down trains a day. Would the service become a claremorris to Limerick service with all change at Athenry for Galway/Dublin. Do think IE could roster for two separate service one from the North of the line to Galway one from the south of the line to Galway, do yo think this duplicated service could be used on the single track into Galway from Athenry. Do you call six trains a day up and down the line commuter service? I don't. When it comes to scrutiny the failings in the arguments to extend north of Athenry are as wide open as a barn door. As for How the land could be used? Well if it was used for a greenway Take a look at Waterford Greenway as a case study on how it could stand up.
We tend to disagree on this, but obviously I find my own arguments a lot more compelling,which is why I persist in making them. I also accept I may be deemed to be completely wrong and the management consulting brains at EY consulting may not have listened to the presentation I made to them, I really don't mind if I lose that argument and see if they have recommended this railway should be built to save the west. I would be surprised but I am prepared to look at what they said if we would only be allowed to do so.0 -
greenway = gimmick. Don't become ensnared by it, at the risk of losing years of your life.
This "gimmick" is working very well in several other parts of the country, using an otherwise abandoned state asset for the benefit of local people, small business, and tourism
The real gimmick of course was creating the grandiose title of "Western Rail Corridor" in the first place, and then some eejit created a Wikipedia page for it with a cross-sectional diagram of a double-track TGV line (!) as an illustration of what they expected would be built :rolleyes:Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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Hotblack Desiato wrote: »This "gimmick" is working very well in several other parts of the country, using an otherwise abandoned state asset for the benefit of local people, small business, and tourism
The real gimmick of course was creating the grandiose title of "Western Rail Corridor" in the first place, and then some eejit created a Wikipedia page for it with a cross-sectional diagram of a double-track TGV line (!) as an illustration of what they expected would be built :rolleyes:
Do you want hear another gimmick and ersatz phrase that has crept into the save the west voice:
Atlantic Economic Corridor it just fits in perfectly with the crayon drawing on maps that some folks get upto. It was created out of thin air and has no become part of the body politic mumbo jumbo talk. Sure I think a job was created for Michael Ring on this one he was head of the AEC something or other group in the last Dail and Lord Ross's mate Sean Canney was on that committee, guess what they saw the WRC as a the panacea for the west!0 -
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- All we are asking for is what you call a simple path along the closed railway route.
- ..do yo think this duplicated service could be used on the single track into Galway from Athenry.
- A simple path shouldn't be an obstacle - it's a light Works and reversible. Should the messiah appear and shower us with trains, it could technically be undone and revert to Permanent Way. There is literally no downside
- Actually, that's an issue that doesn't get enough coverage: the entire Galway-Dublin line should be a double line.
Ode To The Motorist
“And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road”
0 - All we are asking for is what you call a simple path along the closed railway route.
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Hotblack Desiato wrote: »This "gimmick" is working very well in several other parts of the country, using an otherwise abandoned state asset for the benefit of local people, small business, and tourism
yes, in areas that seem to actually have something to offer.
i see nothing between athenry and mayo that would be worth someone's time when they could go to waterford or around kerry, places of actual beauty.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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Do you want hear another gimmick and ersatz phrase that has crept into the save the west voice:
Atlantic Economic Corridor it just fits in perfectly with the crayon drawing on maps that some folks get upto. It was created out of thin air and has no become part of the body politic mumbo jumbo talk. Sure I think a job was created for Michael Ring on this one he was head of the AEC something or other group in the last Dail and Lord Ross's mate Sean Canney was on that committee, guess what they saw the WRC as a the panacea for the west!
The Atlantic Economic Corridor concept is a good one. Linking all the economic assets on the western seaboard and providing good infrastructure to them. Cork-Limerick-Shannon-Ennis-Galway-Sligo-Letterkenny and nearby Tralee, Killarney, Tuam, Mayo towns etc. Also Foynes Port, Shannon Airport, Cork Airport, Ringaskiddy Port, Knock Airport.
Such a concept requires good quality road connectivity. It doesn't have the population, population density, business cluster sizes nor the distance for rail connecitivity. "Climate action" isn't going to change this.
One of the problems in the west of Ireland is that train filled dreams are distracting people in power from the actual solutions to make the place more prosperous. I heard a Sinn Fein person on the radio last year saying that the number one infrastructure requirement in the west of Ireland was a fully electrified rail line from Sligo to Rosslare via Limerick.
Absolutely bonkers stuff.
Thankfully there are some others in the required agencies thinking differently - http://www.sligococo.ie/N17KCAEC0 -
- A simple path shouldn't be an obstacle - it's a light Works and reversible. Should the messiah appear and shower us with trains, it could technically be undone and revert to Permanent Way. There is literally no downside
- Actually, that's an issue that doesn't get enough coverage: the entire Galway-Dublin line should be a double line.
You are dead right there about double tracking Galway Dublin or at least having a lot more passing loops, certainly double tracking Athlone Galway would allow for Commuter stopping service Athlone - Galway and an express train that bypassed intermediary stops. If the rail lobbyists had been campaigning for that many of us would have given our full support over the years.
Re the simple path not being an obstacle to future trains we have said this all along.....0 -
end of the road wrote: »yes, in areas that seem to actually have something to offer.
i see nothing between athenry and mayo that would be worth someone's time when they could go to waterford or around kerry, places of actual beauty.
the old no scenery argument! haven't heard it for a while, West on Track used that about the idea of a greenway on the Mayo section, then they fully backed the idea of a velorail through the bog on the closed railway at Kiltimagh, then low and behold claimed the WRC would help tourism, sure why would tourists buy tickets for a train journey when there is nothing to see out the windows!
What about the idea that some people just want a long distance network of greenways so they can enjoy the simple pleasure of cycling through the countryside unhindered by spectacular scenery and only having the birds and bees to keep you company.0 -
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The Atlantic Economic Corridor concept is a good one. Linking all the economic assets on the western seaboard and providing good infrastructure to them. Cork-Limerick-Shannon-Ennis-Galway-Sligo-Letterkenny and nearby Tralee, Killarney, Tuam, Mayo towns etc. Also Foynes Port, Shannon Airport, Cork Airport, Ringaskiddy Port, Knock Airport.
Such a concept requires good quality road connectivity. It doesn't have the population, population density, business cluster sizes nor the distance for rail connecitivity. "Climate action" isn't going to change this.
One of the problems in the west of Ireland is that train filled dreams are distracting people in power from the actual solutions to make the place more prosperous. I heard a Sinn Fein person on the radio last year saying that the number one infrastructure requirement in the west of Ireland was a fully electrified rail line from Sligo to Rosslare via Limerick.
Absolutely bonkers stuff.
Thankfully there are some others in the required agencies thinking differently - http://www.sligococo.ie/N17KCAEC
There is a railway connection from Sligo to Rosslare. It is not electrified, but it is there. No direct service because there is no demand.
Any idea why they want it to go via Limerick? It would be a longer way round.0 -
What the Greenway might do is help those in one off housing less dependent on the car for short journies into local communities, too see friends and family and serve to connect one off housing in a non car based mode of transport. For example if you live say 2 miles outside of a town near this greenway what is stop your teenage children cycling to school, the GAA pitch or just to see their mates, that is what we did on safe roads when we were kids? or nipping into town yourself on your newly purchased electric bike, or just using it for your daily stroll, or taking out children in buggies or wheelchair users on its low gradient path, it is these micro actions that I genuinely believe could benefit the West of Ireland, its not just about tourism economic benefits on the Atlantic Economic Corridor, it is about local benefits and the way people live as well.
I wouldn't over idealise that idea....
1) The Government policy regarding greenways can be found on gov.ie
They are discribed at tourism product, not local cycle infrastrucuture. They really are all about tourism. Just read the link there.
2) Between Abbeyknockmoy and the turn for Ballyglunin, the gov have already funded and built cycle infrastructure
3) I've been attending a fair few cross group cycling strategy meetings regarding cycling infrastructure in the west. I mentioned the Quietman greenway, and some folk involved in Galway Cycle Bus remarked that when they were invited to Westport to develop a cyclebus they discovered local school kids didn't use it for their cycle commute to school. They said the gap between greenways & towns is pretty bad.
From my experience, and I've been in cycling advocacy for about four years now, most 'everyday cycling' advocates would not support you in your view at all! We'd like if it did, but I don't think the old railway line links as much as you're imagining.
Irishcycle.com have a few articles here & here on the matter.0 -
I wouldn't over idealise that idea....
1) The Government policy regarding greenways can be found on gov.ie
They are discribed at tourism product, not local cycle infrastrucuture. They really are all about tourism. Just read the link there.
2) Between Abbeyknockmoy and the turn for Ballyglunin, the gov have already funded and built cycle infrastructure
3) I've been attending a fair few cross group cycling strategy meetings regarding cycling infrastructure in the west. I mentioned the Quietman greenway, and some folk involved in Galway Cycle Bus remarked that when they were invited to Westport to develop a cyclebus they discovered local school kids didn't use it for their cycle commute to school. They said the gap between greenways & towns is pretty bad.
From my experience, and I've been in cycling advocacy for about four years now, most 'everyday cycling' advocates would not support you in your view at all! We'd like if it did, but I don't think the old railway line links as much as you're imagining.
Irishcycle.com have a few articles here & here on the matter.
There are a few areas where cycling commuting will be enhanced by the WRT.
All the schools in tuam lie close to it, and st attractas college in tubbercurry has a cycle path linking it to the old railway. I remember hearing a figure of up to 500 students who could commute to school by bike in that location alone.
But you're right, the biggest pluses around this project will be leisure and tourism.0 -
I wouldn't over idealise that idea....
1) The Government policy regarding greenways can be found on gov.ie
They are discribed at tourism product, not local cycle infrastrucuture. They really are all about tourism. Just read the link there.
2) Between Abbeyknockmoy and the turn for Ballyglunin, the gov have already funded and built cycle infrastructure
3) I've been attending a fair few cross group cycling strategy meetings regarding cycling infrastructure in the west. I mentioned the Quietman greenway, and some folk involved in Galway Cycle Bus remarked that when they were invited to Westport to develop a cyclebus they discovered local school kids didn't use it for their cycle commute to school. They said the gap between greenways & towns is pretty bad.
From my experience, and I've been in cycling advocacy for about four years now, most 'everyday cycling' advocates would not support you in your view at all! We'd like if it did, but I don't think the old railway line links as much as you're imagining.
Irishcycle.com have a few articles here & here on the matter.
This is an excellent argument against the re-instatement of the railway also.0 -
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