Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

donvito99

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

A hardcore of posters on Boards don’t want more train services, because they deem rail to be unusually wasteful That seems to be the obvious one alright.

I wouldn't interpret opposition to the WRC as opposition to rail.

Lord Glentoran

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

A hardcore of posters on Boards don’t want more train services, because they deem rail to be unusually wasteful That seems to be the obvious one alright.

Not at all. I, for one, am all for double tracking Galway-Dublin, removal of level junctions, faster trains, etc etc. I've been a occasional user of the Galway-Dublin line for many years and will do for many more

A single track line, with crap speeds, to sparsely populated areas, costing a fortune to build, costing even more to keep running, providing a low frequency service, with slower travel times than can be achieved by a bus/car...... yeah sorry, never going to get much support for that beyond a few anoraks

ShaneC1600

This element of the review was written into the terms of reference as most know. The fact that it is taking so long is frustrating but until it is completed the report will not be available, again as most of the people constantly requesting it know. Why would SC request it to be published when he knows that element of the review is not completed? And as for the "leaks", it's easy see where they started, but they look more like wishful thinking.

Lord Glentoran

donvito99 wrote: »

I wouldn't interpret opposition to the WRC as opposition to rail.

That’s a charitable interpretation.

westtip

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

A hardcore of posters on Boards don’t want more train services, because they deem rail to be unusually wasteful That seems to be the obvious one alright.

Honestly I do wonder sometimes, "hardcore" "don't want more trains" you have a vivid imagination LG perhaps supporters of WRC could be described as living in fantasy land. I don't recall seeing any anti-rail arguments from supporters of an alternate use of the line, what I have seen is pragmatic realism, Hardly hard core anti rail sentiments. Each to their own; I find your view tres bizarre and somewhat lacking in any level of rational thinking.

Sligo eye

westtip wrote: »

Honestly I do wonder sometimes, "hardcore" "don't want more trains" you have a vivid imagination LG perhaps supporters of WRC could be described as living in fantasy land. I don't recall seeing any anti-rail arguments from supporters of an alternate use of the line, what I have seen is pragmatic realism, Hardly hard core anti rail sentiments. Each to their own; I find your view tres bizarre and somewhat lacking in any level of rational thinking.

There’s a great search facility on boards. Search for the user “westtip” on this board and you’ll see plenty of anti rail guff in the results.

Lord Glentoran

westtip wrote: »

Honestly I do wonder sometimes, "hardcore" "don't want more trains" you have a vivid imagination LG perhaps supporters of WRC could be described as living in fantasy land. I don't recall seeing any anti-rail arguments from supporters of an alternate use of the line, what I have seen is pragmatic realism, Hardly hard core anti rail sentiments. Each to their own; I find your view tres bizarre and somewhat lacking in any level of rational thinking.

https://youtu.be/oYOZ3IzRaf4

donvito99

I think as DaCor has said, the opposition to the proposal in this thread comes from people who don't want to see a miserable railway service spread even thinner, and also people who recognise the inherent advantages and disadvantages of rail in the 21st century and on that basis question the virtues of this project.

Lord Glentoran

donvito99 wrote: »

I think as DaCor has said, the opposition to the proposal in this thread comes from people who don't want to see a miserable railway service spread even thinner, and also people who recognise the inherent advantages and disadvantages of rail in the 21st century and on that basis question the virtues of this project.

The problem is that if a minimalist attitude to rail is taken, it reinforces rural and suburban sprawl. Galway city and county is going to slide even further into the miasma of little America anti-planning. Of course, if sprawl suits landowners as a means of quickly cashing in...

donvito99

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

The problem is that if a minimalist attitude to rail is taken, it reinforces rural and suburban sprawl. Galway city and county is going to slide even further into the miasma of little America anti-planning. Of course, if sprawl suits landowners as a means of quickly cashing in...

I don't see how rail wouldn't also induce sprawl and reinforce the idea that towns should be commuter satellites to Galway.

westtip

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

I find your press releases hilarious. “A spokesman”. Do you get a podium out in your bedroom and film it on a selfie stick?

Really is that your view of life? whatever the spokesperson or even spokesman says it seems to work, and if you have written any press releases (and aside from this project I have written thousands in my life) it is an accepted from of presentation of views to the media, who by the way frequently call me for interviews on this subject after bashing our a press release for further quotes and interviews and soundbites for news items; Anyway the protocols of writing press releases aside, what I do find is that most of our press releases get coverage, sometimes minimal sometimes a lot and the media seems to accept them as credible, but hey ho your opinions are always amusing if nothing else, oh and real names have to be taken out of press releases put up on boards to apply the rules of this forum........as the spokesperson was saying.....hey ho on we go....

westtip

Sligo eye wrote: »

There’s a great search facility on boards. Search for the user “westtip” on this board and you’ll see plenty of anti rail guff in the results.

"Guff" - foolish talk or ideas is one of the definitions, indeed Sligo Eye it is a word I would associate with a great deal of what you write yourself, but we are all entitled to an opinion, that is the beauty of this rather trivial debate. Still it's nice to see you back here making your contribution.

ShaneC1600

donvito99 wrote: »

I think as DaCor has said, the opposition to the proposal in this thread comes from people who don't want to see a miserable railway service spread even thinner, and also people who recognise the inherent advantages and disadvantages of rail in the 21st century and on that basis question the virtues of this project.

Many of the railway supporters also don't want a miserable railway service spread even thinner. Many would like to see proper infrastructure develope and that line opend up the northwest to Galway city, Limerick and Dublin.
What are the disadvantages of rail in the 21st century? Rail in general or just rail in Ireland or even just rail in the west of ireland?

monument

Sligo eye wrote: »

There’s a great search facility on boards. Search for the user “westtip” on this board and you’ll see plenty of anti rail guff in the results.

Read the charter before posting again.

-- moderator

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

I find your press releases hilarious. “A spokesman”. Do you get a podium out in your bedroom and film it on a selfie stick?

This is off-topic and it's a strange thing to focus on -- it's a bog standard term used in press releases by companies, groups etc.

-- moderator

donvito99

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Many of the railway supporters also don't want a miserable railway service spread even thinner. Many would like to see proper infrastructure develope and that line opend up the northwest to Galway city, Limerick and Dublin.
What are the disadvantages of rail in the 21st century? Rail in general or just rail in Ireland or even just rail in the west of ireland?

I should have used limitations rather than disadvantages.

Railways are no longer the only game in town, when once they were just about the only way to get around over long distances. Today, they are useful at moving large quantities of people or goods, typically over long distances, and should continually be built for this purpose as it is more efficient in the long run.

I think we can all agree that the area the WRC proposes to serve is fantastically low density. As such, a motorway - from Cork to Sligo, the Atlantic Corridor as it was billed I believe back in the Transport 21 days - would be a much better prospect for economic development and society than a railway.

monument

I'll be unpopular here and reject the positions of both of sides on this.

The sure roads are better people really are not learning from mistakes made here as well as the US or UK. And the tide might be changing on the heyday of large-scale road building: ie "New roads face Heathrow-style court action threat" https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51665682 etc.

WRC supporters who are suggesting what at best seems like an unrealistic proposals, which are too much driven from the perspective of villages, people wanting too many stops, and a route going via County Donegal rather than via Enniskillen and Omagh or further south going via villages rather than via Castlebar and Ballina. There's little right of way left north of Kiltimagh and less so north of Charlestown, and so if you're starting from scratch you might as well do Ballina to Sligo. Even including those places would be a stretch and need a Government with real vision for turning mid/small sized towns into much larger places (much like the Dutch did decades ago).

If you think having more vision on rail than currently exists is just dreaming, you have a problem if you're also still suggesting a Cork-Sligo motorway. If you're not a climate change denier you as as bad as them. Economic growth based on more and more roads is not compatible with the emission reductions which are needed. We don't have time to switch all cars to electric cars, electric cars aren't that green and large-scale road building is really not green.

donvito99

monument wrote: »

I'll be unpopular here and reject the positions of both of sides on this.

The sure roads are better people really are not learning from mistakes made here as well as the US or UK. And the tide might be changing on the heyday of large-scale road building: ie "New roads face Heathrow-style court action threat" https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51665682 etc.

We can still build high quality roads and not make the mistakes that have been made here, as well as in the UK, US and all over the world.

If you think having more vision on rail than currently exists is just dreaming, you have a problem if you're also still suggesting a Cork-Sligo motorway. If you're not a climate change denier you as as bad as them. Economic growth based on more and more roads is not compatible with the emission reductions which are needed. We don't have time to switch all cars to electric cars, electric cars aren't that green and large-scale road building is really not green.

I'm not suggesting more and more roads, and in doing that it's absurd to say I am as bad as a climate change denier.

Is there some other way we are going to move people and goods efficently into, out of and around the West of Ireland that does not involve the use of roads?

monument

donvito99 wrote: »

We can still build high quality roads and not make the mistakes that have been made here, as well as in the UK, US and all over the world.

I'm not suggesting more and more roads, and in doing that it's absurd to say I am as bad as a climate change denier.

Is there some other way we are going to move people and goods efficently into, out of and around the West of Ireland that does not involve the use of roads?

You are suggesting builing roads is better than rail, you might not be suggesting more and more roads but the next person will be. The problem is that road building cannot get away from this:

donvito99

I'm quite aware of this phenomenon Monument. That's why I would support widespread road pricing to discourage the long distance commute we see in Dublin.

But you still haven't addressed the need for good quality roads enabling safe and quick transport over long distances? What is the alternative to decent roads?

Looking into the future, the "new normal" that will be coming our way.
We could see less need for transport systems of any kind in the near future.


We have really reached a point in life where business are being forced to look again at what is important and which jobs "must" be done in the head office as there has been an enforced working from home whenever possible regime in place, many of those jobs may remain permanently "off site", thus reducing transport needs indefinitely.

ShaneC1600

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Loooking into the future, the "new normal" that will be coming our way.
We could see less need for transport systems of any kind in the near future.


We have really reached a point in life where business are being forced to look again at what is important and which jobs "must" be done in the head office as there has been an enforced working from home whenever possible regime in place, many of those jobs may remain permanently "off site", thus reducing transport needs indefinetely.

I’m afraid you might be right. The new normal could look like the now for a substantial amount of time. Until future traffic volumes are established nothing will happen, and that’s assuming the powers that be decide to spend on infrastructure.

Grandeeod

There are recessions and then there are recessions like this current one that has arrived quicker that a fooking bullet train into Tokyo. I'm following so many Rail based infrastructure threads and some of the crap being posted is genuinely incredible even when "positive" posters are reminded of the absolute financial meltdown that awaits us. Ireland has just spent the cost of Metrolink in 3 months.:eek: We will be spending even more over the coming year and all on keeping our head above the water line.

Of course if this magic money at cheap borrowing rates continues, there'll be so much other stuff in the queue that the WRC will be so far down as to make it more irrelevant than a fart in the wind.

marno21

monument wrote: »

You are suggesting builing roads is better than rail, you might not be suggesting more and more roads but the next person will be. The problem is that road building cannot get away from this:

That graphic isn't really relevant to roadbuilding in Ireland atm. It's very applicable to widening the M50 or building a second M50 further out. It's not relevant in most of the roads being built in Ireland, which are technically the first engineered roads along the applicable route.

The three major road projects of the next 10 years in Connacht are*:

1. N5 Westport-Turlough (25km)
2. N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge (34km)
3. N17 Knock-Collooney (55km)

For the majority of the existing roads relevant above, they are 19th century roads built for donkey and carts that have progressively had tarmac thrown on them. They run through villages, around twisty corners, are not properly horizontally or vertically aligned, have plenty of accesses and junctions etc. All of these contribute to significant safety issues.

The roadbuilding will mean that these routes have routes designed for efficient motorised transport. Not just cars, but public transport (buses) and trucks also. Transport of freight is key to economic development in the areas these roads are running through. This point is often made about the N5. If the N5 isn't upgraded it disconnects Mayo from the primary port of the country and makes manufacturing in Mayo difficult. There is a balance between environmentalism and regional equality here that needs to be struck.

The N17 project is key here because it would make the Tuam-Collooney rail link totally redundant. An N17 dual carriageway would provide a corridor for efficient inter city bus services.

* I have omitted the M6 Galway Ring Road here because it is a debatable piece of infrastructure and not inter urban like the others.

westtip

marno21 wrote: »

The three major road projects of the next 10 years in Connacht are*:

1. N5 Westport-Turlough (25km)
2. N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge (34km)
3. N17 Knock-Collooney (55km)

Agree with all you say would add to the "in Connacht" list the Mullingar-Longford DC, of course not in Connacht but of critical importance for Supply chain and good express bus links to the west. The endless debate about the WRC is tiresome and needs to be finally put to bed and put out of its misery.

Just within Connacht would also dearly like to see Sligo-Bundoran done as well a dangerous and busy road. Would not even have to be DC, Bundoran bypass standard would be fine but realise they only do DC for these upgrades now. Get on with them all and this debate on opening a winding Victorian alignment of a closed railway would come to an end.

intellectual dosser

westtip wrote: »

Agree with all you say would add to the "in Connacht" list the Mullingar-Longford DC, of course not in Connacht but of critical importance for Supply chain and good express bus links to the west. The endless debate about the WRC is tiresome and needs to be finally put to bed and put out of its misery.

Just within Connacht would also dearly like to see Sligo-Bundoran done as well a dangerous and busy road. Would not even have to be DC, Bundoran bypass standard would be fine but realise they only do DC for these upgrades now. Get on with them all and this debate on opening a winding Victorian alignment of a closed railway would come to an end.

Its not even to Bundoran though is it, and in the previous post its not even from Knock.

Its basically the Northern border of Co. Sligo to the Southern border of Co. Sligo. Their TDs over the past three decades have a lot to answer for in terms of the lack of infrastructure.

westtip

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Its not even to Bundoran though is it, and in the previous post its not even from Knock.

Its basically the Northern border of Co. Sligo to the Southern border of Co. Sligo. Their TDs over the past three decades have a lot to answer for in terms of the lack of infrastructure.

Yep you are dead right it is just the road within Sligo really, Yes the TDs up here needed to apply regional pressure.

ShaneC1600

So it is acceptable for over a billion euro to be spent on roads connecting the likes of Knock (population approx 1000) with Collooney (population approx 1600) and Westport (population approx 6500) to by pass Castlebar? Funny how all these are acceptable if the greenway gets the green light. What was/is the economic benefit of these roads? All of the individual roads projects cost substantially more than the railway but that's no problem.
I am not against or objecting to the roads projects in any way, just observing the different mindset people have towards the two project types.

donvito99

I think it is because it stands to reason that motorways move goods in Ireland quickly and efficiently and offer this over vast areas whereas railways at present only do this coincidentally i.e. a couple of locations that happen to sit on top of the line that want to move stuff to a location that also happens to sit on the line.

Why would someone in Ballina put a container on a train at, say, Claremorris to be taken to, say, Ringaskiddy when you could just drive it on a lorry from Ballina to the port on a motorway? The former is complicated and slow, the latter is straightforward and direct.

Figerty

Deleted User wrote: »

Looking into the future, the "new normal" that will be coming our way.
We could see less need for transport systems of any kind in the near future.


We have really reached a point in life where business are being forced to look again at what is important and which jobs "must" be done in the head office as there has been an enforced working from home whenever possible regime in place, many of those jobs may remain permanently "off site", thus reducing transport needs indefinitely.

have we also reached the point where people are willing to share space on a train, bus etc (planes included) with others or will prefer to go in the safer envirornment of a car where they control access.

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/The-Spanish-Flu-pandemic-of-1918/

Figerty

Figerty wrote: »

have we also reached the point where people are willing to share space on a train, bus etc (planes included) with others or will prefer to go in the safer envirornment of a car where they control access.

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/The-Spanish-Flu-pandemic-of-1918/

It is likely that there will be a short-term aversion to public transport, but this will be the same aversion to being in public spaces that are crowded. It's hard to imagine people suddenly switching to cars as they simply won't have anywhere to park them at the other end (just imagine an extra few thousand car commuters arriving in town).


Some jobs will become permanently home based with frequent tripe to the "mother-ship" for management to maintain control - unless that factor also changes.