Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail

Muckyboots

Greaney wrote: »

Thank you. I left the discussion for a while there because it was not very constructive.

So, as many of ye know, There's a group called the Ballyglunin Railway Project, and they've been working away for years to restore the station which was used in the film 'The Quiet Man', (Many folk under 30 don't know it, but it's a John Wayne & Maureen O' Hara classic).


They support the railway and hope it will open some day, so meanwhile they're making sure it's the prettiest station in Ireland. They'll be having an 'open day' in 'Castletown Station' on Thursday the 22nd of August from 10-6 with pop up tea rooms etc.

It'd be great if one day the Belmond Grand Hibernian could stop there one day. I know the Athenry to Limerick line is a much prettier journey than Galway to Dublin

Prettiest station in Ireland- but still no train. It will make a nice cafe someday for the Quiet Man Greenway and the tea rooms will be permanent and not "pop up".

Isambard

eastwest wrote: »

It appears to be a Facebook page for the Quiet Man Greenway, which will run from Athenry to Milltown.

not the same project then? Bit confusing

westtip

Isambard wrote: »

not the same project then? Bit confusing

No not the same project. The Ballyglunin project is just about the station there, apparently the organising committee of Ballyglunin station have given public statements about supporting the railway. I also understand that quite a lot of the people involved in the project are actually firm supporters of the Quiet Man Greenway and are not too happy with the committee. It is probably one of these local politics issues, the local TD from the Ballyglunin area Sean "pass me the Menu" Canney could well have had undue influence on the committee. I don't think the committees submission to EY consulting asking for the trains to come back will have too much influence but who knows. If a good restaurant opened in the Ballyglunin Station Pass me the Menu Canney, could become one of its greatest patrons.

serfboard

westtip wrote: »

The Ballyglunin project is just about the station there, apparently the organising committee of Ballyglunin station have given public statements about supporting the railway. I also understand that quite a lot of the people involved in the project are actually firm supporters of the Quiet Man Greenway and are not too happy with the committee.

The Station Revival project would be well advised to stay out of the argument - whichever side "wins", the station will be needed regardless and thus the revival project is justified.

CatInABox

serfboard wrote: »

The Station Revival project would be well advised to stay out of the argument - whichever side "wins", the station will be needed regardless and thus the revival project is justified.

Yeah, that's some political naivety on show there, just come out with a statement that you support the use of the rail line for any purpose and you'd get the support of all sides, now they've stepped into the middle of an entrenched fight with no idea of when it's all going to be resolved.

Greaney

Sigh, In fairness, they've every right to their opinion without being blasted at all. They're real people who've put in years of work into restoring the station and they'll put in more. The announcement came because they choose to put in a submission when Irish Rail were doing their public consultation. If folk felt differently than the group, they could submit individually. Everyone has a voice and the attitude that anyone who disagrees better keep quiet is nonsense.

I posted the event and not one person said, 'oh, that's worth attending', so it kinda doesn't matter what many people think if they don't actually ever intend on visiting Ballyglunin. I would like to pop out to this event. It looks good. Next week is heritage week and it's a great opportunity for small communities to get a teeny bit of funding and showcase what they've got. It'd be nice to cycle out maybe for some (30km round trip is too much for me) but hey... put yer money where your mouth is

Lord Glentoran

serfboard wrote: »

The Station Revival project would be well advised to stay out of the argument - whichever side "wins", the station will be needed regardless and thus the revival project is justified.

That reads a bit “butt out, this is our argument” to me.

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

Isambard wrote: »

not the same project then? Bit confusing

No not the same project. The Ballyglunin project is just about the station there, apparently the organising committee of Ballyglunin station have given public statements about supporting the railway. I also understand that quite a lot of the people involved in the project are actually firm supporters of the Quiet Man Greenway and are not too happy with the committee. It is probably one of these local politics issues, the local TD from the Ballyglunin area Sean "pass me the Menu" Canney could well have had undue influence on the committee. I don't think the committees submission to EY consulting asking for the trains to come back will have too much influence but who knows. If a good restaurant opened in the Ballyglunin Station Pass me the Menu Canney, could become one of its greatest patrons.

As long as he wasn't paying himself, presumably?

eastwest

eastwest wrote: »

westtip wrote: »

Isambard wrote: »

not the same project then? Bit confusing

No not the same project. The Ballyglunin project is just about the station there, apparently the organising committee of Ballyglunin station have given public statements about supporting the railway. I also understand that quite a lot of the people involved in the project are actually firm supporters of the Quiet Man Greenway and are not too happy with the committee. It is probably one of these local politics issues, the local TD from the Ballyglunin area Sean "pass me the Menu" Canney could well have had undue influence on the committee. I don't think the committees submission to EY consulting asking for the trains to come back will have too much influence but who knows. If a good restaurant opened in the Ballyglunin Station Pass me the Menu Canney, could become one of its greatest patrons.

As long as he wasn't paying himself, presumably?

There is always the issue of who is seen to have helped acquire grants, and a local TD will usually be helped to claim credit by the minister in charge. So there may be an element within the committee of being seen to appease a TD who might be of further use.
It's not just politicians who play politics!

Grandeeod

Isambard wrote: »

well the train would need a dynamic envelope of not much more than 10 feet and the formation is well over 50 feet in most places so go figure, or ,mayb e you can't see the fences and walls?

I've seen the fences and walls. I've also seen the embankments, grass cuttings and rock cuttings and the bridges on some embankments, If the Greenway wants to share the alignment, then the cost of the Greenway will be a lot higher if it wants to run along side. Every Greenway in Ireland has run along the original railway alignment. But yet again the WRC strives to be different and even a Greenway will cost more than it should.

I am not a supporter of the WRC and I'm completely indifferent to a Greenway along it. However, to suggest that a Greenway can run along side the railway, makes the Greenway, just as big a folly as reopening the railway, because of cost and associated works to make it happen. Either put the Greenway over the alignment as it is or forget about this utterly stupid idea that it can be put in beside it. At this stage both sides look as bad as each other.

Isambard

Grandeeod wrote: »

I've seen the fences and walls. I've also seen the embankments, grass cuttings and rock cuttings and the bridges on some embankments, If the Greenway wants to share the alignment, then the cost of the Greenway will be a lot higher if it wants to run along side. Every Greenway in Ireland has run along the original railway alignment. But yet again the WRC strives to be different and even a Greenway will cost more than it should.

I am not a supporter of the WRC and I'm completely indifferent to a Greenway along it. However, to suggest that a Greenway can run along side the railway, makes the Greenway, just as big a folly as reopening the railway, because of cost and associated works to make it happen. Either put the Greenway over the alignment as it is or forget about this utterly stupid idea that it can be put in beside it. At this stage both sides look as bad as each other.

A greenway does not have to adhere to the same gradients as a rail line and can therefore run at the foot of embankments or along the top of cuttings if required. It can be gauntleted with a rail line where necessary with an appropriate warning system if desired, perhaps along the lines of a pedestrian crossing.
The point is it can be done several ways, but until people stop with the reasons why it can't be done, it won't happen. A compromise is what's needed

Isambard

Isambard wrote: »

A greenway does not have to adhere to the same gradients as a rail line and can therefore run at the foot of embankments or along the top of cuttings if required. It can be gauntleted with a rail line where necessary with an appropriate warning system if desired, perhaps along the lines of a pedestrian crossing.
The point is it can be done several ways, but until people stop with the reasons why it can't be done, it won't happen. A compromise is what's needed

Compromise with who? The owners have no interest in running trains on it

Isambard

compromise between the greenway people and the people who so far have successfully blocked the greenway. They aren't going to go away, a way around their objections has to be found.

eastwest

Isambard wrote: »

compromise between the greenway people and the people who so far have successfully blocked the greenway. They aren't going to go away, a way around their objections has to be found.

The blocking of the greenway has been effective up to now because the anti-greenway campaign has been able to promise an iminent railway that will solve everything from unemployment to the price of beef, and councillors (who either cannot add or who think that another ennis athenry stunt can be pulled) have gone along with this narrative.
Once the rail review is finished, and even with the further delays of peer reviewing (what a pity that didn't happen with ennis athenry) and political foostering, that will be the end of it for about a decade, until some other lunatic resurrects it again as a panacea for the ills of the west. In the interim, the greenway will get built, piecemeal and slowly, and will create economic activity and jobs where neither exist at present. And like waterford, the opposing politicians will be the ones in their baggy suits, jostling to get in the photos and on TV.

Muckyboots

Any news on the "as is reasonably practicable" velo/cycle/rail, still €300,00 in the red, 12-year lease with no trains, eventually joining into Claremorris, we can have tourist projects on the rail line in Mayo- but you can't in Galway, if it hasn't a saddle- it's not a bike, we'll join dots all the way to Sligo but we admit it will never happen, delighted we lost the An Board Pleanala battle with Brendan Quinn project ?
https://www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/30842-an-bord-pleanala-insist-planning-required-for-velo-rail-project-in-kiltimagh

Lord Glentoran

Muckyboots wrote: »

Any news on the "as is reasonably practicable" velo/cycle/rail, still €300,00 in the red, 12-year lease with no trains, eventually joining into Claremorris, we can have tourist projects on the rail line in Mayo- but you can't in Galway, if it hasn't a saddle- it's not a bike, we'll join dots all the way to Sligo but we admit it will never happen, delighted we lost the An Board Pleanala battle with Brendan Quinn project ?
https://www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/30842-an-bord-pleanala-insist-planning-required-for-velo-rail-project-in-kiltimagh

Today’s news is that no-one has put any money into the Noteworthy investigation to this, to date.

Only proposal so far to have zero funding.

eastwest

Muckyboots wrote: »

Any news on the "as is reasonably practicable" velo/cycle/rail, still €300,00 in the red, 12-year lease with no trains, eventually joining into Claremorris, we can have tourist projects on the rail line in Mayo- but you can't in Galway, if it hasn't a saddle- it's not a bike, we'll join dots all the way to Sligo but we admit it will never happen, delighted we lost the An Board Pleanala battle with Brendan Quinn project ?
https://www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/30842-an-bord-pleanala-insist-planning-required-for-velo-rail-project-in-kiltimagh

Not a whisper from Kiltimagh on this one lately.

Greaney

I popped down to the Ballyglunin for their Heritage Week event. There were about 50+ folk there in the two hours after Lunch. Gosh, it's a lovely building and has huge ceilings. I drove from Athenry as I really wouldn't have the legs to have cycled the 30km round trip, Also I had my sister (disabled) nephew and a friend in the car. On the way there, I spotted about 4km cycle path between Abbeyknockmoy and Ballyglunin. It was from the Village to the top of the Ballyglunin road (about 2km away from the station). The river is slowmoving and wide (blue way?)

I was bold enough to ask folk about why they wanted rail and here are their reasons...
1) Since 50% of all workers in Galway city live in the county, they mostly work in Galway and have to run two cars. If they had a train they'd only need one. A car is €4k-€6k to run per year. A rail ticket is less than €1.5k
2) There's no secondary school on Ballyglunin so the children have to go to Athenry or Tuam. No public transport means it's expensive or they've very little choice in either schools or hobbies.
3) Students cannot afford to live in Galway due to rent, and cannot afford cars. There's no public transport from Ballyglunin whatsoever, so they really struggle, sometimes renting in Athenry and get the train from there to college.
4) The residents were under no illusion about Ballyglunins tourism potential. They honestly think there's not much. Their one tourism attraction (glamping) has been shut down by the fire officer.
5) Ballyglunin lost it's post-office over a year ago. The committee are looking to the future & their old age. A train would mean they're less isolated.

Finally, two car loads of us (at least) had visited from Athenry to support them. We believe there should be rail in future. We think the train service we have is amazing and support mass transit. We also love to cycle and are involved in some cycling projects (leisure & transit, not sport) but think we should be looking at alternatives to ripping up the rail to cycle to our neighbouring parishes.

eastwest

Greaney wrote: »

I popped down to the Ballyglunin for their Heritage Week event. There were about 50+ folk there in the two hours after Lunch. Gosh, it's a lovely building and has huge ceilings. I drove from Athenry as I really wouldn't have the legs to have cycled the 30km round trip, Also I had my sister (disabled) nephew and a friend in the car. On the way there, I spotted about 4km cycle path between Abbeyknockmoy and Ballyglunin. It was from the Village to the top of the Ballyglunin road (about 2km away from the station). The river is slowmoving and wide (blue way?)

I was bold enough to ask folk about why they wanted rail and here are their reasons...
1) Since 50% of all workers in Galway city live in the county, they mostly work in Galway and have to run two cars. If they had a train they'd only need one. A car is €4k-€6k to run per year. A rail ticket is less than €1.5k
2) There's no secondary school on Ballyglunin so the children have to go to Athenry or Tuam. No public transport means it's expensive or they've very little choice in either schools or hobbies.
3) Students cannot afford to live in Galway due to rent, and cannot afford cars. There's no public transport from Ballyglunin whatsoever, so they really struggle, sometimes renting in Athenry and get the train from there to college.
4) The residents were under no illusion about Ballyglunins tourism potential. They honestly think there's not much. Their one tourism attraction (glamping) has been shut down by the fire officer.
5) Ballyglunin lost it's post-office over a year ago. The committee are looking to the future & their old age. A train would mean they're less isolated.

Finally, two car loads of us (at least) had visited from Athenry to support them. We believe there should be rail in future. We think the train service we have is amazing and support mass transit. We also love to cycle and are involved in some cycling projects (leisure & transit, not sport) but think we should be looking at alternatives to ripping up the rail to cycle to our neighbouring parishes.

But if there is zero chance of a railway? Nobody is going to build a railway to bring a few kids to school; there us already a motorway, and buses are cheaper and more flexible.

CatInABox

eastwest wrote: »

But if there is zero chance of a railway? Nobody is going to build a railway to bring a few kids to school; there us already a motorway, and buses are cheaper and more flexible.

Yeah, I'm a public transport supporter, and think that this line should be opened eventually, or one built to serve the needs of the west better, but there's about 100 more deserving and more needed projects out there before this one.

eastwest

CatInABox wrote: »

eastwest wrote: »

But if there is zero chance of a railway? Nobody is going to build a railway to bring a few kids to school; there us already a motorway, and buses are cheaper and more flexible.

Yeah, I'm a public transport supporter, and think that this line should be opened eventually, or one built to serve the needs of the west better, but there's about 100 more deserving and more needed projects out there before this one.

That's the nub of this whole debate. The only way that the wrc will be leapfrogged over dozens of other more deserving projects is by a parish pump style political stroke. That's what happened with ennis athenry, and wot are banking on it happening again, but they're wrong.
If it was going to happen, Sean Canney's effective holding of the balance of power during the government formation process would have made it happen, but there was no way DTTAS was going to be caught twice with building a white elephant based on spurious data. Hence the 'concession' of a professional rail review that is designed to bring out the facts and bury this nonsense for once and for all. The sop for Canney was to delay the process to get him past the next election, so he got that much, and he can spin it enough to scrape back in.
But it won't affect the outcome of the review. The numbers just don't stack up. As you rightly said, there are too many deserving transport issues ahead of this one.

Lord Glentoran

CatInABox wrote: »

Yeah, I'm a public transport supporter, and think that this line should be opened eventually, or one built to serve the needs of the west better, but there's about 100 more deserving and more needed projects out there before this one.

One hundred rail projects? Frankly we’ll be lucky to get one in the next decade, and that the two threatened lines remain intact.

ohographite

Isambard wrote: »

compromise between the greenway people and the people who so far have successfully blocked the greenway. They aren't going to go away, a way around their objections has to be found.

I would really like to see a railway running from Galway, through Sligo, to Northern Ireland. I would, however, like to see a greenway as well, following a similar route. I've been following discussions on this topic for years, and I have an idea that could potentially achieve both things. It might not be supported by either the railway or the greenway side, but here it is anyway:


When the new road is built from Tuam to Northern Ireland, build it very straight and level, so then a railway with achievable good speeds could be built right alongside the road(on the same cuttings, embankments, underpasses etc.) and the railway could rejoin the original western rail corridor alignment in towns where stations would reopen, e.g. Claremorris and Tobbercurry.
The railway could continue north of Sligo to Northern Ireland, where there are larger population centres. I think this would make a railway much more viable(better speeds, higher population in the north), and it would leave most of the western rail corridor alignment north of tuam free to be converted to greenway if West on Track like the idea and stop blocking the greenway(I don't know if they will like it).

Lord Glentoran

ohographite wrote: »

I would really like to see a railway running from Galway, through Sligo, to Northern Ireland. I would, however, like to see a greenway as well, following a similar route. I've been following discussions on this topic for years, and I have an idea that could potentially achieve both things. It might not be supported by either the railway or the greenway side, but here it is anyway:


When the new road is built from Tuam to Northern Ireland, build it very straight and level, so then a railway with achievable good speeds could be built right alongside the road(on the same cuttings, embankments, underpasses etc.) and the railway could rejoin the original western rail corridor alignment in towns where stations would reopen, e.g. Claremorris and Tobbercurry.
The railway could continue north of Sligo to Northern Ireland, where there are larger population centres. I think this would make a railway much more viable(better speeds, higher population in the north), and it would leave most of the western rail corridor alignment north of tuam free to be converted to greenway if West on Track like the idea and stop blocking the greenway(I don't know if they will like it).

That is a very good idea, but I have my well-founded doubts that Official Ireland and Official Northern Ireland will ever make that happen.

CatInABox

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

One hundred rail projects? Frankly we’ll be lucky to get one in the next decade, and that the two threatened lines remain intact.

Metrolink, Dart Expansion, four tracking the lines into Dublin, reducing the ridiculous amount of level crossings up and down the country, two tracking more lines in the rest of the country, building light rail and commuter rail in Cork, building commuter rail in Galway and Limerick.

That's just off the top of my head, and all of those would drive a bigger increase in ridership than the WRC. I'm not against the WRC at all, and think that there should be a rail link along the west, but it's simply not as important as other projects. I also don't think that an alignment laid down decades upon decades ago reflects the best use of funds down there. I think that if a WRC is built, it'd be better to go with a new alignment that'll allow for a much schedule and all round better service.

Note that I'm not saying that a WRC must avoid the current alignment, I'd reuse where it makes sense, but some of it right now simply doesn't make sense.

Isambard

CatInABox wrote: »

Metrolink, Dart Expansion, four tracking the lines into Dublin, reducing the ridiculous amount of level crossings up and down the country, two tracking more lines in the rest of the country, building light rail and commuter rail in Cork, building commuter rail in Galway and Limerick.

That's just off the top of my head, and all of those would drive a bigger increase in ridership than the WRC. I'm not against the WRC at all, and think that there should be a rail link along the west, but it's simply not as important as other projects. I also don't think that an alignment laid down decades upon decades ago reflects the best use of funds down there. I think that if a WRC is built, it'd be better to go with a new alignment that'll allow for a much schedule and all round better service.

Note that I'm not saying that a WRC must avoid the current alignment, I'd reuse where it makes sense, but some of it right now simply doesn't make sense.

that's the sort of thinking that would have made the Ennis to Athenry line much better. Had they spent more and avoided the worst defects of the route and avoided the reversal, they could have had a much more usable Limerick to Galway link that could compete with the motorway. They didn't and we're stuck with a rural backwater.

dowlingm

Isambard wrote: »

that's the sort of thinking that would have made the Ennis to Athenry line much better. Had they spent more and avoided the worst defects of the route and avoided the reversal, they could have had a much more usable Limerick to Galway link that could compete with the motorway. They didn't and we're stuck with a rural backwater.

"How do you get from Gort to Galway by train?"

"Well, first you go to Athenry..."
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Gort+Railway+Station,+Station+Road,+Lavally,+Gort,+County+Galway,+Ireland/Athenry+Railway+Station,+Old+Church+Street,+Gorteenacra,+Athenry,+County+Galway,+Ireland/@53.1843026,-8.9192483,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x485b8353a71524bf:0xe2fab3e965bb3b2e!2m2!1d-8.8150291!2d53.0663943!1m5!1m1!1s0x485b8916a246a05f:0x62f082d54b0936eb!2m2!1d-8.7484962!2d53.3019296!3e3

A new route via Clarinbridge would have betrayed the will of the (four) people who wanted to go from Charlestown to Ardrahan on a yearly basis.

Del.Monte

Just how much do you think going via Clarenbridge on a totally new alignment would have cost? Also it would then mean that trains going from Limerick to Tuam and points north would have to go to Galway first - utter tripe.

Greaney

eastwest wrote: »

But if there is zero chance of a railway? Nobody is going to build a railway to bring a few kids to school; there us already a motorway, and buses are cheaper and more flexible.

Just something to think about.... Galway was so gridlocked Tuesday, it took the Oranmore bus 1 hour & 20 mins. Since it's 6 miles to Oranmore, we can take it that the average speed of the bus was just over 13.3 miles per hour.

Our traffic is getting worse. we really have to take mass transit seriously and stop throwing buses out there as the solution to all our traffic & travel chaos. I've long suspected those that do, drive a lot more than they take any other mode of transport.

Lord Glentoran

Greaney wrote: »

Just something to think about.... Galway was so gridlocked Tuesday, it took the Oranmore bus 1 hour & 20 mins. Since it's 6 miles to Oranmore, we can take it that the average speed of the bus was just over 13.3 miles per hour.

Our traffic is getting worse. we really have to take mass transit seriously and stop throwing buses out there as the solution to all our traffic & travel chaos. I've long suspected those that do, drive a lot more than they take any other mode of transport.

Throwing bike lanes into the mix will be like throwing a sausage up the aisle of a cathedral.