Ulster Bank League 2018-2019 Talk/Gossip/Rumours

D14Rugby

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Always will be players missing and as much will be plenty of j1s playing...

I meant J1 as in the visa...

The Lost Sheep

D14Rugby wrote: »

I meant J1 as in the visa...

I know but still wont be that many missing. maybe odd 1/2

D14Rugby

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I know but still wont be that many missing. maybe odd 1/2

I know multiple clubs that have 5/6 starters missing on J1s

D14Rugby

Apparently UCD have been absolutely decimated by key departures

Stainalert

D14Rugby wrote: »

Apparently UCD have been absolutely decimated by key departures

Who have they lost? Jamie Glynn to Terenure, assume Loughman is gone somewhere in Munster? Anyone else?

D14Rugby

Stainalert wrote: »

Who have they lost? Jamie Glynn to Terenure, assume Loughman is gone somewhere in Munster? Anyone else?

Glynn, Loughman, Dardis, Byrne Jr, off top of my head, there's definitely more I'm forgetting

Stainalert

D14Rugby wrote: »

Stainalert wrote: »

Who have they lost? Jamie Glynn to Terenure, assume Loughman is gone somewhere in Munster? Anyone else?

Glynn, Loughman, Dardis, Byrne Jr, off top of my head, there's definitely more I'm forgetting

Where is Dardis gone? 
Who is Byrne Jr? Ed Byrne?
Believe McNulty is going to New York to play in the USMLR

GavMan

Stainalert wrote: »

Where is Dardis gone? 
Who is Byrne Jr? Ed Byrne?
Believe McNulty is going to New York to play in the USMLR

Probably referring to Harry Byrne. Younger brother of Ross Byrne

Tarf1234

Stainalert wrote:

Who have they lost? Jamie Glynn to Terenure, assume Loughman is gone somewhere in Munster? Anyone else?

Hadn't heard about Glynn - good signing for Nure

D14Rugby

Stainalert wrote: »

Where is Dardis gone? 
Who is Byrne Jr? Ed Byrne?
Believe McNulty is going to New York to play in the USMLR

He's finished his studies and focusing on 7s I believe, may sign with someone for the paperwork but doubt he'll play much.
Harry Byrne.

Glynn to nure is interesting, backs aren't really their problem it's front row

stellenbosch

D14Rugby wrote: »

Apparently UCD have been absolutely decimated by key departures

So have Trinity-Courtney/Ryan/Finlay/Fromm/McDermott/Lloyd/Bollard/M Kelly/Burke/St Ledger/Mollen/Byrne/Pim/Dixon x 2- thats 15 players!

But T Smeeth will rebuild as he always does.

Stainalert

stellenbosch wrote: »

D14Rugby wrote: »

Apparently UCD have been absolutely decimated by key departures

So have Trinity-Courtney/Ryan/Finlay/Fromm/McDermott/Lloyd/Bollard/M Kelly/Burke/St Ledger/Mollen/Byrne/Pim/Dixon x 2- thats 15 players!

But T Smeeth will rebuild as he always does.

Where did Fromm, St Ledger & Pim go?

stellenbosch

Stainalert wrote: »

Where did Fromm, St Ledger & Pim go?

Fromm finished in Trinity and back to Germany to study medicine/Pim finished in Trinity and off to Hong Kong to play for a year and St Ledger still away-might play but probably not in T i am hearing

awec

Stainalert wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/opposition-from-clubs-sees-irfu-withdraw-ail-revamp-plans-37252101.html

The wording of the statement is interesting. Almost like they are saying they had their chance, but ultimately the IRFU will get what they want.

The Lost Sheep

stellenbosch wrote: »

So have Trinity-Courtney/Ryan/Finlay/Fromm/McDermott/Lloyd/Bollard/M Kelly/Burke/St Ledger/Mollen/Byrne/Pim/Dixon x 2- thats 15 players!

But T Smeeth will rebuild as he always does.

Joys of being a university club. Always has and always will be revolving door.

awec wrote: »

The wording of the statement is interesting. Almost like they are saying they had their chance, but ultimately the IRFU will get what they want.

Maybe. What would you want in place?

Tarf1234

Stainalert wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/opposition-from-clubs-sees-irfu-withdraw-ail-revamp-plans-37252101.html

That sounds so ominous. Phrases like honest attempt and may be far less palatable would make me think this is going to turn into if you don't like what we offered we'll give you nothing or worse.

ArmchairQB

Wouldn't be worried to much about universities. Trinity & UCD will have over 70 training most of all who think they will be playing Senior or starting on 20s 1st team. Will be interesting especially in Trinity when they realise they will be on the 2nd string teams. Very easy to attract players in Universeties when some offer CAo point and both offer accomadation and scholarships to most that are of €1,500 per year. Still amazes me as to why if all in the same league are rules not the same for all. With the talent they attract they should be doing far better than they do each year. Love to see how long they would last outside of University bubble as coaches in 2a or b with only a fraction of the resources

The Lost Sheep

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Wouldn't be worried to much about universities. Trinity & UCD will have over 70 training most of all who think they will be playing Senior or starting on 20s 1st team. Will be interesting especially in Trinity when they realise they will be on the 2nd string teams. Very easy to attract players in Universeties when some offer CAo point and both offer accomadation and scholarships to most that are of €1,500 per year. Still amazes me as to why if all in the same league are rules not the same for all. With the talent they attract they should be doing far better than they do each year. Love to see how long they would last outside of University bubble as coaches in 2a or b with only a fraction of the resources

Yeah universities will be fine. They get huge numbers training as you say. Can have players all doing gym sessions together early morning before classes and then no issues compared to many clubs. How many do offer CAO as Trinity certainly dont. Yes there is discrepancies in the rules re univeristies but how would you change it. Yes they can attract very talented players but still by and large all players are early 20s and that bit younger/inexperienced so i wouldnt ever expect them to be challenging to win the league.

ArmchairQB

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Yeah universities will be fine. They get huge numbers training as you say. Can have players all doing gym sessions together early morning before classes and then no issues compared to many clubs. How many do offer CAO as Trinity certainly dont. Yes there is discrepancies in the rules re univeristies but how would you change it. Yes they can attract very talented players but still by and large all players are early 20s and that bit younger/inexperienced so i wouldnt ever expect them to be challenging to win the league.

Yeah Trinity do not offer Cao points, UCD NUIM do and advertise it. All offera minimum €1,500 "scholarship" most offer top players access to on campus accomadation some get free accomadation or subsidised accomadation. A disproportionate percentage of rugby players compared to ordinary students get access to cheaper on campus accomadation which in Trinitys case also applies to DIT students that play for them. If it was my child availing of it I would be delighted and glad of it. I do think there is a place for full scholarships for the elite athletes in any sport including rugby but not 60 rugby players a year. The main problem as I see it is that by receiving the smaller €1500 scholarship they beleive they are elite but only a few make the top side in their University and they tend to give up on rugby and quit the game as they become disillusioned with the game. I would restrict the amount or elimante altogether the smaller scholarships which means more of the so called or perceived average players go to a club or stay with their original club if possible and play rugby and stay involved. I do beleive the €1500 scholarship turns many a young lads head and they love telling mates they are on a rugby scholarship to Trinity / UCD /NUIM /UCC/ UL etc but when they don't reach the heights they expect they quit rather than stay on or play elsewhere. University is a great experience and good to play for your university but the numbers going in and not coming out to play rugby are decreasing every year. 60 or 70 new go in every year but only 15/20 if even leave every year and play rugby after their degree with a smaller fraction maybe staying on once course is complete. Union and provinces turn a blind eye so unlikely anything will change

stellenbosch

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Yeah Trinity do not offer Cao points, UCD NUIM do and advertise it. All offera minimum €1,500 "scholarship" most offer top players access to on campus accomadation some get free accomadation or subsidised accomadation. A disproportionate percentage of rugby players compared to ordinary students get access to cheaper on campus accomadation which in Trinitys case also applies to DIT students that play for them. If it was my child availing of it I would be delighted and glad of it. I do think there is a place for full scholarships for the elite athletes in any sport including rugby but not 60 rugby players a year. The main problem as I see it is that by receiving the smaller €1500 scholarship they beleive they are elite but only a few make the top side in their University and they tend to give up on rugby and quit the game as they become disillusioned with the game. I would restrict the amount or elimante altogether the smaller scholarships which means more of the so called or perceived average players go to a club or stay with their original club if possible and play rugby and stay involved. I do beleive the €1500 scholarship turns many a young lads head and they love telling mates they are on a rugby scholarship to Trinity / UCD /NUIM /UCC/ UL etc but when they don't reach the heights they expect they quit rather than stay on or play elsewhere. University is a great experience and good to play for your university but the numbers going in and not coming out to play rugby are decreasing every year. 60 or 70 new go in every year but only 15/20 if even leave every year and play rugby after their degree with a smaller fraction maybe staying on once course is complete. Union and provinces turn a blind eye so unlikely anything will change

Trinity DO NOT OFFER any reduced cost accomodation to any player.

D14Rugby

Trinity give priority for accommodation and financial reimbursement depending on the scholarship level

stellenbosch

D14Rugby wrote: »

Trinity give priority for accommodation and financial reimbursement depending on the scholarship level

They 100 per cent do not

D14Rugby

stellenbosch wrote: »

They 100 per cent do not

They 100% do

https://www.tcd.ie/Sport/scholarships/information.php

The Lost Sheep

D14Rugby wrote: »

They 100% do

https://www.tcd.ie/Sport/scholarships/information.php

Thats the Trinity scholarships. DUFC award additional scholarships, funded externally by them, which is the main number of rugby scholarships and they dont give priority for accomodation with them

D14Rugby

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Thats the Trinity scholarships. DUFC award additional scholarships, funded externally by them, which is the main number of rugby scholarships and they dont give priority for accomodation with them

And did I say Trinity or DUFC?

Squidgy Black

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Thats the Trinity scholarships. DUFC award additional scholarships, funded externally by them, which is the main number of rugby scholarships and they dont give priority for accomodation with them

30 DUFC players received the trinity scholarship last year.

There are additional scholarships funded externally, but 30 is a hell of a lot.

The Lost Sheep

Squidgy Black wrote: »

30 DUFC players received the trinity scholarship last year.

There are additional scholarships funded externally, but 30 is a hell of a lot.

Most of those are funded externally and arent directly funded by the university but by rugby club through bank of ireland scheme.
http://www.universitytimes.ie/2017/10/trinitys-sport-scholarships-still-leave-a-lot-to-be-desired/

Squidgy Black

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Most of those are funded externally and arent directly funded by the university but by rugby club through bank of ireland scheme.
http://www.universitytimes.ie/2017/10/trinitys-sport-scholarships-still-leave-a-lot-to-be-desired/

Externally funded but they still fall under the Trinity Scholars program, where they get the same perks incl priority for accomodation and access to the High Performance resources.

There's additional "scholarships" on top of the 30 given by the college as well. These cover DIT and NCI also, who are both eligible to play for Trinity as a university. But they're more bursaries than anything.

The Lost Sheep

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Externally funded but they still fall under the Trinity Scholars program, where they get the same perks incl priority for accomodation and access to the High Performance resources.

There's additional "scholarships" on top of the 30 given by the college as well. These cover DIT and NCI also, who are both eligible to play for Trinity as a university. But they're more bursaries than anything.

They dont get perks about accommodation. Trinity doesnt have enough accommodation to be able to offer that many spaces for sports scholars especially with issues around accomodation in the city for students

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Most of those are funded externally and arent directly funded by the university but by rugby club through bank of ireland scheme.
http://www.universitytimes.ie/2017/10/trinitys-sport-scholarships-still-leave-a-lot-to-be-desired/

So if the rugby club and not the university are funding these scholarships surely this is in breach of regulation 6?

Squidgy Black

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

They dont get perks about accommodation. Trinity doesnt have enough accommodation to be able to offer that many spaces for sports scholars especially with issues around accomodation in the city for students

If they're based outside of Dublin they get priority on the list. You're talking maybe 10 out of the 30 awarded.

There's no discount or anything. This comes from a friend who was promised it upon accepting his CAO offer.

D14Rugby

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

They dont get perks about accommodation. Trinity doesnt have enough accommodation to be able to offer that many spaces for sports scholars especially with issues around accomodation in the city for students

Trinity college offer around 70 sports scholarships of varying degrees, every one of these recipients get priority accommodation if they wish, for at least first year unsure after that, along with various degree of fee refunds and other perks. Every year 30 of these recipients are male rugby players. These scholarships are sponsored by BOI.

DUFC then offer additional "scholarships" to players in other colleges that don't play club rugby which is basically just play for free, get all the gym and physio perks and that's it

Stainalert

Squidgy Black wrote: »

If they're based outside of Dublin they get priority on the list. You're talking maybe 10 out of the 30 awarded.

There's no discount or anything. This comes from a friend who was promised it upon accepting his CAO offer.

University accomodation is priced at a significant discount to market rates in Dublin so scholarship recipients are effectively receiving financial assistance if they get prioritised.

D14Rugby

Stainalert wrote: »

University accomodation is priced at a significant discount to market rates in Dublin so scholarship recipients are effectively receiving financial assistance if they get prioritised.

Well yes that's the point of a scholarship

Stainalert

D14Rugby wrote: »

Well yes that's the point of a scholarship

My point being that the financial value of the scholarship is being undervalued if prioritised accommodation is not taken into account.

D14Rugby

Stainalert wrote: »

My point being that the financial value of the scholarship is being undervalued if prioritised accommodation is not taken into account.

They never give an exact value as it changes depending on what level scholarship you get

ArmchairQB

So we are in no doubt that the universities are indeed in breach of Rule 6 in so far as that they receive a material benefit from the club or someone closely alligned to the club such as the University or Sponsor or member. Seems pretty clear that there is one rule for Uni#s and one for clubs and Uni's can breach rule 6 as they wish?

irishbucsfan

Has there ever been a comment from anyone on that sort of thing?

I mean if there was an exemption for them I wouldn't really have a problem with it at all.

ArmchairQB

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Has there ever been a comment from anyone on that sort of thing?

I mean if there was an exemption for them I wouldn't really have a problem with it at all.

No comment as they insist when challenged that they only offer educational scholarships and they would never breach rule 6 which IRFU & Leinster accept but which we all know that is is a comple & utter lie. AS current and previous holders of such scholarships tell us all the time no secret but cowardly of Union and Leinster not to pull them up on it. They have no appetite to take them on and are basically afraid to.

D14Rugby

6.6.2.2 A University may provide a Player with a bona fide academic bursary
or scholarship as a student at that University. However, a University
Club must supply to the Union full details of all students receiving
such a bursary or scholarship before 1st November in each year;

ArmchairQB wrote: »

No comment as they insist when challenged that they only offer educational scholarships and they would never breach rule 6 which IRFU & Leinster accept but which we all know that is is a comple & utter lie. AS current and previous holders of such scholarships tell us all the time no secret but cowardly of Union and Leinster not to pull them up on it. They have no appetite to take them on and are basically afraid to.

Not at all what happens

Stainalert

D14Rugby wrote: »

6.6.2.2 A University may provide a Player with a bona fide academic bursary
or scholarship as a student at that University. However, a University
Club must supply to the Union full details of all students receiving
such a bursary or scholarship before 1st November in each year;

The key here is the University is allowed provide the scholarship not the university club and that is clearly not the case. There is also no way these scholarships can be considered "academic" as the only reason for the scholarships being awarded is their rugby prowess

irishbucsfan

Stainalert wrote: »

The key here is the University is allowed provide the scholarship not the university club and that is clearly not the case. There is also no way these scholarships can be considered "academic" as the only reason for the scholarships being awarded is their rugby prowess

An academic scholarship can be granted entirely due to sporting achievements/ability.

Or am I misunderstanding and are all these guys not students of their university?

ArmchairQB

Stainalert wrote: »

The key here is the University is allowed provide the scholarship not the university club and that is clearly not the case. There is also no way these scholarships can be considered "academic" as the only reason for the scholarships being awarded is their rugby prowess

Yeah exactly the point. Wonder how many non academic scholarships the Uni's inform the Branch or IRFU of. None I would say as it would be a breach of Rule 6

Stainalert

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Stainalert wrote: »

The key here is the University is allowed provide the scholarship not the university club and that is clearly not the case. There is also no way these scholarships can be considered "academic" as the only reason for the scholarships being awarded is their rugby prowess

An academic scholarship can be granted entirely due to sporting achievements/ability.

Or am I misunderstanding and are all these guys not students of their university?

No it can't - A scholarship granted based on sporting achievements/ability is a sports scholarship not an academic scholarship.

irishbucsfan

Stainalert wrote: »

No it can't - A scholarship granted based on sporting achievements/ability is a sports scholarship not an academic scholarship.

Do the IRFU define it that way explicitly somewhere elsewhere in their rules?

D14Rugby

Stainalert wrote: »

The key here is the University is allowed provide the scholarship not the university club and that is clearly not the case. There is also no way these scholarships can be considered "academic" as the only reason for the scholarships being awarded is their rugby prowess

And that's what happens at trinity/DUFC. The University offer and award the scholarships that come with the condition of playing for the club. The club supply this list to the IRFU and its all cleared, what are you not getting here

Squidgy Black

Is it not seen as an academic scholarship regardless because it's a bursary towards their fees as opposed to a cash bursary?

ArmchairQB

D14Rugby wrote: »

And that's what happens at trinity/DUFC. The University offer and award the scholarships that come with the condition of playing for the club. The club supply this list to the IRFU and its all cleared, what are you not getting here

They are not complying with rule 6. There should be no conditions of play especially if linked to acourse that is what is defined as a material benefit in Rule 6. You will get a scholarship / subsidised Masters at 50% of normal value on condition you play for the University. If you don't you won't get it! That is a condition of play and if you look at registration / transfer forms you must sign that you are playing and not being provided with a material benefit. Point is it is not open to clubs to this and should not be open to university clubs to do this exclusively. It is illegal for all and no exceptions for universities outside of academic scholarships. No 3rd party is allowed provide a benefit either.

D14Rugby

ArmchairQB wrote: »

They are not complying with rule 6. There should be no conditions of play especially if linked to acourse that is what is defined as a material benefit in Rule 6. You will get a scholarship / subsidised Masters at 50% of normal value on condition you play for the University. If you don't you won't get it! That is a condition of play and if you look at registration / transfer forms you must sign that you are playing and not being provided with a material benefit. Point is it is not open to clubs to this and should not be open to university clubs to do this exclusively. It is illegal for all and no exceptions for universities outside of academic scholarships. No 3rd party is allowed provide a benefit either.

I actually quoted the section that explicit states they can offer scholarships.

ArmchairQB

D14Rugby wrote: »

I actually quoted the section that explicit states they can offer scholarships.

Yes you did re Academic but not all Scholarships are academic that is the whole point you seem to be missing. How is €1,500 a year to 30 rugby players an academic scholarship in trinity or to over 60 rugby players in UCD?