All-New United Ireland Thread

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

What is very interesting over the last few years has been the emergence of a significant cultural divide between North and South. It was evident for many years in superficial issues like Sunday retail hours, church attendance etc. However, the recent referenda have opened a chasm between North and South in cultural terms with the South becoming an open tolerant and welcoming society with abortion and same-sex marriage.

We are no longer the same type of Irish.

Given that the polls show that most people in the north favour change (just as they did here) I think it is a given that you made that theory up and ignored the quite evident reason why there is a chasm in the north.

McGiver

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Economies of scale 101

Show me some evidence that it would be economically beneficial.

If it's so damn simple show me the numbers.

There you go.
http://prcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Modeling-Irish-Unification-Report.pdf

blanch152

McGiver wrote: »

There you go.
http://prcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Modeling-Irish-Unification-Report.pdf

Ah yes, the report commissioned by the Knights of the Red Branch, who have a long history:

https://sf.curbed.com/2013/8/5/10212314/irish-brotherhood-at-the-knights-of-the-red-branch-hall

This is how the modern-day version describe themselves in the report:


"A voluntary California Non Profit Social Welfare organization that is based in the San Francisco
Bay area. It promotes friendship and peaceful resolutions to conflict. We would hope that this
particular project will come to the attention of those that are involved politically and /or
economically in Ireland. Conflict resolution leads to a more stable form of government which,
in turn, leads to a more productive workforce and economy which leads to better returns on
investments"

Suffice to say that the particular report quoted has been debunked on several occasions on here. Slugger O'Toole did a job on it as well:


https://sluggerotoole.com/2015/11/21/when-is-an-independent-study-on-irish-unification-not-independent/


Basically, they are a front for Sinn Fein. So much for the independence of the report.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Ah yes, the report commissioned by the Knights of the Red Branch, who have a long history:

https://sf.curbed.com/2013/8/5/10212314/irish-brotherhood-at-the-knights-of-the-red-branch-hall

This is how the modern-day version describe themselves in the report:


"A voluntary California Non Profit Social Welfare organization that is based in the San Francisco
Bay area. It promotes friendship and peaceful resolutions to conflict. We would hope that this
particular project will come to the attention of those that are involved politically and /or
economically in Ireland. Conflict resolution leads to a more stable form of government which,
in turn, leads to a more productive workforce and economy which leads to better returns on
investments"

Suffice to say that the particular report quoted has been debunked on several occasions on here. Slugger O'Toole did a job on it as well:


https://sluggerotoole.com/2015/11/21/when-is-an-independent-study-on-irish-unification-not-independent/


Basically, they are a front for Sinn Fein. So much for the independence of the report.

But what about the grand chasm of changing cultural differences betwixt the people who consider themselves Irish and those who wish to be anything but? Bound to be, what with the Unionists wanting to remain in the past, not to mention happy to agree with comparisons between pro choice and Nazi death camps. A former health minister mind. I don't think these anti-civil rights anti-science folk are going to change culturally or evolve to be more specific despite all attempts at compromise and peaceful means. This isn't about different strokes for different folks, this is an organisation out to look after it's own interests despite the world, for the most part, moving on.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

But what about the grand chasm of changing cultural differences betwixt the people who consider themselves Irish and those who wish to be anything but? Bound to be, what with the Unionists wanting to remain in the past, not to mention happy to agree with comparisons between pro choice and Nazi death camps. A former health minister mind. I don't think these anti-civil rights anti-science folk are going to change culturally or evolve to be more specific despite all attempts at compromise and peaceful means. This isn't about different strokes for different folks, this is an organisation out to look after it's own interests despite the world, for the most part, moving on.

Are you replying to the right post?

None of that has anything to do with a organisation fronting for Sinn Fein producing a fatally flawed "independent" report on the benefits of unification.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Are you replying to the right post?

None of that has anything to do with a organisation fronting for Sinn Fein producing a fatally flawed "independent" report on the benefits of unification.

'But what about the grand chasm of changing cultural differences...'
You missed the responses to your previous post. Just trying to have a discussion before running off to another one. No worries.

Risteard81

The so-called "EU" has no place in Ireland. It needs to be expelled from all 32-Counties. Ireland must be governed by the Irish.

oscarBravo

Risteard81 wrote: »

The so-called "EU" has no place in Ireland. It needs to be expelled from all 32-Counties. Ireland must be governed by the Irish.

What's with the "so-called" and the danger quotes? You think it's some other organisation pretending to be the EU?

As for expelling it from Ireland, you don't quite seem to understand the concept of membership. You don't expel a tennis club from a tennis player, for example.

If you're going to express strongly-held views on the EU, it might help to have the faintest idea what you're talking about first.

Risteard81

oscarBravo wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

The so-called "EU" has no place in Ireland. It needs to be expelled from all 32-Counties. Ireland must be governed by the Irish.

What's with the "so-called" and the danger quotes? You think it's some other organisation pretending to be the EU?

As for expelling it from Ireland, you don't quite seem to understand the concept of membership. You don't expel a tennis club from a tennis player, for example.

If you're going to express strongly-held views on the EU, it might help to have the faintest idea what you're talking about first.

The illegal so-called "EU" is a crime against Ireland and the world.

oscarBravo

Risteard81 wrote: »

The illegal so-called "EU" is a crime against Ireland and the world.

You're not doing a stellar job of demonstrating a grasp of the topic.

You say the EU is illegal. That means that its existence contravenes one or more laws. You haven't said what laws, or how they're being contravened.

You've repeated the phrase "so-called", doubling down on the idea that it's somehow not, in fact, the EU, and is some other organisation masquerading as the EU.

You've put "EU" in danger quotes again, without bothering to explain why.

You've described the EU as "a crime", which is basically just a tautology having already called it "illegal".

Basically, you're mouthing slogans. You're behaving like the discussion forum equivalent of someone standing on a street corner with a sandwich board yelling "the end is nigh" - I can only assume you're doing it to make yourself feel better, because you're not exactly making a convincing case for your beliefs.

So, do you want to explain why you're so upset about the EU, or are you just going to keep barking catchphrases at us?

McGiver

oscarBravo wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

The illegal so-called "EU" is a crime against Ireland and the world.

You're not doing a stellar job of demonstrating a grasp of the topic.

You say the EU is illegal. That means that its existence contravenes one or more laws. You haven't said what laws, or how they're being contravened.

You've repeated the phrase "so-called", doubling down on the idea that it's somehow not, in fact, the EU, and is some other organisation masquerading as the EU.

You've put "EU" in danger quotes again, without bothering to explain why.

You've described the EU as "a crime", which is basically just a tautology having already called it "illegal".

Basically, you're mouthing slogans. You're behaving like the discussion forum equivalent of someone standing on a street corner with a sandwich board yelling "the end is nigh" - I can only assume you're doing it to make yourself feel better, because you're not exactly making a convincing case for your beliefs.

So, do you want to explain why you're so upset about the EU, or are you just going to keep barking catchphrases at us?

Wasn't it the EU that actually enabled the GFA? Apart from negotiating it, most importantly by integrating ROI and NI economically where both were part of the CU and SM as well as politically where both were part of the EU.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

'But what about the grand chasm of changing cultural differences...'
You missed the responses to your previous post. Just trying to have a discussion before running off to another one. No worries.

Where did I say "grand chasm of changing cultural differences"?

blanch152 wrote: »

What is very interesting over the last few years has been the emergence of a significant cultural divide between North and South. It was evident for many years in superficial issues like Sunday retail hours, church attendance etc. However, the recent referenda have opened a chasm between North and South in cultural terms with the South becoming an open tolerant and welcoming society with abortion and same-sex marriage.

We are no longer the same type of Irish.

If we are ever to have a unified State on this island, we need more cultural convergence to enable it. To date, all we have seen is cultural divergence. Take something as simple as the Irish language. The number of speakers in the South continues to decline as the numbers in the North rise. This is despite huge Government funding and compulsory education in the South as opposed to zero Government funding and clear opposition in the North. Cultural differences are the only explanation.

Ditto religious attendance, retail hours, Sunday working, same-sex marriage, adoption, immigration, etc. There is a world of difference opening up, and it is not confined to one community in the North. There are many nationalists in the North who are very happy with the religious observance of the Sabbath, who would just be weird in the South.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Where did I say "grand chasm of changing cultural differences"?



If we are ever to have a unified State on this island, we need more cultural convergence to enable it. To date, all we have seen is cultural divergence. Take something as simple as the Irish language. The number of speakers in the South continues to decline as the numbers in the North rise. This is despite huge Government funding and compulsory education in the South as opposed to zero Government funding and clear opposition in the North. Cultural differences are the only explanation.

Ditto religious attendance, retail hours, Sunday working, same-sex marriage, adoption, immigration, etc. There is a world of difference opening up, and it is not confined to one community in the North. There are many nationalists in the North who are very happy with the religious observance of the Sabbath, who would just be weird in the South.

The usual vague makey up repudiation of the concept of a UI.

There are as many in the south who are unhappy with the lack of Sunday observance.

Most of what you mention again comes from Unionist conservative blocking of any change.

Thomas_IV

Risteard81 wrote: »

The so-called "EU" has no place in Ireland. It needs to be expelled from all 32-Counties. Ireland must be governed by the Irish.

Risteard81 wrote: »

The illegal so-called "EU" is a crime against Ireland and the world.

That all sounds like trolling to me. It is pure and poor nonsense.

Mtx

What is the consensus in the south on whether they want reunification? Any polls I seen were northern Ireland survey's.

Edward M

blanch152 wrote: »

Where did I say "grand chasm of changing cultural differences"?



If we are ever to have a unified State on this island, we need more cultural convergence to enable it. To date, all we have seen is cultural divergence. Take something as simple as the Irish language. The number of speakers in the South continues to decline as the numbers in the North rise. This is despite huge Government funding and compulsory education in the South as opposed to zero Government funding and clear opposition in the North. Cultural differences are the only explanation.

Ditto religious attendance, retail hours, Sunday working, same-sex marriage, adoption, immigration, etc. There is a world of difference opening up, and it is not confined to one community in the North. There are many nationalists in the North who are very happy with the religious observance of the Sabbath, who would just be weird in the South.

There isn't that much difference culturally really, most of what you state is religious differences.
Maybe if the DUP were more open to allowing what a majority of their citizens would favour instead of their bullheaded stances they, and perhaps yourself too, might realise that the actual citizens arent as poles apart as the religious and political organisations would have us believe!

McMurphy

Did anyone else hear Sammy Wilson discussing abortion in the commons on (I think) Mon or Tues?

This is what the UK citizens are now witnessing the madness that goes on within their heads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk_AoMdETRU

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Where did I say "grand chasm of changing cultural differences"?



If we are ever to have a unified State on this island, we need more cultural convergence to enable it. To date, all we have seen is cultural divergence. Take something as simple as the Irish language. The number of speakers in the South continues to decline as the numbers in the North rise. This is despite huge Government funding and compulsory education in the South as opposed to zero Government funding and clear opposition in the North. Cultural differences are the only explanation.

Ditto religious attendance, retail hours, Sunday working, same-sex marriage, adoption, immigration, etc. There is a world of difference opening up, and it is not confined to one community in the North. There are many nationalists in the North who are very happy with the religious observance of the Sabbath, who would just be weird in the South.

The Irish language is a great case in point, politically the DUP don't want to give. That's not cultural disinterest, that's actively blocking and working against it due to intentional ignorance and bigotry. Markedly different to culture.
You're confusing people who want nothing to do with anything 'Irish', the Unionists/DUP and their ethos remaining the same, with culture.

If anything it's an actual cultural shift that makes their strangle hold more tenuous as the rest of the people in the country, north included, progresses, culturally.
The DUP are an organisation, with pretty much the same agenda and ethos as they've always had. The only cultural shift up the North is to show them up as dated and losing ground, culturally.
You cite policy enacted and/or maintained by a political party who's raison d'etre is keeping the Irish separate and under foot. It's the DUP that will be dragged kicking and screaming into a civil, peaceful and modern world.
I don't think going backwards to the catholic Ireland and shame of 1950's Ireland would be a runner. If anything the people in their jurisdiction will see the progress, (albeit slow) being made in the rest of Ireland.
The partition was an ill conceived stop gap measure that has had it's time. It's an embarrassment to the Irish state and the British parliament that it's gone on this long, IMO. The DUP are lucky May needs them to lean on.

James Brown

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Did anyone else hear Sammy Wilson discussing abortion in the commons on (I think) Mon or Tues?

This is what the UK citizens are now witnessing the madness that goes on within their heads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk_AoMdETRU

I mentioned it the other day. Jim Wells happy to have pro-choice people/abortion compared to Nazi death camps. The average Brit has little to no knowledge of the north of Ireland or the DUP. High profile issues like this are an embarrassment for May and rightly so.

BonnieSituation

Mtx wrote: »

What is the consensus in the south on whether they want reunification? Any polls I seen were northern Ireland survey's.

There's a large consensus in the south and always has been for reunification.

You can take it as read that a large majority want it. Especially seeing as all major political parties are pro-unification, even the Blueshirts.

Either way though the mechanisms that allow it can't come into play until the north vote for it.

Thomas_IV

Matt Barrett wrote: »

...

The DUP are lucky May needs them to lean on.

The DUP is holding May in ransom and that is what they love most, to have their hands on the lever (indirectly) and every time any suggestion comes up that doesn't fit the bigot DUP, they threaten May to drop their back up. Easy play with her as she is himself gutless and hasn't a grip on her own cabinet either.

NI would certainly benefit from a dual status of remaining in the SM and the CU as well as this wouldn't cease the link to GB, but for the sake of being bigot stubborn, Foster insists on NI leaving together with GB. Totally insane and irrational to the core. In short, Mays difficulties are Fosters opportunities and this Dinosaur Unionist Party knows when to 'squeeze'.

There is no question for me that the DUP is after a hard Brexit and a hard border on the Island of Ireland, just like in the 'old days'. The DUP would surely love to get rid of the GFA, placing NI under direct rule from Westminster again, the sooner that would happen the happier they were. But they seem to ignore the consequences of such a step back totally. Those who still vote for the DUP and their backwards policy have left any sanity behind.

This ongoing charade is just another example for how greed to power currupts, on both sides, the Tories and the DUP. Both don't give a fiddlers about the people and the future of the country as they gamble with it and head towards the ultimate economical catastrophe. But still they are both in denial that it will come to that.

Thomas_IV

BonnieSituation wrote: »

There's a large consensus in the south and always has been for reunification.

You can take it as read that a large majority want it. Especially seeing as all major political parties are pro-unification, even the Blueshirts.

Either way though the mechanisms that allow it can't come into play until the north vote for it.

From what I have observed is, that many would like to have a UI but would be happy to have it without the troublesome Unionists and Loyalists of the likes of the DUP and the OO. But the Trouble is, that one has to take them in anyway and whatever one offers them, they still refuse everything, for the sake of being / remaining 'British' (in their special meaning of the word).

Thomas_IV

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I mentioned it the other day. Jim Wells happy to have pro-choice people/abortion compared to Nazi death camps. The average Brit has little to no knowledge of the north of Ireland or the DUP. High profile issues like this are an embarrassment for May and rightly so.

I think that they have had enough time to watch them performing and judge them by their silly responses towards govt. proposals since the DUP is able to hold the govt in ransom because of the backing the PM needs from them, after she has lost the majority which Cameron left her.

BonnieSituation

Thomas_IV wrote: »

From what I have observed is, that many would like to have a UI but would be happy to have it without the troublesome Unionists and Loyalists of the likes of the DUP and the OO. But the Trouble is, that one has to take them in anyway and whatever one offers them, they still refuse everything, for the sake of being / remaining 'British' (in their special meaning of the word).

Well that's loyalism's problem.

You can only go so far with a toddler.

By the time we get to a UI being likely stuff like this will be ironed out.

It's coming sooner because of the hames that is Brexit.

Thomas_IV

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Well that's loyalism's problem.

You can only go so far with a toddler.

By the time we get to a UI being likely stuff like this will be ironed out.

It's coming sooner because of the hames that is Brexit.

I am convinced that by the attitude of this present UK govt that they'll head for a crash out of the EU with a hard Brexit which will certainly trigger Scotland's IndyRef2 in which (so I presume) the majority of the Scottish electorate will vote in favour of independence. Even if that happens just to 'abandon ship' and save their own economy from being dragged down into Brexit decline. This is to lead to the ultimate break up of the UK and the DUP can stick their Britishness to wherever they like because the English won't continue to send them money afterwards.

James Brown

There is absolutely no weight to any genuine Unionist fears. They can wave as many Union Jacks as they like, piss in hall doorways on the 12th, deny climate change and consider themselves British as much as they like, within Irish jurisdiction. They won't even be forced to have abortions or marry their same sex if they don't wish to.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The Irish language is a great case in point, politically the DUP don't want to give. That's not cultural disinterest, that's actively blocking and working against it due to intentional ignorance and bigotry. Markedly different to culture.
You're confusing people who want nothing to do with anything 'Irish', the Unionists/DUP and their ethos remaining the same, with culture.

If anything it's an actual cultural shift that makes their strangle hold more tenuous as the rest of the people in the country, north included, progresses, culturally.
The DUP are an organisation, with pretty much the same agenda and ethos as they've always had. The only cultural shift up the North is to show them up as dated and losing ground, culturally.
You cite policy enacted and/or maintained by a political party who's raison d'etre is keeping the Irish separate and under foot. It's the DUP that will be dragged kicking and screaming into a civil, peaceful and modern world.
I don't think going backwards to the catholic Ireland and shame of 1950's Ireland would be a runner. If anything the people in their jurisdiction will see the progress, (albeit slow) being made in the rest of Ireland.
The partition was an ill conceived stop gap measure that has had it's time. It's an embarrassment to the Irish state and the British parliament that it's gone on this long, IMO. The DUP are lucky May needs them to lean on.

I am not talking about politicial parties and their positions, I am talking the realities of life on the ground. Partition is nearly 100 years old and in that time the two parts of this island have culturally diverged rather than converged. Cultural life in the North (in both of their communities) is rooted in the past. Quite frankly, the North would now act as a big drag on the progressive South.

Zubeneschamali

blanch152 wrote: »

Quite frankly, the North would now act as a big drag on the progressive South.

I would admit that I would not be too happy to see the DUP in Leinster House and Sinn Fein boosted by their NI voters to be the countries largest party.

SF voters might be released by unification, a bit like UKIP voters after the Brexit referendum, but the DUP would only strengthen and become even more obstreperous in opposition.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

I am not talking about politicial parties and their positions, I am talking the realities of life on the ground. Partition is nearly 100 years old and in that time the two parts of this island have culturally diverged rather than converged. Cultural life in the North (in both of their communities) is rooted in the past. Quite frankly, the North would now act as a big drag on the progressive South.

Well in that case you are wrong, imo. It won't be long now before there's a push for pro choice legislation. The DUP are embarrassing themselves this week on that very topic. They've a thriving gay community and they can deny climate change, but I'm quite sure most people take science over rhetoric.
I would counter, as we move further away from the criminal past of the catholic church, the more appealing Ireland is to the average non-DUP member.

James Brown

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I would admit that I would not be too happy to see the DUP in Leinster House and Sinn Fein boosted by their NI voters to be the countries largest party.

SF voters might be released by unification, a bit like UKIP voters after the Brexit referendum, but the DUP would only strengthen and become even more obstreperous in opposition.

I can see them partnering with Fine Gael, similar personalities. Be a sad day for FF and the civil war monopoly.