All-New United Ireland Thread

Charles Babbage

blanch152 wrote: »

I was told the very same thing 30 years ago. I'm still waiting.

Have you a poll from 30 years ago showing this trend?

A lot of those poll projections fail to comprehend that political views change as people age - they generally become more conservative.

Conservative, of course. If you are not socialist when you are 20 you have no heart, if you are still a socialist at 40 then you have no brain.

They don't suddenly start thinking they are British though.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Indeed. From ship-building linen-exporting industrialists to 'Professor' Peter Robinson and 'Lord' Willie McCrea in less than a century.

Peter Robinson is still twice Willie McCrea! I suspect he would not have bumbled quite as readily into the Brexit mess.

DUP strategists must be the absolute dumbest ever. I heard a unionist man on BBC Radio 'Ulster' speaking to the DUP's more recent own-goals saying: 'have these people ever played chess'?

Have they ever even played snap?

keane2097

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Have they ever even played snap?

They're afraid of alligators don't forget.

Nitrogan

It's probably not going to happen while there a lot of Unionists.

Unionism has evolved a bit (no joke intended) from what it was at the time of the GFA so it's possible that in time Unionists might become Northern Irish Nationalists (not Irish Nationalists) and in assessing their prospects as a state on their own understand that a union with the body they share a land border with is actually their best option for prosperity in the ever after. It'll be a long time coming but the best peaceful scenario I can see.

ed. An independent NI might come first, subsidised by the EU initially.

maccored

VinLieger wrote: »

Does anybody really think that is possible to do without mass disruption to peoples way of life north and south?

The country would be run as is while the new setup is prepared in the background.For a start it could take decades, and secondly there would have to be a complex managed switchover. Not thinking outside the box and taking the lazy route, rarely works

The main issue with the public service and a united ireland is how many are employed by the state in the north is objectively unsustainable after reunification

Just backs up my point tbh

An Ciarraioch

Intriguing tweet by the unionist Belfast Newsletter columnist, Alex Kane - apparently, a new united Ireland poll will be released tomorrow, and he suggests it's even tighter than October's Lucid Talk survey:

https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexKane221b/status/998191680326176769

McMurphy

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Intriguing tweet by the unionist Belfast Newsletter columnist, Alex Kane - apparently, a new united Ireland poll will be released tomorrow, and he suggests it's even tighter than October's Lucid Talk survey:

https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexKane221b/status/998191680326176769

Interrsting comments that follow on from the initial tweet.

It would be ironic indeed if the DUP and their Brexit kamikaze ultimately led to their (and that of the union) own demise.

Avatar MIA

Hopefully the Sec of State has enough to call for a border poll. It might fail, but after 7 years of NI brexit isolation and mature discussions it could very much be on the cards.

Kermit.de.frog

If a referendum is called on a United Ireland would it be a once off or does it have to be repeated every few years after the first referendum?

Avatar MIA

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If a referendum is called on a United Ireland would it be a once off or does it have to be repeated every few years after the first referendum?

It doesn't have to be repeated, but there has to be at least 7 years before the next one. Where they got the 7 from I've no idea.

Charles Babbage

murphaph wrote: »

Do we really want to live in the same country as Ian Paisley Jr., Nigel Dodds and William McCrea?

McCrea is going to be Lord shortly, Dodds will be behind him and do a Trimble and move to England. Ian Paisley Jr. is a bit of an eejit, but he could make a life in a new Ireland.

But ultimately you have to live with these people so that they do not have control over other ordinary decent Irish people.

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

If a referendum is called on a United Ireland would it be a once off or does it have to be repeated every few years after the first referendum?

No. The only rule is that you cannot have one for 7 years. But with the demographics 7 years would be nationalists +3 or 4% and unionists down 4%, so if it were at all close then you'd have to have another one.

Kermit.de.frog

Going by this new poll tomorrow it appears as far away as ever from a border poll?

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/new-poll-finds-just-21-support-for-a-united-ireland-despite-fears-about-post-brexit-irish-border/

blanch152

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Going by this new poll tomorrow it appears as far away as ever from a border poll?

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/new-poll-finds-just-21-support-for-a-united-ireland-despite-fears-about-post-brexit-irish-border/

One of the more interesting parts of that article is the following:

"If Irish unity led to Catholic voters being £3,500 a year worse off, just 22% of Catholics would vote for unity, yet if it led to them being £3,500 better off that figure would more than double to over 54%."


Amazing that even if they were going to be better off, only 54% of Catholics would vote for a united Ireland. However, I have said all along that if a border poll is ever to be successful, both sides of the border would have to be financially better off. I just can't see that happening.

Hopefully, this poll puts an end to the current talk about unity, which is only distracting from the real Brexit issues.

Charles Babbage

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Going by this new poll tomorrow it appears as far away as ever from a border poll?

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/new-poll-finds-just-21-support-for-a-united-ireland-despite-fears-about-post-brexit-irish-border/

We are as far away in the context of present proposals by the EU in the December agreement, which preserves economic integation on the island notwithstanding Brexit.

This is a vindication of the Irish government strategy, while they are frequently accused by the Brexit loonies of wanting to "break up the UK", their ambition is rather the opposite in trying to stabilise the situation.

The wishes of people in NI is very clear, in not wanting cross border trade and travel disrupted. If this is respected, then the border poll can await further discussion, which is the only proper way to do things. A border poll triggered because the British had lost the plot would not be desireable.

FrancieBrady

Charles Babbage wrote: »

We are as far away in the context of present proposals by the EU in the December agreement, which preserves economic integation on the island notwithstanding Brexit.

This is a vindication of the Irish government strategy, while they are frequently accused by the Brexit loonies of wanting to "break up the UK", their ambition is rather the opposite in trying to stabilise the situation.

The wishes of people in NI is very clear, in not wanting cross border trade and travel disrupted. If this is respected, then the border poll can await further discussion, which is the only proper way to do things. A border poll triggered because the British had lost the plot would not be desireable.

I don't think the Irish government or the EU can stabilise the situation for the 'Union' any longer.

I firmly believe we are watching the slow inexorable break-up of that 'Union' and that will make a UI a reaction (rather than a choice) to what is happening elsewhere.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/scottish-independence-report-will-not-be-sugar-coated-nicola-sturgeon-says-844152.html

The UK is basically finished, having travelled as far as it can. Brexit is just a symptom of the decay, decline and disagreement.

James Brown

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But why ?

What's the value to them or to us ?

Some romantic BS ?

If they want to live in the 26 juristiction they can.

I find Sligo of no personal value.
We could all dissolve our respective countries and become one amalgamation of a few hundred thousand fiefdoms under the flag of the EU or some other regulatory body, but I think having an individual identity, both cultural and ethnic makes people unique. Then there's the conversation on who should or shouldn't be included. It's apparent to me that a portion of the Irish province of Ulster, on the island of Ireland, should.

Thomas_IV

blanch152 wrote: »

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

1. Costs would be the current UK government spend on NI plus a lot lot more. Not sure about EU funding, did they help fund German reunification ?

2. probably, if you want to extend a olive branch to those from NI that are against to move, to not do so would be disengenious.

3. Parties should prepare policy papers to set out how a transition to a  United Ireland would be managed and how much it would cost.

4. Yes people born in NI before unification should be entitled to dual citizenship, and I'd even extend that to the grandchildren of people born in NI.

5. In the short to medium term some sort of NI assembly should exist, if just to manage the transition alone.

6. Yes southern politicians should campaign and be able to explain to "Alliance and liberal protestant" why a UI would be in thier interest.

In terms of your answer to question 4, why should future people born in Northern Ireland be forced to give up their aspiration to be British and have a British passport?

The prospect of a no-deal Brexit UK exiting the EU and in consequence an IndyRef2 in Scotland with a presumable majority voting in favour of Indepencende will certainly make it much harder if not to say unrealistic that future generations in NI will have to deal with aspirations of being British and apply for a British passport.

The breaking up of the UK on a no-deal Brexit will leave NI with the only option to join in a UI cos the Scots won't take them in (their Independence will give them much to solve for themselves) and neither the English nor the Welsh will have the money left to spend on subisiding NI.

Zubeneschamali

Charles Babbage wrote: »

If you are not socialist when you are 20 you have no heart, if you are still a socialist at 40 then you have no brain

and if you are not King of the Forest by the time you are 50, you have no courage.

Zubeneschamali

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Then there's the conversation on who should or shouldn't be included. It's apparent to me that a portion of the Irish province of Ulster, on the island of Ireland, should.

A portion of the province of Ulster on the island of Ireland already is included.

mariaalice

I ponder are we getting beyond borders and we're seeing the tentative emergence of whole island liberal versus conservative divide if Arlen Foster interview at the weekend is anything to go by.

blanch152

Thomas_IV wrote: »

The prospect of a no-deal Brexit UK exiting the EU and in consequence an IndyRef2 in Scotland with a presumable majority voting in favour of Indepencende will certainly make it much harder if not to say unrealistic that future generations in NI will have to deal with aspirations of being British and apply for a British passport.

The breaking up of the UK on a no-deal Brexit will leave NI with the only option to join in a UI cos the Scots won't take them in (their Independence will give them much to solve for themselves) and neither the English nor the Welsh will have the money left to spend on subisiding NI.

Given that the English and the Welsh will no longer be subsidising Scotland, why won't they have the money to continue subsidising the North?

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I find Sligo of no personal value.
We could all dissolve our respective countries and become one amalgamation of a few hundred thousand fiefdoms under the flag of the EU or some other regulatory body, but I think having an individual identity, both cultural and ethnic makes people unique. Then there's the conversation on who should or shouldn't be included. It's apparent to me that a portion of the Irish province of Ulster, on the island of Ireland, should.

What is very interesting over the last few years has been the emergence of a significant cultural divide between North and South. It was evident for many years in superficial issues like Sunday retail hours, church attendance etc. However, the recent referenda have opened a chasm between North and South in cultural terms with the South becoming an open tolerant and welcoming society with abortion and same-sex marriage.

We are no longer the same type of Irish.

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

What is very interesting over the last few years has been the emergence of a significant cultural divide between North and South. It was evident for many years in superficial issues like Sunday retail hours, church attendance etc. However, the recent referenda have opened a chasm between North and South in cultural terms with the South becoming an open tolerant and welcoming society with abortion and same-sex marriage.

We are no longer the same type of Irish.

SSM is stopped by the mechanism of a petition of concern from the DUP.

Abortion has come to the fore again and again and again is stopped by the DUP.

You can't really do much if the largest party uses mechanisms constantly to deny people their rights as enshrined in Britain and the south, that weren't really intended for such things.

I think you'll find that we're more the same time of Irish than you like to admit and always have been.

keane2097

Sure over a third of our type of Irish voted against both those changes, what do we do with them? Swapsies?

Thomas_IV

blanch152 wrote: »

Given that the English and the Welsh will no longer be subsidising Scotland, why won't they have the money to continue subsidising the North?

Not as much as NI, that is for sure. I think that it is overdue to move on and drop the fears of a UI cos once Brexit really kicks in, some - and I hope not too less - people will know who to blame for it in NI and it certainly won't be SF, but the DUP and rightly so. How a Party like the DUP can so strongheaded insist to bring all the negatives upon NI by insisting to leave the SM and the CU despite the efforts taken by both, UK govt and EU to give NI special status in these regards is really beyond me and there isn't any other party on the whole of the Island of Ireland which is so silly, stupid and backwards orientated like the DUP. All for the sake to be 'equal with Britain'.

On the twelfth of July the stupid Orangeman will take to their hatefest once again, like every year and the DUP is the core supporter of all that stupid nonsense what they call their 'culture'. They always make just a travesty of what being British means, their view of that are only shared by the likes of the UKIP, BNP, EDL and all the other far-right nutters. The Tory Party isn't that much far from them these days as well. One doesn't have to wonder why that is.

blanch152

Thomas_IV wrote: »

Not as much as NI, that is for sure. I think that it is overdue to move on and drop the fears of a UI cos once Brexit really kicks in, some - and I hope not too less - people will know who to blame for it in NI and it certainly won't be SF, but the DUP and rightly so. How a Party like the DUP can so strongheaded insist to bring all the negatives upon NI by insisting to leave the SM and the CU despite the efforts taken by both, UK govt and EU to give NI special status in these regards is really beyond me and there isn't any other party on the whole of the Island of Ireland which is so silly, stupid and backwards orientated like the DUP. All for the sake to be 'equal with Britain'.

On the twelfth of July the stupid Orangeman will take to their hatefest once again, like every year and the DUP is the core supporter of all that stupid nonsense what they call their 'culture'. They always make just a travesty of what being British means, their view of that are only shared by the likes of the UKIP, BNP, EDL and all the other far-right nutters. The Tory Party isn't that much far from them these days as well. One doesn't have to wonder why that is.

As long as one side is calling the other stupid, there isn't much hope for an agreed way forward.

Thomas_IV

blanch152 wrote: »

As long as one side is calling the other stupid, there isn't much hope for an agreed way forward.

The DUP is delivering every proof for that themselves and I am not sorry to say what they are. This no-deal Brexit the UK govt is heading to will have huge impacts on NI too and all what has been achieved since the GFA is now at stake because the DUP is the only Party in NI who insists on NI exiting the SM and CU along with GB and that just for the sake of their bigoted sense of Britishness to go along with GB, no matter what. If that is not stupid and silly than I don't know that you think is. The DUP doesn't cares about the whole people of NI and their economical well being and chances, they are just dogmatic nutters who risk all and will get nothing in the end.

Really, your arguments in trying to defend them make no sense to me anymore. There are much more important things at stake than just this Unionist and Loyalists fantasy Britishness which is in fact nothing but laughable to the many Brits across the Irish Sea. If you would follow some other UK media and read through the comments on their sites you would see what the avarage Brit thinks about them. Well, I mean those who are no followers of the UKIP and other far-right parties in GB.

The only good thing I see from this DUP backed Tory UK govt is that the whole UK can see what sort of people the DUPers really are. They have exposed themselves to the whole UK and the judgment of the many Brits on them is not in the way the DUP would like to have it. Quite the opposite is.

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

As long as one side is calling the other stupid, there isn't much hope for an agreed way forward.

And as long as the southern partitionists defend loyalist intransigence and bigotry and dismiss legitimate nationalist concerns then there isn't much hope for an agreed way forward...

Oh wait.. there were several agreements... Who's holding it up now?

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

What is very interesting over the last few years has been the emergence of a significant cultural divide between North and South. It was evident for many years in superficial issues like Sunday retail hours, church attendance etc. However, the recent referenda have opened a chasm between North and South in cultural terms with the South becoming an open tolerant and welcoming society with abortion and same-sex marriage.

We are no longer the same type of Irish.

You'll note a lot of this has to do with the Unionists/DUP and their unwillingness to move into this century. I believe some of them don't believe climate change is a thing, want creationism taught like it might be factual and they are not big fans of equal rights for same sex couples and some quarters ignorant towards the Irish language and culture. I wouldn't use these people, who's modus operandi is differentiating themselves from and looking down upon all things Irish as a natural drift in North/South Irish cultures. Any cultural divide is intentional and perpetrated by people and a party who have the ear of the British Prime Minister.
There is no cultural chasm between the north and south that isn't being manufactured by Unionist vested interests, IMO.

BonnieSituation

The "cultural chasm" has always been a "Unionist" creation and part of the differentiation agenda. Especially since WWI.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

What is very interesting over the last few years has been the emergence of a significant cultural divide between North and South. It was evident for many years in superficial issues like Sunday retail hours, church attendance etc. However, the recent referenda have opened a chasm between North and South in cultural terms with the South becoming an open tolerant and welcoming society with abortion and same-sex marriage.

We are no longer the same type of Irish.

The differences you listed.

Sunday opening hours.
Abortion
Same sex marriage.

are in place/resisted by the DUP.

In what universe did the DUP ever consider themselves to be the same type of Irish as anyone