Migration Megathread

Midlife

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Purely academic in any case; I don't think its arrogant to suggest that the kind of migration we've been looking at in the 20th and 21st Centuries is actually a fairly novel phenomenon.

Yes, relating modern era migration to a developed country to anything other than modern era migration to a developed country is clownishness of the highest order.

I mea what the hell are we discussing the fate of native americans for? A practically stone aged people being colonised by a tenchnolgically superior ruthless group who were activly looking for lands to colonise.

It has nothing to do wiith this thread.

Midlife

Ultros wrote: »

Do you refute the fact that Angela Merkel, the leader of Germany, has said on the record that multiculturalism has "Utterly failed" in Germany. That it's a "life lie". That it creates "parallel societies."


To add to my previous post, not only will they shift, they'll ignore questions like this. Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing.

So you think Merkel is always correct?

Ultros

Midlife wrote: »

So you think Merkel is always correct?

The liberal debate playbook 101. Reality is staring you in the face so you have to question the persons intent, in this case, the German Chancellor.

Pretty much every country in Europe affected by this outside of Sweden ( because they're cowards hiding crime statistics ) has publicly recognized that Muslim immigration has brought problems.

See my post here :

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109692100

If you want more examples feel free to ask.

Brian?

markodaly wrote: »

Parody?

The point is lost on you.

Dare I say it that man who killed all those people yesterday, would have much in common with 19th-century Maori tribal warrior culture.

You tried to paint the Maori's as some nirvana peace loving utopian non-violent society, yet that is far from the truth, and when this was pointed out to you, you ignored it.

'Their (Europeans) culture is not compatible to Maori culture'.

Your words, not mine.

TDLR
You made some quick qip in an effort at 'parody', but not only was it factually wrong, it wasn't even funny.

You do understand parody? And irony? It wasn’t supposed to be funny. I don’t make jokes about mass murders.

And I don’t need a history lesson about Maori culture. The point I was making either flew straight over your head or you’re picking a petty argument to point score, again.


Many many many many times in this thread people have harped on about the incompatibility of Muslim culture with “western culture”, whatever that means. They maintain that violence committed by Muslims is an inevitable consequence of Muslim migration into Europe. Now we have a mass murder in New Zealand, why aren’t they harping on about cultural incompatibility of the descendants of migrants who committed this horrible crime?

ancapailldorcha

No more petty sniping please.

Odhinn

RandomName2 wrote: »

At this point (..................) were predominantly violent.

Violence underpinned colonisation. I'm somewhat aghast that you don't see that.

recedite

Brian? wrote: »

Many many many many times in this thread people have harped on about the incompatibility of Muslim culture with “western culture”, whatever that means. They maintain that violence committed by Muslims is an inevitable consequence of Muslim migration into Europe. Now we have a mass murder in New Zealand, why aren’t they harping on about cultural incompatibility of the descendants of migrants who committed this horrible crime?

The violence can come from either side.
If anything, these tragic events are further evidence of cultural incompatibility.

Brian?

recedite wrote: »

The violence can come from either side.
If anything, these tragic events are further evidence of cultural incompatibility.

The violence can come from every side, there isn’t a binary Muslims v everyone else war going on.

These tragic events have nothing to do with cultural incompatibility, they demonstrate that the problem is extremism regardless of cultural background. A radicalised Muslim terrorist is no better or worse than a radicalised white supremacist terrorist.

Midlife

Ultros wrote: »

The liberal debate playbook 101. Reality is staring you in the face so you have to question the persons intent, in this case, the German Chancellor.

Pretty much every country in Europe affected by this outside of Sweden ( because they're cowards hiding crime statistics ) has publicly recognized that Muslim immigration has brought problems.

See my post here :

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109692100

If you want more examples feel free to ask.

Two questions I'd be curious of your take on.

1: What about Ireland? Don't think we've had any issues.

2: is it the Muslim or the migration that caused the problem?

Ultros

Midlife wrote: »

Two questions I'd be curious of your take on.

1: What about Ireland? Don't think we've had any issues.

2: is it the Muslim or the migration that caused the problem?

1. Ireland has a very low relative Muslim population compared to countries like England, France etc.


2. It's a culture clash, or inevitable "parallel societies" as Merkel put it. If a bunch of Irish people went off to the middle east and starting building Catholic churches, boozing, Women walking around in short skirts etc things wouldn't end up well. Europe on a whole has been extremely tolerant overall, excluding Hungary, Poland and some other Eastern countries.

Brian?

Ultros wrote: »

1. Ireland has a very low relative Muslim population compared to countries like England, France etc.


2. It's a culture clash, or inevitable "parallel societies" as Merkel put it. If a bunch of Irish people went off to the middle east and starting building Catholic churches, boozing, Women walking around in short skirts etc things wouldn't end up well. Europe on a whole has been extremely tolerant overall, excluding Hungary, Poland and some other Eastern countries.

So what’s your solution?

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

The violence can come from either side.

"On both sides. On both sides."

If anything, these tragic events are further evidence of cultural incompatibility.

Ah, victim blaming. Never gets old.

Midlife

Ultros wrote: »

1. Ireland has a very low relative Muslim population compared to countries like England, France etc.


2. It's a culture clash, or inevitable "parallel societies" as Merkel put it. If a bunch of Irish people went off to the middle east and starting building Catholic churches, boozing, Women walking around in short skirts etc things wouldn't end up well. Europe on a whole has been extremely tolerant overall, excluding Hungary, Poland and some other Eastern countries.

But Muslims in ireland aren't a problem? So is it more to do with massive un-integrated groups than religion.

rossie1977

If a town in Mayo can successfully integrate immigrants for decades, build a mosque and have nearly 50% of its population foreign born and nobody in most conservative part of the country and western europe bats a eyelid then this whole thing isn't as difficult as we make out.

Btw go to Dubai and you will see plenty of boozing, short skirts in 4-5 star hotels most nights.

RandomName2

recedite wrote: »

The violence can come from either side.
If anything, these tragic events are further evidence of cultural incompatibility.

In fairness in New Zealand there's virtually no recorded incidence of ethnic or religious violence up until now. There was one attempted plane hijacking and that's about it. In fact, there are very few Muslims in general in New Zealand (I believe they are outnumbered by Buddhists). Unless one is going to treat Muslims as one monolithic entity, which I think is monumentally unhelpful, there's no way to draw any direct correlation between immigration in New Zealand and the attack.

The only way that one could find any connection between Islam and the terrorist attack in Christchurch is that it bears striking resemblance to similar ISIS attacks. The infamy and impact that ISIS attacks generated likely helped inspire Brenton Tarrant.

SNIP. There was a mod warning above about sniping.

Gbear

I was listening to the Ezra Klein podcast from the other day where the host was interviewing Deeyah Khan, a Norwegian documentarian of Pakistani extraction.

She's made a few docs about violent extremism in the past few years, and she spoke about them, and the similarities between the White Nationalists and Neo Nazis, and Jihadists.

Here's a trailer for her most recent film, White Right: Meeting The Enemy, where she does extensive interviewing and travelling among extremist far right groups in the US.

The other was Jihad: A Story of the Others.

After hearing the interview I intend to watch them. Perhaps those in this thread might be interested?

Dunno are they on Netflix.

It seems somewhat á-propos, given the nature of the thread and recent events.

Ultros

rossie1977 wrote: »

If a town in Mayo can successfully integrate immigrants for decades, build a mosque and have nearly 50% of its population foreign born

What town in Mayo are you talking about that has "nearly 50% of it's population foreign born"?

Ultros

rossie1977 wrote: »

Btw go to Dubai and you will see plenty of boozing, short skirts in 4-5 star hotels most nights.

Sounds like a wonderful place alright. You're only proving the point that despite Dubai is one of the most tolerant places in the middle east things like this happen regularly. Lying through your arse can only get you so far.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/8602449.stm

"A British man and woman jailed in Dubai for kissing in public have lost their appeal against their conviction.Ayman Najafi, 24, and Charlotte Adams, 25, were sentenced to a month in prison with subsequent deportation and fined about £200 for drinking alcohol.

The pair were arrested in November after a local woman accused them of breaking the country's decency laws by kissing on the mouth in a restaurant. "

recedite

Ultros wrote: »

Sounds like a wonderful place alright. You're only proving the point that despite Dubai is one of the most tolerant places in the middle east things like this happen regularly. Lying through your arse can only get you so far.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/8602449.stm

"A British man and woman jailed in Dubai for kissing in public have lost their appeal against their conviction.Ayman Najafi, 24, and Charlotte Adams, 25, were sentenced to a month in prison with subsequent deportation and fined about £200 for drinking alcohol.

The pair were arrested in November after a local woman accused them of breaking the country's decency laws by kissing on the mouth in a restaurant. "

That's what happens when the western expats stray outside their designated areas.

Sure, they are are allowed to booze and to wear their short skirts, just so long as they do it inside certain private bars and gated communities. Not in public.
Also worth noting that it is extremely unlikely they will ever get Dubai citizenship. When the work contract is up, its "bye bye infidel". Even when a child is born to western parents in Dubai, that child will not get Dubai citizenship. After 30 years living there, if you have "gone native" you will be considered a "permanent resident" and "might" be considered for citizenship.

They want guestworkers, not immigrants.
How else can they maintain their own culture when most of the people in the country are actually foreign workers?


As opposed to Ireland- put one work-shy foot on Irish soil and say the magic word "asylum". Deportation is extremely unlikely after that, even if you are a serial rapist.

Atoms for Peace

SNIP. No more one-liners please.

Irish Praetorian

Ultros wrote: »

What town in Mayo are you talking about that has "nearly 50% of it's population foreign born"?

I believe, but am open to being corrected, he is referring to Ballyhaunis, which has a bit of a tradition at this stage of integration.

James Brown

Sand wrote: »

Countries are never founded to be economies. Your James Connolly did not lose his life to ensure Ireland was the best little economy in the world for corporations to do business.

People need a greater sense of themselves than as workers and consumers. As it stands, the evidence shows that non-European immigration is an economic cost, not a benefit. There is no shortage of workers in Europe, as demonstrated by unemployment rates. Even in its own context, your argument falls flat.

Our James Connolly was an immigrant.
In fact he was deemed a terrorist foreigner ironically.

I think energies might be best spent on those who actually control and mould European society. Looking to poor immigrants trying to make a better life is aiming way off the mark. Is looking to these people going to improve our sense of self? I've more in common with a Muslim coming to Europe to make a life than I do any member of the IMF or vulture fund regardless of their origin.
An admirable sense of self would be to take individuals as you find them and not discriminate based on propaganda and spin.

recedite

Matt Barrett wrote: »

James Connolly was an immigrant.

Read this thread's title, then come back with a relevant point.

James Brown

recedite wrote: »

Read this thread's title, then come back with a relevant point.

Nice comment. Pointless but you had a go fair play.
Pointing out Connolly was an immigrant. I didn't bring him up.

Brian?

Ultros wrote: »

Sounds like a wonderful place alright. You're only proving the point that despite Dubai is one of the most tolerant places in the middle east things like this happen regularly. Lying through your arse can only get you so far.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/8602449.stm

"A British man and woman jailed in Dubai for kissing in public have lost their appeal against their conviction.Ayman Najafi, 24, and Charlotte Adams, 25, were sentenced to a month in prison with subsequent deportation and fined about £200 for drinking alcohol.

The pair were arrested in November after a local woman accused them of breaking the country's decency laws by kissing on the mouth in a restaurant. "

Yeah. Cool story. What’s your answer to these problems of integrating immigrants?

recedite

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Nice comment. Pointless but you had a go fair play.
Pointing out Connolly was an immigrant. I didn't bring him up.

Its a rubbish comparison. Just a deflection.
How do you think he picked up the name "Connolly".
Just about about everyone living in Ireland has a relative in England, Scotland, or Wales, and vice versa. And that is the way it has been for thousands of years.

On today, of all days, I shouldn't have to point out that St Patrick was Welsh.


What have these people got in common with James Connolly or St Patrick?

The couple, who are from an east African country, are accused of genital mutilation of the girl at their home in a south Dublin suburb on 16 September, 2016 and another charge under the Children’s Act for allowing a child to be assaulted, ill-treated, neglected causing unnecessary suffering or injury...


..they swore on the Koran they would abide by the bail conditions
...the man, who was unemployed and an asylum seeker, did not have an Irish passport

The court was so appalled by their behaviour that they have been told to stay in this country. Go figure.

ancapailldorcha

recedite wrote: »

Read this thread's title, then come back with a relevant point.

If you have a problem with a post, report it. Do not backseat mod.

Sand

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Our James Connolly was an immigrant.

Do you really believe that because he was born in Scotland to Irish parents in an Irish immigrant community he was not Irish? He only became Irish by naturalisation?

Just curious. People born to Irish parents are entitled to Irish citizenship regardless of where they are born.

I think energies might be best spent on those who actually control and mould European society.

What does that even mean?

Looking to poor immigrants trying to make a better life is aiming way off the mark. Is looking to these people going to improve our sense of self? I've more in common with a Muslim coming to Europe to make a life than I do any member of the IMF or vulture fund regardless of their origin.

This pre-supposes that neoliberal organisations do not welcome and encourage mass migration. The IMF does welcome it. They have called for over 5 million immigrants to Spain, despite record unemployment in that country. Your views are found in any corporate HR department. Your advocacy of mass migration is in perfect alignment with those you claim to oppose.

Maybe instead of tilting at windmills you should ask if the policy of mass migration benefits Europeans. If you are objective, you'll acknowledge it does not. Then you need only ask why that policy should be pursued.

An admirable sense of self would be to take individuals as you find them and not discriminate based on propaganda and spin.

I take you agree with Thatcher then:

And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women.

But outside of Tory extremist groups, there are societies not individuals. Peoples identity is important to them. People thrust into multiculturalism are deeply unhappy. Those who can flee it, those who cant suffer as studies have shown.

Midlife

Sand wrote: »

Do you really believe that because he was born in Scotland to Irish parents in an Irish immigrant community he was not Irish? He only became Irish by naturalisation?

Just curious. People born to Irish parents are entitled to Irish citizenship regardless of where they are born.



What does that even mean?



This pre-supposes that neoliberal organisations do not welcome and encourage mass migration. The IMF does welcome it. They have called for over 5 million immigrants to Spain, despite record unemployment in that country. Your views are found in any corporate HR department. Your advocacy of mass migration is in perfect alignment with those you claim to oppose.

Maybe instead of tilting at windmills you should ask if the policy of mass migration benefits Europeans. If you are objective, you'll acknowledge it does not. Then you need only ask why that policy should be pursued.



I take you agree with Thatcher then:

And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women.

But outside of Tory extremist groups, there are societies not individuals. Peoples identity is important to them. People thrust into multiculturalism are deeply unhappy. Those who can flee it, those who cant suffer as studies have shown.

Any chance you could produce the citation for the facts you were stating yesterday. Please don't make this another month chase. Just cite the reference or retract your statement.

Sand wrote: »

As it stands, the evidence shows that non-European immigration is an economic cost, not a benefit.

All I want you to post in response to this is where this information is from and exactly where it says this statement.

Sand

Midlife wrote: »

I note your inclusion of the word 'mass' there. I didn't say 'mass'. Not the first time you'vedone that either. By you repeatedly including the word 'mass'

I've already explained my usage of the term mass migration in this thread.

Great story. So you did say that the fact that indeginious people inentified two thirds as English was a sign that integration hadn't happened - that's whre i came in BTW.

I didn't actually assign a cause or blame. I just noted two groups of people identifying as different groups does not support the claim that they are integrated. You focused on the English identity as needing justification to continue to exist. You focused on it as being the problem that needed a long game to be played. That is on you.

Really, did I? Can you maybe quote the paragraphs where I said this?

Post 940.

I'm sure you'll find some way to answer with a question or something else I 'said' though.

Wouldn't be the first time.

I'm genuinely amused that you lack the self awareness to post this. You've been evasive and deflecting reasonable questions repeatedly. As recently as post 1011. By contrast, I've been kind enough to indulge you far more than I should despite personal abuse and your inability to set forward your own views in any coherent fashion.

Midlife wrote: »

Cite evidence please.

I have. In this very thread. At length.