Migration Megathread

johnnyskeleton

TomSweeney wrote: »

Why not ?

It was a genuine question .... wow you really are a little fascist aren't you ?

Mod note:

You've been on the site long enough to know that you shouldn't reply to mod warnings on thread. More importantly, however, personal abuse is not allowed in this forum, even towards moderators.

TomSweeney

OK I'll try again, I won't dump any links.
IT was a genuine question, Yasmine O has won young european of the year 2019,
she seems to be a relatively recent migrant.
I have no problem with her legal residency here, if she is a genuine asylum seeker
and will integrate - which she seems to want to do fair enough.
My issue is with calling her European, lets stay real her, she clearly isn't.

What is this drive to deny facts ? is it the only way they think they can get people to
accept migration ?
By just saying - Look they are European all along!!!
People would respect it more if they just be honest, here is Yasmine, Yasmine is from Syria
and her descendents will be the new europeans ... This is better.

TomSweeney

OK now I'm seeing she's from France.

OK fair enough so, sorry I was told she was a new migrant..

Brian?

creeper1 wrote: »

Mediterranean countries are beginning to push back with the election of Salvini (one of the best politicians I have witnessed in my lifetime)

If your taste in politicians is populist proto fascist, he really hits the mark. Anti gay marriage, anti immgration and pro Trump. He’s even joined forces with Steve Bannon.

This farcical situation cannot continue. Those Iranians in the dingy are not genuine asylum seekers. They would have stopped in one of the European countries en route to Calais if they were.

They are genuine asylum seekers, in that they’re seeking asylum. They may or may not be genuine refugees, but they deserve due process like everyone else. I doubt “method of transport upon arrival” will ever be added to an asylum application.

tretorn

Brian? wrote: »

If your taste in politicians is populist proto fascist, he really hits the mark. Anti gay marriage, anti immgration and pro Trump. He’s even joined forces with Steve Bannon.



They are genuine asylum seekers, in that they’re seeking asylum. They may or may not be genuine refugees, but they deserve due process like everyone else. I doubt “method of transport upon arrival” will ever be added to an asylum application.

I dont agree that they deserve due process, what is the point of anyone going to great expense and time and being vetted etc if they want to emigrate.

These men arriving on dinghys without papers which they have destroyed have no right to live anywhere in Europe the same as I have no right to travel to Florida and demand to be allowed in.

There is huge concern in Europe about these single male migrants coming from countries where women have no rights. Indeed it is because half the population of these countries are treated like chattels that these countries are ****holes. If we dont control immigration of men and its always men from these places then the far right gets more and more votes and then its each country for itself protecting their own boarders and then the EU which keeps the peace if nothing else is destoyed.

The EU is already under great threat with Brexit and we now have Italy and France at odds because Italy is saying NO to immigration, the Italians through the ballot box have NO, they couldnt be clearer.

We need deals struck with Muslim countries to take these economic migrants back, they will keep coming as long as there is a chance eventually that they will be allowed to stay and the reality is they have no skills to offer and they cant integrate in countries where women arent mens property to do what they like with.

oscarBravo

tretorn wrote: »

I dont agree that they deserve due process...

Happily, that's not up to you. Everyone deserves due process.

Deciding that some people don't deserve due process because of their nationality or the colour of their skin is racist. It's tacky and unpleasant, but at least it has some sort of twisted internal logic.

Deciding that some people don't deserve due process because they are in a dinghy... I don't even have a word for that. It's a special new kind of wtf.

Das Reich

Brian? wrote: »

If your taste in politicians is populist proto fascist, he really hits the mark. Anti gay marriage, anti immgration and pro Trump. He’s even joined forces with Steve Bannon.



They are genuine asylum seekers, in that they’re seeking asylum. They may or may not be genuine refugees, but they deserve due process like everyone else. I doubt “method of transport upon arrival” will ever be added to an asylum application.

Lega is not anti gay, is not pro Trump, much more likely pro Putin. And was always anti fascist, they seek federalism and not big state. And I never met a fascist that is pro Trump, they actually hate anything that have to do with USA.

Brian?

Das Reich wrote: »

Lega is not anti gay, is not pro Trump, much more likely pro Putin. And was always anti fascist, they seek federalism and not big state. And I never met a fascist that is pro Trump, they actually hate anything that have to do with USA.

I never said Silvani is anti gay. I said anti gay marriage, which he is. That may be a personal position, rather than a party not.

There are plenty of fascists who like Trump. “Some very fine people” like David Duke, Richard Spencer and the other alt right “white nationalists”.

Unless we’re talking old school Italian fascism

Brian?

tretorn wrote: »

I dont agree that they deserve due process, what is the point of anyone going to great expense and time and being vetted etc if they want to emigrate.

Luckily it’s not up to you or people who share your views.

These men arriving on dinghys without papers which they have destroyed have no right to live anywhere in Europe the same as I have no right to travel to Florida and demand to be allowed in.

Wrong. You can both claim asylum and have your claim reviews.

There is huge concern in Europe about these single male migrants coming from countries where women have no rights. Indeed it is because half the population of these countries are treated like chattels that these countries are ****holes. If we dont control immigration of men and its always men from these places then the far right gets more and more votes and then its each country for itself protecting their own boarders and then the EU which keeps the peace if nothing else is destoyed.

The EU is already under great threat with Brexit and we now have Italy and France at odds because Italy is saying NO to immigration, the Italians through the ballot box have NO, they couldnt be clearer.

We need deals struck with Muslim countries to take these economic migrants back, they will keep coming as long as there is a chance eventually that they will be allowed to stay and the reality is they have no skills to offer and they cant integrate in countries where women arent mens property to do what they like with.

So is it only Muslims you want to keep out?

4068ac1elhodqr

Brian? wrote: »

I never said Silvani is anti gay. I said anti gay marriage, which he is.

But is he (the democratically elected leader) any more anti-gay/marrige that the hundreds of thousands of migrants arriving? Would certainly think not.

Anyway only circa 27 countries on Earth even allow gay marrige, maybe you hold distain for all nations that don't.

Maybe begin instead, with some critisim of places like Indonesia that often enjoy public floggings for hand holding, drinking or betting on football. Or read about the chap in Dubai that was locked up - for briefly touched a chaps hip in a busy nightclub as he tried to walk past.

Similarily you voice discontent for the democratically elected POTUS, the US is often refered to as the leader of the free world, perhaps an old fashioned dictatorship is the ideal way forward if you outright reject their choice of selection.

Brian?

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

But is he (the democratically elected leader) any more anti-gay/marrige that the hundreds of thousands of migrants arriving? Would certainly think not.

The people arriving aren’t being held up as the finest politician ever witnessed, as claimed on this thread. Which is what I was responding to.

Anyway only circa 27 countries on Earth even allow gay marrige, maybe you hold distain for all nations that don't.

Disapproval, not distain.

Maybe begin instead, with some critisim of places like Indonesia that often enjoy public floggings for hand holding, drinking or betting on football. Or read about the chap in Dubai that was locked up - for briefly touched a chaps hip in a busy nightclub as he tried to walk past.

Similarily you voice discontent for the democratically elected POTUS, the US is often refered to as the leader of the free world, perhaps an old fashioned dictatorship is the ideal way forward if you outright reject their choice of selection.

Irrelevant whataboutery. I am responding to the assertion that Silvani is an admirable politician. I find very little about him admirable.

4068ac1elhodqr

Brian? wrote: »

The people arriving aren’t being held up as the finest politician ever witnessed, as claimed on this thread. Which is what I was responding to.

That's one persons subject view and largely irrelevant anyway.
He's still the democratically elected leader, so welcome to a typical recent european democractic election.

Brian? wrote: »

Disapproval, not distain.

Again, like it or not, accept it and welcome yourself again to democracy.
Same goes for Trump, Brexit or whatever you may not 'like', you still have to 'accept and respect' the outcomes of a democratic event.

Brian? wrote: »

...I am responding to the assertion that Silvani is an admirable politician. I find very little about him admirable.

Again, finally. Welcome once again to democracy, please do enjoy your stay.

Brian?

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

That's one persons subject view and largely irrelevant anyway.
He's still the democratically elected leader, so welcome to a typical recent european democractic election.


Again, like it or not, accept it and welcome yourself again to democracy.
Same goes for Trump, Brexit or whatever you may not 'like', you still have to 'accept and respect' the outcomes of a democratic event.


Again, finally. Welcome once again to democracy, please do enjoy your stay.

What exactly is your point here? I can’t make legitimate criticisms of politicians because they’ve been democratically elected?

I have to accept the outcomes of elections. I absolutely have no idea by what you mean that I have to respect them, in this context. At no stage have I claimed that the elections of Silvani or Trump were illegitimate. I just disagree with them.

Again I’ll point out the flow of this conversation, before you applied your razor sharp debating methods. A poster said Silvani was the greatest politician they’d ever seen. I disagreed. You seem to be intimating that I shouldn’t criticise Silvani or Trump because they were democratically elected, which as well as being nonsense is nothing to do with the point at hand.

4068ac1elhodqr

Brian? wrote: »

What exactly is your point here? I can’t make legitimate criticisms of politicians because they’ve been democratically elected?

I have to accept the outcomes of elections. I absolutely have no idea by what you mean that I have to respect them, in this context. At no stage have I claimed that the elections of Silvani or Trump were illegitimate. I just disagree with them.

Again I’ll point out the flow of this conversation, before you applied your razor sharp debating methods. A poster said Silvani was the greatest politician they’d ever seen. I disagreed. You seem to be intimating that I shouldn’t criticise Silvani or Trump because they were democratically elected, which as well as being nonsense is nothing to do with the point at hand.

And what exactly is your point?

You seem to have expressed so many issues with the elected leaders of Italy & the US, even ballparking them both as 'populist proto fascist', this is hardly respectful is it now?

Brian? wrote: »

If your taste in politicians is populist proto fascist, he really hits the mark. Anti gay marriage, anti immgration and pro Trump.

Why not go ahead and call the actual people of these nations fascists, for installing these leaders through proper due diligence of their very own democratic systems.
Again only 27 nations allow gay marriage so why single out these two. Australia has stricter migration rules, why not have a go at them? Rocketman Kim gets along with Trump now, with regular meeting regarding de-nuc and economic growth, why not mention Kim?

You disagree/dislike with the results of two democratic elections? Ok, so what.

Instead of resorting to name-calling (which is wasteful and distasteful anyway), even after claiming you respect them or their positions.

- Why not explore, then address, the actual circumstances for these (and other events occuring e.g. Brexit) if you do not 'agree' with any of them.

Brian?

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

And what exactly is your point?

I stated my point quite clearly:


Again I’ll point out the flow of this conversation, before you applied your razor sharp debating methods. A poster said Silvani was the greatest politician they’d ever seen. I disagreed.

You seem to have expressed so many issues with the elected leaders of Italy & the US, even ballparking them both as 'populist proto fascist', this is hardly respectful is it now?

I could call them a lot worse, so I think it’s pretty respectful. And more importantly, accurate

Why not go ahead and call the actual people of these nations fascists, for installing these leaders through proper due diligence of their very own democratic systems.

Because that’s not what I think. I think the people of Italy and the US were hoodwinked.

Again only 27 nations allow gay marriage so why single out these two. Australia has stricter migration rules, why not have a go at them

Why would I? No one brought them up in a thread about Muslim immigration in Europe. Surprised?

? Rocketman Kim gets along with Trump now, with regular meeting regarding de-nuc and economic growth, why not mention Kim?

Why would I mention Kim. No one was calling him out as a brilliant politician. Remember, that’s what I was replying to.

You disagree/dislike with the results of two democratic elections? Ok, so what.

Brilliant. You’re the one who brought it up. I reply and you say “so what” when I answer you. That’s pure class.

Instead of resorting to name-calling (which is wasteful and distasteful anyway), even after claiming you respect them or their positions.

- Why not explore, then address, the actual circumstances for these (and other events occuring e.g. Brexit) if you do not 'agree' with any of them.

I do regularly on threads pertaining to those subjects. I don’t bring them up randomly in a thread about Muslim immigrantion into Europe.

I think you’ve reached peak whataboutery. But am eager to see if you can go bigger.

I replied to a very specific statement. You haven’t actually addressed that. Do you admire Silvani?

4068ac1elhodqr

Brian? wrote: »

I think the people of Italy and the US were hoodwinked.

Brilliant!

Perhaps that single line sums up your frame of mind, perhaps your mask has slipped and blindfolded world view exposed just perfectly.

I.e. Something occurs that you don't agree with
- ah sure, they were 'Hoodwinked'.

Rather than any acceptance of democratic events, or explore their causation. No, instead let's just take the 'easy option' and say they were fake, false, wrong, slight of hand or indeed 'Hoodwinked' hoodwinked I tell ye!'.

Very good, and with that, tally ho.

Midlife

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Brilliant!

Perhaps that single line sums up your frame of mind, perhaps your mask has slipped and blindfolded world view exposed just perfectly.

I.e. Something occurs that you don't agree with
- ah sure, they were 'Hoodwinked'.

Rather than any acceptance of democratic events, or explore their causation. No, instead let's just take the 'easy option' and say they were fake, false, wrong, slight of hand or indeed 'Hoodwinked' hoodwinked I tell ye!'.

Very good, and with that, tally ho.

Slightly OT but would you not say a significant proportion of the Brexit campaigning was falsification?

I mean there are reasons for wanting out of Europe and the remain campaign didn't exactly cover themselves in glory but there were lies and falsehoods abounding from the leave campaign.

Brian?

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Brilliant!

Perhaps that single line sums up your frame of mind, perhaps your mask has slipped and blindfolded world view exposed just perfectly.

I.e. Something occurs that you don't agree with
- ah sure, they were 'Hoodwinked'.

Rather than any acceptance of democratic events, or explore their causation. No, instead let's just take the 'easy option' and say they were fake, false, wrong, slight of hand or indeed 'Hoodwinked' hoodwinked I tell ye!'.

Very good, and with that, tally ho.

You seem very willing to ignore 99% of what I write and fill in the gaps with your own imagination. Please respond to my whole posts or not at all.

I accept they were democratic events. That doesn’t mean people weren’t lied to. Brexiters lies about the consequences of Brexit. Trump lies about the causes of the erosion of the middle class. Silvani lies about the existential threat caused by migration.

I’m happy to discuss their causation. As I said, at the appropriate times in the appropriate threads. Not in response to someone calling Silivani the greatest politician they’d ever seen.

Dannyriver

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Brilliant!

Perhaps that single line sums up your frame of mind, perhaps your mask has slipped and blindfolded world view exposed just perfectly.

I.e. Something occurs that you don't agree with
- ah sure, they were 'Hoodwinked'.

Rather than any acceptance of democratic events, or explore their causation. No, instead let's just take the 'easy option' and say they were fake, false, wrong, slight of hand or indeed 'Hoodwinked' hoodwinked I tell ye!'.

Very good, and with that, tally ho.

Calm down, people have been hoodwinked by politicians/corporations/marketing since time memorial. To recognise lies and deceit where it obviously exists is the epitome of democracy not the other way around.

4068ac1elhodqr

Dannyriver wrote: »

Calm down, people have been hoodwinked by politicians/corporations/marketing since time memorial. To recognise lies and deceit where it obviously exists is the epitome of democracy not the other way around.

Indeed so feel free to supply a single example of a '100% perfect' democratic election/referendum. Whereby every single fact, promise or manifesto proposal was perfect and entirely correct.

I.e. You can't.

It's not a perfect system, but it's the best that is available. To make a mockery of it and resort to name calling the 'democratic winners' as fascists, is just one of the glorious freedoms of such a society. Try it over in N'Korea perhaps and report back?

Dannyriver

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Indeed so feel free to supply a single example of a '100% perfect' democratic election/referendum. Whereby every single fact, promise or manifesto proposal was perfect and entirely correct.

I.e. You can't.

It's not a perfect system, but it's the best that is available. To make a mockery of it and resort to name calling the 'democratic winners' as fascists, is just one of the glorious freedoms of such a society. Try it over in N'Korea perhaps and report back?

I never called them fascists or racist or whatever name you ve decided everyone who dosen t support MAGA or Brexit is calling them. But I do think they ve been misled and lied to on a massive scale and unfortunately they ve believed them.

4068ac1elhodqr

Dannyriver wrote: »

I never called them fascists or racist or whatever name you ve decided everyone who dosen t support MAGA or Brexit is calling them. But I do think they ve been misled and lied to on a massive scale and unfortunately they ve believed them.

Not you, but Brian? (above), indicated clearly he regards Italy's electorate and/or their elected leader as a 'populist proto fascist', charming stuff eh?

Brian?

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Not you, but Brian? (above), indicated clearly he regards Italy's electorate and/or their elected leader as a 'populist proto fascist', charming stuff eh?

You can’t respond directly to my posts anymore? You just fancy a few side swipes.


I regard some of their leaders proto fascists. None of the Italians I know are fascist, but I’m sure some are. I still can’t understand what post you’re trying to make. If fascists are democratically elected, they’re still fascists. You think I should respect the fact they’re democratically elected and say nothing?

Midlife

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Not you, but Brian? (above), indicated clearly he regards Italy's electorate and/or their elected leader as a 'populist proto fascist', charming stuff eh?

And your argument is you can't call them that because they were democratically elected?

Surely you should be arguing that he's incorrect rather than it's something he shouldn't say.

4068ac1elhodqr

Brian? wrote: »

If fascists are democratically elected, they’re still fascists.

But are they actually fascists? That's the real question.

The Italian leader, Trump and perhaps you'd throw Brexit (and it's 17.4m voters) in the mix too as a outright fascist movements also?

Protectionists, idealists, yes likely so.
Leaning slightly towards one side of a traditional universal view, maybe that too.

But, dictatorial power, forcible suppression of any opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy? Not so much eh.

Dannyriver

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

But are they actually fascists? That's the real question.

The Italian leader, Trump and perhaps you'd throw Brexit (and it's 17.4m voters) in the mix too as a outright fascist movements also?

Protectionists, idealists, yes likely so.
Leaning slightly towards one side of a traditional universal view, maybe that too.

But, dictatorial power, forcible suppression of any opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy? Not so much eh.

think you ve misunderstood Brian's point

4068ac1elhodqr

Dannyriver wrote: »

think you ve misunderstood Brian's point

So just the leader of the free world and Italy are fascists then, ah well not so bad overall.

Brian?

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

But are they actually fascists? That's the real question.

The Italian leader, Trump and perhaps you'd throw Brexit (and it's 17.4m voters) in the mix too as a outright fascist movements also?

Protectionists, idealists, yes likely so.
Leaning slightly towards one side of a traditional universal view, maybe that too.

But, dictatorial power, forcible suppression of any opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy? Not so much eh.

Again you edit my post to make it look like I said something I didn’t.

Trump is not a fascist. He’s a populist demagogue. Silvani is a proto fascist, not an actual fascist. You understand the difference?

I’m not calling anyone a fascist. Ok? Now let’s move on.

I’m asking a simple question:

If a fascist is democratically elected, are you ok with me criticizing them?

Brian?

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

So just the leader of the free world and Italy are fascists then, ah well not so bad overall.

This is a straw man. I never called either fascists.

4068ac1elhodqr

Brian? wrote: »

If a fascist is democratically elected, are you ok with me criticizing them?

Sure go for it, assuming they get elected by suppression of any opposition, particularily difficult in the Western democratic world, in current times or any forseeable future time.

Identifying a 'direct predecessor' to any such an identity is largely subjective in any case, highly speculative and really not common outside of 'extreme opinion'.