8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

yourdeadwright

Overheal wrote: »

If the country forces you to keep it then it is the country’s fault you remain pregnant.

Again she never mentioned the country forced her to keep it , she said it was the countrys fault she got pregant due to no contraceptions ,
4 times she didnt learn , she needs to take responsibilty at some stage

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Again she never mentioned the country forced her to keep it , she said it was the countrys fault she got pregant due to no contraceptions ,
4 times she didnt learn , she needs to take responsibilty at some stage

Yeah she really should have stopped knocking herself up all by herself. All her responsibility.

The laws of this country prevented access to or information about contraception, that's probably some woman's fault too.

Billy86

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Orginal poster never mentioned marital rape , She simply said her mother wanted 3 kids but had 7 dues to contraception and its the countries fault ,

Whats that got to do with the 8th ???

I said be more resonsible , If its rape dont blame the countey blame your grand father for being a rapist ,
Its pretty straight forward ,

Also to blame was the lack of legal protection for wives against being raped.

But that is not what the 8th amendment is, hence you seem to have been mistaken about your claim of people "blaming the 8th" for men raping their wives.

SusieBlue

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Again she never mentioned the country forced her to keep it , she said it was the countrys fault she got pregant due to no contraceptions ,
4 times she didnt learn , she needs to take responsibilty at some stage

So what should she have done? Pray tell, what would your advice be to her, given the circumstances and how society was at that time?

Any responsibility for the man who got her pregnant or is it all her fault?

spookwoman

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Orginal poster never mentioned marital rape , She simply said her mother wanted 3 kids but had 7 dues to contraception and its the countries fault ,

Whats that got to do with the 8th ???

WTF are you on about were did the OP say that it was to do with the 8th. No where. I posted it to show the line of posts where rape came into the conversation.

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I said be more resonsible , If its rape dont blame the countey blame your grand father for being a rapist ,
Its pretty straight forward ,

Are you for real. did you read the post about the woman who was trying to be responsible and saying no more sex to her husband. He went to the local clergyman and he told her how to be a good wife.
Women back there were 2nd class citizens if they were lucky. I don't know what sex you are but how would you like it if say you were female and married that you had to spread your legs and take it when your husband wanted sex and that you had to give birth every time he got you pregnant even if it was very shortly after giving birth. Or how would you like it if say you are male that a priest told you to bend over and take it up the ass to keep your partner or husband happy. I doubt you would. Again this is nothing to do with the 8th.
I seriously wonder if you are really going to vote yes with that attitude and I pity any female in your family that touch wood has a crises pregnancy.

Apologies for being crude

Mint Sauce

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Is he from another planet altogether?

Maybe he has an account on here and is the one posting abortion is a Wicca, communist, Islamic plot.

Actually in all seriousness he most likely took it from an actual article youth defense have on their site.

Billy86

Also, Facebook seem to be under the impression that foreign entities might try to influence our referendum through targeted advertisements as happened with Brexit and the 2016 US election. Our data protection commissioner also has the same concerns.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44043168

Facebook has said it will block ads relating to Ireland's forthcoming referendum on abortion that do not originate from advertisers inside the country.

There had been worries in Ireland that foreign ads could influence the result of the vote.

Facebook has not applied such a policy to British elections or referendums.

Facebook has said it will block ads relating to Ireland's forthcoming referendum on abortion that do not originate from advertisers inside the country.

There had been worries in Ireland that foreign ads could influence the result of the vote.

Facebook has not applied such a policy to British elections or referendums.

A poll that could repeal the Eighth Amendment in the Republic of Ir

...

In April, Irish data protection commissioner Helen Dixon said it was possible that foreign actors could try to sway the referendum.

Reports in The Times newspaper's Ireland edition had also highlighted the problem.

Facebook said that its ban on ads not from the Republic of Ireland would be effective from 8 May. The company will rely partly on reports from campaign groups that identify such ads.

Shocking, I know! That damn Soros, he just can't help himself I guess...

looksee

More to the point, that Leitrim moron said that the 8th had saved thousands and thousands of babies. How exactly?

If a councillor doesn't understand the implications of the 8th amendment, what hope is there for the pious and self-righteous automatons who will be voting on something they don't understand.

kylith

Esmeralda Inexpensive Balloonist wrote: »

Yeah she really should have stopped knocking herself up all by herself. All her responsibility.

The laws of this country prevented access to or information about contraception, that's probably some woman's fault too.

Let’s not forget the priest that threatened her with hell for not performing her wifely duties instead of telling her husband not to be such a pig. That was probably some woman’s fault too.

pleas advice

looksee wrote: »

More to the point, that Leitrim moron said that the 8th had saved thousands and thousands of babies. How exactly?
.

from the thread in the Atheism forum:

Peregrinus wrote: »

It’s rather loosely based on this report, commissioned by the Pro Life Campaign and published in 2016, which in turn is based on calculations by Brendan Lynch, a consulting actuary.

Essentially, the actuary’s calculation looks at abortion rates (percentage of pregnancies terminated by abortion) in England and Wales, Spain and Belgium between 1994 and 2014, and in Portugal between 2007 and 2014. If you apply those rates to Irish pregnancies, you can work out how many Irish abortions there would have been if Ireland had experienced English, Spanish, etc. rates of abortion. You can then compare that to the amount of abortions we actually had, and work out how many extra births we had on account of our lower abortion rate.

Expressed in annual terms and rather round figures, over the period we had 3,750 more births a year than we would have had if we experienced the Belgian abortion rate, 6,000 more births a year than if we experienced the Spanish rate, 7,000 more births a year than if we experienced the Portuguese rate, and 10,000 more births a year than if we experienced the English rate.

...

and it does take into account Irish abortions abroad

yourdeadwright

yourdeadwright wrote: »

if its your own fault then its your own fault ,
Not the countries

Own fault? Can a woman get pregnant on her own now?
How exactly is it her own fault? Because she had sex with her husband?

Dressing gown

kylith wrote: »

Esmeralda Inexpensive Balloonist wrote: »

Yeah she really should have stopped knocking herself up all by herself. All her responsibility.

The laws of this country prevented access to or information about contraception, that's probably some woman's fault too.

Let’s not forget the priest that threatened her with hell for not performing her wifely duties instead of telling her husband not to be such a pig. That was probably some woman’s fault too.

Wow I’ve just come back to this thread to find my dead father called a pig and a rapist and my mother stupid. Well I really need to step away. Show some bloody respect people.

That did for this evening that are clueless. The law of the land meant contraception was illegal. Abortion was illegal. And wedding vows included a vow to obey your husband. That was the way the country, and its laws, worked. The dots that some failed to join is that the 8th prevents abortion still, while some of the other laws and marriage vows have fallen away. For the information of those horrible people calling my father names, my parents were probably the most in love people I’ve ever met. Which meant his early death leaving many kids behind all the more tragic. I also never said how many kids are in my family. Back off on insulting people’s parents, and the dead. I’d like a better world for my kids. My daughters especially. Women are still second class in this country.

Edward M

looksee wrote: »

More to the point, that Leitrim moron said that the 8th had saved thousands and thousands of babies. How exactly?

If a councillor doesn't understand the implications of the 8th amendment, what hope is there for the pious and self-righteous automatons who will be voting on something they don't understand.

Pious and self righteous automatons?
My sister and one niece I know of are voting no, she is not pious, maybe self righteous, but believing firmly in her right to vote no as she doesn't agree with abortion in all circumstances.
It is her contention that no woman should have an absolute right to abort a pregnancy.
There are many like them.
From our house, if all are to be believed, its a unanimous yes now, that's four.
I travelled a bit today, I was in small local towns, Mohill and Carrigallen in Leitrim.
Drumlish, Ballinalee and Granard in Co Longford.
Ballinagh, Gowna and Arva in Co Cavan, not a single yes poster that I could in any of them, lots of no posters, I don't know if that's significant, but in rural areas it looks like the yes campaign is flagging.

Wrongway1985

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Iv no issue with the Vote YES but no need for people to blame everything on the 8th

yourdeadwright wrote: »

These things called words and speaking , Again iv no problem with Voting YES at all,
Iv a problem with the ****e some yes voter go on with, People have a responsibly in themselves when its there or not ,

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Your wrong as it may make them from making the same mistake twice,
Again I'm all for Vote yes but people can't throw away responsibility ,

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Who said punished ?
I said they should learn repsonsiblity , Sorry i forgot your one of those who doesnt read but think ooh god this person goes agins twhat i think attack attck ,
Im all for YES all im saying is people also need to be respinisble for themselfs

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Yes and there was millions of other people in oreland at that time that only had the number of children they wanted , Take responsibilty for yourself and dont blame the country ,
Again im all for YES

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Marital rape was the cause not the 8th , Her husband being a pig was the cause not the 8th ,
The 8th was something after the fact , and yes i dont mind the Yes vote

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Im ok with voting YES , im not ok with people making **** up

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I saying vote Yes by all means but lets not forget about

Look quit the business of I'm saying yes, okay with yes, don't mind yes etc. over and over again it's a smokescreen, if people hadn't seen it the first time they've seen it the 3rd and 4th.

Why use the notion you are okay with it but continue to follow up stating you are fine with yes (for the 67th time) with speculative efforts to bamboozle the yes campaign?

looksee

pleas advice wrote: »

from the thread in the Atheism forum:


and it does take into account Irish abortions abroad

That's not the 8th though, that is the fact that abortion is illegal as dictated by the constitution. The 8th doesn't make any difference to the fact that abortion was not and is not allowed.

looksee

Edward M wrote: »

Pious and self righteous automatons?
My sister and one niece I know of are voting no, she is not pious, maybe self righteous, but believing firmly in her right to vote no as she doesn't agree with abortion in all circumstances.
It is her contention that no woman should have an absolute right to abort a pregnancy.
There are many like them.

Like I said...

crustybla

[IMG]http://<img src="http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/bishop-byle.jpg"/>[/IMG]

Grayson

Billy86 wrote: »

As per usual always, the resident lunatics on the no side have got it so far wrong that they've wound up proving a point the yes side were never even making.

Abortion when the mother's health was in serious danger was legalised in Germany during the Weimar Republic - almost a full century ago - until the Nazis made it a capital offense to abort a healthy, Aryan child. Instead they gave our national medals of honour depending on how many Aryan babies a woman could pump out (4 for bronze, 6 for silver, 8 for gold).

So to any 'no' voters taking glee in this idiots comments, just remember you're getting that enjoyment from being on the same side of history as Hitler.

He also said it would bring in the murder of political opponents. The guys nuts. How was he ever elected? Apparently he once went on a rant using the n word.

Billy86

Grayson wrote: »

He also said it would bring in the murder of political opponents. The guys nuts. How was he ever elected? Apparently he once went on a rant using the n word.

Because in certain areas (sometimes even in full countries ) it's largely about being as dumb as possible and as loud as possible when it comes to elections, rather than having the slightest clue what you're actually on about.

PhoenixParker

pleas advice wrote: »

from the thread in the Atheism forum:


and it does take into account Irish abortions abroad

That’s a very simplistic analysis.

The estimated abortion rate is based on Johnson’s archive which is based solely on the uk stats, ie on the number of women giving an Irish address in the UK.
johnstons archive

There’s an incentive for Irish women to use a UK address because that makes it free as I understand it. Many also give a different address because they prefer to be more anonymous.

Many also take abortion pills in Ireland and many go to other countries to have abortions.

A single study tracks over a thousand Irish and Northern Irish women who got abortion pills from a single provider in a three year period.
The Research Article

The estimates they make start with an artificially low Irish abortion rate.

Then they use one basic statistic - births vs abortions to make projections in Ireland. There is no reason to take that approach, it’s one of several potential options. At best it’s ridiculously crude.

A more nuanced look could, for instance, calculate abortion rates in different age brackets and project that onto Irish demographics.

The truth is we have no idea what the actual abortion rate is for Irish women or how it compares internationally.

That makes it virtually impossible to “love both” and offer support and services that might persuade women to make a different choice.

Voting repeal allows us to gather statistics, gives doctors a chance to talk to women and removes the cloud of fear so women can talk about their decision more freely with those close to them

Love both, vote yes.

yourdeadwright

Dressing gown wrote: »

Wow I’ve just come back to this thread to find my dead father called a pig and a rapist and my mother stupid. Well I really need to step away. Show some bloody respect people.

That did for this evening that are clueless. The law of the land meant contraception was illegal. Abortion was illegal. And wedding vows included a vow to obey your husband. That was the way the country, and its laws, worked. The dots that some failed to join is that the 8th prevents abortion still, while some of the other laws and marriage vows have fallen away. For the information of those horrible people calling my father names, my parents were probably the most in love people I’ve ever met. Which meant his early death leaving many kids behind all the more tragic. I also never said how many kids are in my family. Back off on insulting people’s parents, and the dead. I’d like a better world for my kids. My daughters especially. Women are still second class in this country.

As usual everyone is in a hurry to be insulted ,

I never called your father a rapist or a pig , I said any man who rapes there wife is still a rapist or any man who forces an unwilling wife into sex or goes to the local preist about it is a pig,

PhoneMain

Hi,

Pretty much undecided at this stage for various reasons. Just have a few questions.

1) I know the suggested term for unrestricted abortion should the reforendum be passed is 12 weeks. What chances are there that this upper limit will be extended out to the point of viability?

2) Ultimately, what abortion window do pro choice advocates want? Do they want full, unrestricted abortion up to 24 weeks? I'm showing my ignorance here but is 24 weeks enough, do some want abortion available up to the point of birth? (Just being curious and asking a question, please don't attack me!)

3) Is there a chance that should there be a massive swing between successive governments (e.g. If PBP/Solidarity management to form a government and FG/FF succeeded them again, could we get vastly swinging abortion legislation every few government cycles?

4) Do the pro life side accept abortion in any form e.g. in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities?

Looking forward to any responses I get, this referendum is so divisive!!!

Ave Sodalis

PhoneMain wrote: »

Hi,

Pretty much undecided at this stage for various reasons. Just have a few questions.

1) I know the suggested term for unrestricted abortion should the reforendum be passed is 12 weeks. What chances are there that this upper limit will be extended out to the point of viability?

Pretty much not existent. It took 35 years, a woman's death and a lot of suffering before politicians even looked at the 8th. 12 weeks bring us in line with the rest of Europe and the vast vast vast majority of abortions happen before 12 weeks. There is a higher chance of abortion remaining illegal.

2) Ultimately, what abortion window do pro choice advocates want? Do they want full, unrestricted abortion up to 24 weeks? I'm showing my ignorance here but is 24 weeks enough, do some want abortion available up to the point of birth? (Just being curious and asking a question, please don't attack me!)

I'm content with the legislation proposed but I cannot speak for all. I cannot see any campaigns for an increase happening after the referendum.

3) Is there a chance that should there be a massive swing between successive governments (e.g. If PBP/Solidarity management to form a government and FG/FF succeeded them again, could we get vastly swinging abortion legislation every few government cycles?

I genuinely believe that abortion is far too dangerous a subject for politicians and unless there is public backlash, there won't be any changes.

4) Do the pro life side accept abortion in any form e.g. in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities?

I can't answer this as pro-life, but from this thread, yes they do.

seamus

PhoneMain wrote: »

1) I know the suggested term for unrestricted abortion should the reforendum be passed is 12 weeks. What chances are there that this upper limit will be extended out to the point of viability?

Hard to give a "chances" really without a crystal ball. It will be rare for any government to touch this legislation again except to make minor amendments. At present nobody is calling for an extension beyond 12 weeks. A poll on Sunday found that a majority of voters felt that 12 weeks was the appropriate length. So in my opinion the odds of an extension beyond that within the next 2/3 decades are basically zero.

2) Ultimately, what abortion window do pro choice advocates want? Do they want full, unrestricted abortion up to 24 weeks? I'm showing my ignorance here but is 24 weeks enough, do some want abortion available up to the point of birth? (Just being curious and asking a question, please don't attack me!)

There is no singular agreement across pro-choice groups. Some countries have abortion up to birth - however it has to be remembered that this law will only permit terminations of pregnancy. So it will not be possible, under this amendment, to permit doctors to end a pregnancy and kill a viable foetus. Even if abortion was extended to birth, the obligation will be to end the pregnancy and then treat the child which has been born.

It will never be constitutional to allow late-stage abortions and kill the feotus. The proposed amendment specifically mentions "termination of pregnancies".

3) Is there a chance that should there be a massive swing between successive governments (e.g. If PBP/Solidarity management to form a government and FG/FF succeeded them again, could we get vastly swinging abortion legislation every few government cycles?

I don't believe so. It's too divisive a topic. Any party with a Dail majority who put in major revisions would be savaged at the next election, which would come quickly as party/coalition members revolted. Unless PBP or Renua managed to land a majority government, the legislation is going nowhere.

4) Do the pro life side accept abortion in any form e.g. in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities?

Like the pro-choice side, the pro-life side have no singular agenda. Strictly speaking, "pro-life" means "no abortion, ever", but some do support it for rape. It's rare that they support it in the case of FFAs, that's usually above the line for them. But some do.
There's a strong tether between pro-life and religion, so most pro-lifers view an FFA as a challenge from God to be accepted and endured or similar.

ArmaniJeanss

PhoneMain wrote: »

Hi,

Pretty much undecided at this stage for various reasons. Just have a few questions.


1) I know the suggested term for unrestricted abortion should the reforendum be passed is 12 weeks. What chances are there that this upper limit will be extended out to the point of viability?

Very little chance of an upward move I think.

PhoneMain wrote: »

2) Ultimately, what abortion window do pro choice advocates want? Do they want full, unrestricted abortion up to 24 weeks? I'm showing my ignorance here but is 24 weeks enough, do some want abortion available up to the point of birth? (Just being curious and asking a question, please don't attack me!)

I'd have been happy with 10 weeks personally. Or 12 weeks with a one-week cooling off/notice period. So it's slightly going beyond my wishes but as I've said prev it's close to impossible to get terms which everyone agrees on and is not a reason to vote no.

PhoneMain wrote: »

3) Is there a chance that should there be a massive swing between successive governments (e.g. If PBP/Solidarity management to form a government and FG/FF succeeded them again, could we get vastly swinging abortion legislation every few government cycles?

It's possible, Fianna Fail in particular might look for stricter than the current legislation. If PBP get into coalition as a minor partner then their 'sweetner' is more likely to be economic or social welfare related imo.

PhoneMain wrote: »

4) Do the pro life side accept abortion in any form e.g. in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities?

without being able to speak for them I believe many do - though I also think they would be better served voting Repeal and fighting for their preferred legislation - it's really difficult to read some of the stories on this thread or inhershoes and think that keeping the 8th makes sense.

PhoneMain

PhoneMain wrote: »

Hi,

Pretty much undecided at this stage for various reasons. Just have a few questions.

1) I know the suggested term for unrestricted abortion should the reforendum be passed is 12 weeks. What chances are there that this upper limit will be extended out to the point of viability?

2) Ultimately, what abortion window do pro choice advocates want? Do they want full, unrestricted abortion up to 24 weeks? I'm showing my ignorance here but is 24 weeks enough, do some want abortion available up to the point of birth? (Just being curious and asking a question, please don't attack me!)

3) Is there a chance that should there be a massive swing between successive governments (e.g. If PBP/Solidarity management to form a government and FG/FF succeeded them again, could we get vastly swinging abortion legislation every few government cycles?

4) Do the pro life side accept abortion in any form e.g. in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities?

Looking forward to any responses I get, this referendum is so divisive!!!

1. The norm across Europe is 12 weeks, the UK is actually an outlier. Most countries have had the same legislation for decades and there has been no push to go beyond 12 weeks. Ireland is more conservative than other European countries, so it's highly unlikely our politicians will go near the issue again.

2. I'm ok with 12 weeks. I think it's the right balance as it gives the woman the chance to make a decision while the pregnancy is in the early stages. Also, the vast majority of abortions happen within this time frame anyway. Abortions at 24 weeks are rare and generally only happen when there is a complication like FFA, risk to the mother, etc.

3. I would say this is highly unlikely - PBP/Solidarity are a minority party and they are not going to get the numbers to push this through, even if they wanted to. Also, 12 weeks has worked across most of Europe for years, in more liberal countries than ours.

January

Aidan Comerford posted this on his fb page earlier.

My wife and I have an intellectually-disabled daughter. She's autistic. She will never understand consent. If she were ever pregnant, it would be through rape. If that ever happened, would you come to our house and tell us what is best for our child? Because that is what your No vote on May 25th would mean, in practice.

She's on the cusp of puberty. She's terrified of blood. She will scream (and I mean SCREAM) when she's cut, and scream even louder if we approach her to help. That can escalate to scratching, kicking and biting. Any trip to A&E might mean restraint or sedation. Can you imagine what it would be like trying to get her through pregnancy?

She doesn't handle it very well when a DVD gets stuck, so how would she handle labour? Are you going to provide support? Because, at the moment, we're struggling to get speech and language therapy for her.

Do you really think that a zygote's right to grow, for example, trumps our disabled daughter's right not to have her rapist's baby?

If we did decide that she should have an abortion, have you ever travelled with an autistic person like my daughter? To say that it is stressful for all concerned is an understatement. And we might arrive in the UK, to find people outside the clinic, roaring at us, calling us murderers.

And if we didn't make that choice, we would have to raise the baby. You might say that we could "simply" put the baby up for adoption. And how would we explain that a girl who can keen for days over a lost doll?

Before this referendum was called, I was ignorant. I had no idea of the myriad of ways that the eighth amendment has affected Irish women's healthcare and rights. I have heard some truly tragic stories, and I would never dream of standing in any woman's house and forcing my choice upon her, especially when I don't have to live with the consequences of that choice.

If tragedy ever strikes our house, don't offer me your sympathy. Sympathy doesn't buy a lot of nappies in Tesco. And don't offer me your "support." That can only be an empty promise.

The only thing I want from you is to vote YES on May 25th, so that WE - and not YOU - could decide what best to do for OUR family.

***

And if you are still set on voting No, and there's an argument forming in your head about disabled people and abortion...just don't. It isn't relevant to this referendum. And in any case, this is my life, not a point-scoring exercise. Instead, re-read this post with an open heart and an open head.

#TogetherforYes
#Repealthe8th

Please share.

bloodless_coup

January wrote: »

Aidan Comerford posted this on his fb page earlier.

What a load of ****e, and using his daughter like that, should be ashamed of himself.

SusieBlue

doylefe wrote: »

What a load of ****e, and using his daughter like that, should be ashamed of himself.

You have no right to criticize how he speaks about his own daughter and his own personal situation.

Why is it a load of sh*te? Do you not think those are legitimate concerns for a father in his position?

Billy86

doylefe wrote: »

What a load of ****e, and using his daughter like that, should be ashamed of himself.

What is your take on the no campaign using disabled children in posters like this despite the likes of Downs Syndrome Ireland asking them no to, as well as numerous 'no' posters on this thread doing the same?