8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

JP Liz V1

Some side we on road to Ed Sheeran concert in Cork last night, wasn't bothered to listen was it yes or no, tbh sick of posters and hearing about it at this stage

AnneFrank

mohawk wrote: »

The silent No voters interest me I have to say. if you feel that you are doing the right thing why not say it?

I assume they don't want to be spoken down to by idealistic millenials a fraction of their age.People at different stages of life have different opinions

gmisk

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

To be honest, I don't even notice the posters anymore. I'm immune to them. I think there are very few people who don't know which way they will vote. I've always been repeal and the posters make not a jot of difference to me. There will be No voters and the posters make not a jot of difference to them.

The poll results of undecideds are not necessarily undecided, they just don't want to tell a stranger which way they want to vote.

I live in rural Ireland and I discuss this all the time - most are in full agreement that the amendment must go - now they could be agreeing with me for peace but most people I speak to under 60 are voting Repeal.

Are you swayed by a poster?

I am not swayed by posters etc but it doesn't mean other people aren't.

I would be very disappointed if it was a no

It wasnt me123

sabat wrote: »

How many septic tank baby dumpers are voting in the referendum? How many nice old ladies that are liked and respected by their families and communities? Your post just proved my point.

Well you missed my point totally. The whole catholic clergy is tinged by Tuam and the 800 babies found in a septic tank. Absolutely disgusting, and these are the ones we know about.

Even little old ladies are not immune to the hypocracy of the catholic church (I work in a nursing home). They are indoctrinated to say their prayers and the rosary but they aren't all dotty.

They have an opinion and it doesn't always agree with the catholic church. And yes they are respected by their families and if they voice a Yes opinion, their families may take note. That works both ways.

SusieBlue

AnneFrank wrote: »

I assume they don't want to be spoken down to by idealistic millenials a fraction of their age.People at different stages of life have different opinions

This isn’t the first time you’ve made a dismissive comment regarding age.
Someone being younger than you does not mean their opinion is worthless and not worth listening to.
‘Idealistic millenails’ - and you wonder why you get people’s backs up on this thread? Give me a break.

AnneFrank

AnneFrank wrote: »

I assume they don't want to be spoken down to by idealistic millenials a fraction of their age.People at different stages of life have different opinions

Your a bit young to go with the auld fella gob****e routine surely, also do you think your own kids are as stupid if they disagree with you?

BabysCoffee

AnneFrank wrote: »

I assume they don't want to be spoken down to by idealistic millenials a fraction of their age.People at different stages of life have different opinions

What age do you think we all are on here?

AnneFrank

AnneFrank wrote: »

I assume they don't want to be spoken down to by idealistic millenials a fraction of their age.People at different stages of life have different opinions

You mean the people that this will actually affect?

crustybla

My 12 year old comes out with some stonkers. My favourite at the moment is 'what's with these posters? Do they think people are stupid? Next they'll be telling us the baby practices yoga in the womb at 9 weeks.' Out of the mouth of babes...

thee glitz

thee glitz wrote: »

Well here you're debating people who'll sell repealing to you for reasons you may well already agree with, but also won't consider accommodating same unless abortion is unrestricted.

And some pro lifers who just don't want it period, and others who try to dress it up nicely, but still don't want it period.

applehunter

crustybla wrote: »

Pro birthers out in force in Waterford today. My car is in the garage for a couple of days so I got a lift to work from my dad. We were driving down the quay, amazed at the amount of them and one standing on the island in the centre of the road holding out leaflets to passing cars. My dad (ancient pensioner that he is) slowed down, put down his window and yelled 'vote yes!' over and over at the top of his voice. I love him so much!

What a courageous man.

iguana

AnneFrank wrote: »

I assume they don't want to be spoken down to by idealistic millenials a fraction of their age.People at different stages of life have different opinions

I'm a solid Gen Xer and the partner I canvassed with last week was definitely a Baby Boomer. Are the imaginary people you are speaking for ok with us? And what about the iGen adults who were also on our canvassing team? Are they ok? Is it just people in their mid/late 20s and 30s that these imaginary undecideds have an issue with and iGen adults in their late teens and early twenties are cool?

Because you know that Millennials aren't actually that young any more right? They are actually well into their adult lives and many are only able to get canvassing in the evenings after helping their kids with their homework. Or did your pull the word Millennial out of you cliche ridden 'derogatory things to say about people younger than me' folder?

applehunter

applehunter wrote: »

What a courageous man.

Thanks again for another informative and enlightening post.
You bring so much to the discussion every time.

threescompany

AnneFrank wrote: »

That's many peoples stance beef, mine included

Me too.....
I was undecided initially but when it became unrestricted I decided, I will be voting no as i could never vote for unrestricted abortion.

applehunter

applehunter wrote: »

What a courageous man.

Well I've had No campaigners shout out of a car window at me for wearing a Yes badge, so you can get off your high horse.

SusieBlue

Flying Fox wrote: »

Well I've had No campaigners shout out of a car window at me for wearing a Yes badge, so you can get off your high horse.

I was screamed at by an old man, who then followed me half way down the road cursing at me, for simply wearing my Repeal jumper.
Wasn’t canvassing or anything was minding my own business.
Classy people.

threescompany

threescompany wrote: »

Me too.....
I was undecided initially but when it became unrestricted I decided, I will be voting no as i could never vote for unrestricted abortion.

12 weeks is not unrestricted, and it is the only practical way to allow for cases of rape. It is also the norm across Europe. Our current laws put us in the company of Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.

BoJack Horseman

threescompany wrote: »

Me too.....
I was undecided initially but when it became unrestricted I decided, I will be voting no as i could never vote for unrestricted abortion.

Ditto.

The free for all the government are pushing crossed a line for me.

I was ok with adding provisos like; rape/incest & FFA to the existing allowance for a risk to the wellbeing of the mother.

I was ok with that, most of the country is.
However, the free for all being offered does not sit well with me.

I'll be voting 'No'.
So will my wife, as will all my family, as are most people I know.
Outside the metro-Dublin bubble, I can see a silent ground swell against the reason-less killing of the unborn.

Despite the polling, I think the referendum will be narrowly defeated.

BoJack Horseman

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Ditto.

The free for all the government are pushing crossed a line for me.

I was ok with adding provisos like; rape/incest & FFA to the existing allowance for a risk to the wellbeing of the mother.

I was ok with that, most of the country is.
However, the free for all being offered does not sit well with me.

I'll be voting 'No'.
So will my wife, as will all my family, as are most people I know.
Outside the metro-Dublin bubble, I can see a silent ground swell against the reason-less killing of the unborn.

I think the referendum will be defeated very narrowly.

This was explored by the Citizen's Assembly and the Oireachtas Committee. A lot of members of both groups would likely have felt the same as you, but having heard the medical and legal evidence they came to the conclusion that access up to 12 weeks is the only practical solution.

How would you suggest legislating for rape cases? Rape is not only notoriously difficult to prove, but the legal process takes many months if not years.

A foetus in early pregnancy is not a baby, it has the potential to become one.

It wasnt me123

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Ditto.

I was ok with adding provisos like; rape/incest & FFA to the existing allowance for a risk to the wellbeing of the mother.

........................
Despite the polling, I think the referendum will be narrowly defeated.

IMO no chance. I live in the country, we are not all uninformed culchies. We are well able to look at what the medical experts say and make our own decision. And you saying your family and friends are all voting the same way doesn't mean we all are.

This will be repealed, body autonomy for all.

PhoenixParker

threescompany wrote: »

Me too.....
I was undecided initially but when it became unrestricted I decided, I will be voting no as i could never vote for unrestricted abortion.

There has never been a case prosecuting the import of abortion pills and I have seen no one genuinely suggesting that such cases should be prosecuted. Essentially the current situation is unrestricted abortion.

The new proposal to allow abortion up to 12 weeks is by contrast is restricted.

As other's have noted it's restricted to a max weeks gestation, 12 weeks(max 8 weeks of knowing you're pregnant)

It also requires the approval and sign off of a doctor to prescribe the pills and a waiting period of three days.

That allows for very important checks, for instance the doctor can step in and offer counselling or assistance to a woman who is being pressured into an abortion or is uncertain about whether it is actually what she needs.

None of those restrictions or routes to support and assistance apply when people are illegally importing abortion pills or travelling to the UK.

I've heard several on the no side talk about needing to offer other better solutions to women looking for abortion.

If they have to talk to their doctor in Ireland, then there's no better opportunity to offer those other and better solutions.

BoJack Horseman

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Ditto.

The free for all the government are pushing crossed a line for me.

I was ok with adding provisos like; rape/incest & FFA to the existing allowance for a risk to the wellbeing of the mother.

I was ok with that, most of the country is.
However, the free for all being offered does not sit well with me.

I'll be voting 'No'.
So will my wife, as will all my family, as are most people I know.
Outside the metro-Dublin bubble, I can see a silent ground swell against the reason-less killing of the unborn.

Despite the polling, I think the referendum will be narrowly defeated.

Even if it was just the provisos as you mention, which are included in the current free for all as you see it, there would still be the same people on here claiming all sorts of BS against them.

AnneFrank

Flying Fox wrote: »

This was explored by the Citizen's Assembly and the Oireachtas Committee. A lot of members of both groups would likely have felt the same as you, but having heard the medical and legal evidence they came to the conclusion that access up to 12 weeks is the only practical solution.

How would you suggest legislating for rape cases? Rape is not only notoriously difficult to prove, but the legal process takes many months if not years.

A foetus in early pregnancy is not a baby, it has the potential to become one.

A 12 week old foetus in the womb is not a clump of cells or an idea of a child that is spoken about here, to lots of people it's a child.

It wasnt me123

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

IMO no chance. I live in the country, we are not all uninformed culchies. We are well able to look at what the medical experts say and make our own decision. And you saying your family and friends are all voting the same way doesn't mean we all are.

This will be repealed, body autonomy for all.

I really hope you're right. I'm in Dublin and conscious I may be in a bit of a bubble, so I find it interesting to hear how its looking in rural areas.

applehunter

Flying Fox wrote: »

I really hope you're right. I'm in Dublin and conscious I may be in a bit of a bubble, so I find it interesting to hear how its looking in rural areas.

This thread is a bubble as well remember.

RobertKK

More info on the poll by Millward Brown.

Compared to their last poll on the 8th amendment:

Yes 45% (-18%)
No 34% (+10%)
Undecided 18% (+5%)
Rest wouldn't give opinion 4%

Recent trends as seen in other polls have continued, becoming a closer battle.

applehunter

Flying Fox wrote: »

Well I've had No campaigners shout out of a car window at me for wearing a Yes badge, so you can get off your high horse.

Did they come on here and declare they were proud to have done so?

AnneFrank

AnneFrank wrote: »

A 12 week old foetus in the womb is not a clump of cells or an idea of a child that is spoken about here, to lots of people it's a child.

That is just a feeling being projected onto it, especially for people who want to have a baby. The actual scientific evidence shows that it doesn't have a brain, doesn't have a nervous system (so can't feel pain) and is nowhere near developed enough to be considered a sentient being. Of course, this gradually changes as the pregnancy progresses further.

dudara

SusieBlue wrote: »

The only small comfort is that should the effort fail and No wins, the EU has already stated that the 8th is breaching human rights and a danger to women, and the UN has referred to our current abortion laws as ‘cruel, inhumane and degrading’.

Hopefully they will put pressure on the government to have another referendum on the matter in the near future.

Never mind the EU. If this referendum fails, I will put pressure on my TDs, my Seanad members and every political avenue that I can access to get another chance. I did not spend 40 years of my life in this country only to be told I am second class because I happen to have a womb.

I call on everyone reading this to keep up the unrelenting pressure.

BoJack Horseman

Flying Fox wrote: »

A foetus in early pregnancy is not a baby, it has the potential to become one.

Odd wording!

"potential"

What is the potential of it becoming something else?

Can a fetus turn into a teddy-bear? A Toyota Yaris? A piece of breaded haddock?

Or, will a fetus always turn into a baby?

The use of the word "potential" implies there could be some doubt as to the outcome.

Ever heard of a fetus that developed into anything other than a baby?

What odd linguistic knots people use.