8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

It wasnt me123

B0jangles wrote: »

Here you go

https://www.todayfm.com/podcasts/86667/Google-Bans-All-Advertising-On-8th-Amendment-Referendum#

This is radio gold. Loving it.

He is very much feeling sorry for himself - can't get his words out quick enough. He is the total victim. Its hilarious, thanks for putting it up.

robarmstrong

January wrote: »

I think Robert is a bit shook, tbh.

He's really upset about dat Google money.

post sponsored by Google.

kylith

RobertKK wrote: »

robarmstrong wrote: »

What do you have to say about the vast majority of medical experts who are disagreeing with what they have to say? Considering that 2 out of that list are staunchly pro-life.

There isn't a vast majority, that is making up your own facts.

How about you stop nit picking and actually answer the question.

Overheal

RobertKK wrote: »

Maybe you see what what experts are saying like four former chairmen of the institute of obstetricians and gynaecologists and another joint chairman in the institute and the HSE working group on maternal mortality.
Then leave your conspiracies for the forum you mod.

Seamus best you to print one post above yours. Lol!

Overheal

joe40 wrote: »

We have always had the option of women travelling to England for abortions, so there has never been a situation where Irish women could not access abortion when needed.
It would be a very different story if all the thousands of women that have had abortions over the last 30 years had been forced to go through with their pregnancies.
Is maternal death rate the only metric to assess a maternity service.
"Another baby born and the mother is still alive - great work gentlemen"
(And they are all men in that letter)

This only applies to women that can afford the time and expense to travel there. Class warfare; more children born into already impoverished homes.

volchitsa

RobertKK wrote: »

So disagreement on the Yes side. Dr Peter Boylan made look silly.

https://twitter.com/8threfnews/status/994298384373698562?s=21

Dr Rhona Mahony said at 9 to 10 weeks gestation that Down Syndrome can be diagnosed with a 99% certainty rate. 50% will abort.
Dr Peter Boylan tried to make out she was wrong.

I can't find this 99% claim from Rhona Mahony. Any chance of a link to the actual source, and not someone else saying she said it?

Edit: I've found 9-12 weeks (not 9-10) but it's still not clear which test this is.

Also interesting that so many women do terminate for Downs, in Ireland.
So much for the ban on abortion being about sending a prolife message. Sounds like people have made up their minds already, when they get the chance to.

RobertKK

bruschi wrote: »

Hi Robert. Havent conversed with you on this before.

One question, if you wouldnt mind giving me your opinion on.

How has the 8th Amendment improved or been a good thing for pregnant women. How has it kept women safe and how specifically, has the 8th amendment made it safer than other countries.

Please dont reference abortion, as the 8th amendment is "The states acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right."

I would say given the medical expert has two lives to look after, the unborn needs the mother to be well so the mother gets primary care, he or she operate at a level where standards have to be extremely high as they work from a position where all life is valued under the 8th. We don't operate under a culture where unborn lives are seen as disposable as a choice.
A no vote removes the value from the unborn life as it will have no rights under Irish law as ruled by the Supreme Court, who said the 8th amendment is the only protection in Irish law for the unborn.
The standards of care in Ireland are world class under the 8th and it has not hindered standards of care, where medical people have followed learned practice.
I believe with the 8th amendment that the duty of care has been extremely high and has instilled a culture where all lives matter, not just some lives matter.
With the 8th amendment, women know their unborn has a value on his or her life. With a Yes vote, we will have certain wildlife whose unborn will have more protections and value in Irish law than the lives of unborn human lives.

robarmstrong

volchitsa wrote: »

I can't find this 99% claim from Rhona Mahony. Any chance of a link to the actual source, and not someone else saying she said it?

She said the test can be administered at 9-10 weeks but the test itself and following scan takes it to 12 weeks, so 2-3 weeks for results.

angeldelight

RobertKK wrote: »

I would say given the medical expert has two lives to look after, the unborn needs the mother to be well so the mother gets primary care, he or she operate at a level where standards have to be extremely high as they work from a position where all life is valued under the 8th. We don't operate under a culture where unborn lives are seen as disposable as a choice.
A no vote removes the value from the unborn life as it will have no rights under Irish law as ruled by the Supreme Court, who said the 8th amendment is the only protection in Irish law for the unborn.
The standards of care in Ireland are world class under the 8th and it has not hindered standards of care, where medical people have followed learned practice.
I believe with the 8th amendment that the duty of care has been extremely high and has instilled a culture where all lives matter, not just some lives matter.
With the 8th amendment, women know their unborn has a value on his or her life. With a Yes vote, we will have certain wildlife whose unborn will have more protections and value in Irish law than the lives of unborn human lives.

If you say it has not hindered standards of care why are
-The head of the Institute of Obstetrics and Gynaecologists
-Master of the National Maternity Hospital
-Master of the Rotunda Maternity Hospital
-Irish Family Planning Organisation
-World Health Organisation
-United Nations

supporting a yes vote?

Calina

RobertKK wrote: »

bruschi wrote: »

Hi Robert. Havent conversed with you on this before.

One question, if you wouldnt mind giving me your opinion on.

How has the 8th Amendment improved or been a good thing for pregnant women. How has it kept women safe and how specifically, has the 8th amendment made it safer than other countries.

Please dont reference abortion, as the 8th amendment is "The states acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right."

I would say given the medical expert has two lives to look after, the unborn needs the mother to be well so the mother gets primary care,

The amendment does not give the mother primary care. It gives her care if she is about to die.

If you believe the mother should have primary care you must vote to remove the 8th amendment.

If you vote to retain it you do not support the mother having primary care.

gmisk

Fundraising now at 94k!!!
http://donate.togetherforyes.ie/

Zubeneschamali

angeldelight wrote: »

If you say it has not hindered standards of care why are
-The head of the Institute of Obstetrics and Gynaecologists
-Master of the National Maternity Hospital
-Master of the Rotunda Maternity Hospital
-Irish Family Planning Organisation
-World Health Organisation
-United Nations

supporting a yes vote?

The stone-cutters control them all!

Yer Da sells Avon

This, from UCD Students Union, is one of the best posters I've seen:

smokingman

RobertKK wrote: »

With a Yes vote, we will have certain wildlife whose unborn will have more protections and value in Irish law than the lives of unborn human lives.

Wildlife eh? ..and the mask slips once again..

juanjo

In case it wasn't posted, the together for yes website was taken down yesterday by a DDOS (distributed denial of service) attack.

http://www.thejournal.ie/together-for-yes-website-shut-down-4004400-May2018/

RobertKK

volchitsa wrote: »

I can't find this 99% claim from Rhona Mahony. Any chance of a link to the actual source, and not someone else saying she said it?

Edit: I've found 9-12 weeks (not 9-10) but it's still not clear which test this is.

Also interesting that so many women do terminate for Downs, in Ireland.
So much for the ban on abortion being about sending a prolife message. Sounds like people have made up their minds already, when they get the chance to.

robarmstrong wrote: »

She said the test can be administered at 9-10 weeks but the test itself and following scan takes it to 12 weeks, so 2-3 weeks for results.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/early-and-accurate-new-dna-blood-tests-take-pregnancy-screening-to-new-levels-1.2007509

Advances in pregnancy screening mean a woman can now find out as early as nine or 10 weeks into her pregnancy, with more than 99 per cent certainty, whether the foetus she is carrying has Down syndrome or Edwards syndrome, two genetic disorders.

It was also on Liveline yesterday I think it was and Joe played Rhona Mahony saying out of 100 women, 50 would then go for an abortion if the test showed Down Syndrome.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Overheal

juanjo wrote: »

In case it wasn't posted, the together for yes website was taken down yesterday by a DDOS (distributed denial of service) attack.

http://www.thejournal.ie/together-for-yes-website-shut-down-4004400-May2018/

Outrageous. Shameful. Other things Robert would shout when he pretended the deck was stacked against No :rolleyes:

bruschi

RobertKK wrote: »

I would say given the medical expert has two lives to look after, the unborn needs the mother to be well so the mother gets primary care, he or she operate at a level where standards have to be extremely high as they work from a position where all life is valued under the 8th. We don't operate under a culture where unborn lives are seen as disposable as a choice.
A no vote removes the value from the unborn life as it will have no rights under Irish law as ruled by the Supreme Court, who said the 8th amendment is the only protection in Irish law for the unborn.
The standards of care in Ireland are world class under the 8th and it has not hindered standards of care, where medical people have followed learned practice.
I believe with the 8th amendment that the duty of care has been extremely high and has instilled a culture where all lives matter, not just some lives matter.
With the 8th amendment, women know their unborn has a value on his or her life. With a Yes vote, we will have certain wildlife whose unborn will have more protections and value in Irish law than the lives of unborn human lives.

thanks.

It doesn't quite answer though. I specifically asked how does the 8th offer women a better standard of care as has been claimed. your opinion is it doesnt hinder, I'm asking how is it improved. How will the womans care, and again, I'm specifically asking about the woman, will decrease if a yes vote goes through. How do the world class standards get worse, for the woman, if the 8th is repealed?

And again, how specifically has the 8th amendment made Ireland a safer country than others.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Sofiztikated

RobertKK wrote: »

.
With the 8th amendment, women know their unborn has a value on his or her life. With a Yes vote, we will have certain wildlife whose unborn will have more protections and value in Irish law than the lives of unborn human lives.

So women need to be told that their babies are important?

What about the amount of women that tell you that the 8th has an impact on their lives and their families lives?

B0jangles

RobertKK wrote: »

I would say given the medical expert has two lives to look after, the unborn needs the mother to be well so the mother gets primary care

She just needs to survive long enough for the baby to be delivered.

That's all - under the 8th it really doesn't matter if she's crippled or blinded or maimed in any other way by the pregnancy - if she's not actually dying she has no choice but to keep going with a pregnancy that could be destroying her body.

Women in Ireland deserve better than to be treated like disposable vessels.

RobertKK

smokingman wrote: »

Wildlife eh? ..and the mask slips once again..

What rubbish about mask slips.
It is fact.
Look at wildlife law.
Look at what the Supreme Court ruled which said the 8th amendment is the only protection that the unborn lives have in Irish law.

Overheal

Sofiztikated wrote: »

So women need to be told that their babies are important?

What about the amount of women that tell you that the 8th has an impact on their lives and their families lives?

But how would you recognize your ass from your elbow if there wasn’t a declaration for it in the Constitution of Ireland?

RobertKK

RobertKK wrote: »

A no vote removes the value from the unborn life as it will have no rights under Irish law as ruled by the Supreme Court, who said the 8th amendment is the only protection in Irish law for the unborn.
.

That is not true.
The super court ruled that the unborn has a right to life under the constitution. It has no other constitutional rights.

That does not mean it has no protection in law.

Overheal

RobertKK wrote: »

What rubbish about mask slips.
It is fact.
Look at wildlife law.
Look at what the Supreme Court ruled which said the 8th amendment is the only protection that the unborn lives have in Irish law.

There’s no wildlife Amendment in the constitution. False equivalency.

Sofiztikated

RobertKK wrote: »

What rubbish about mask slips.
It is fact.
Look at wildlife law.
Look at what the Supreme Court ruled which said the 8th amendment is the only protection that the unborn lives have in Irish law.

No, in The Irish Constitution.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but won't POLDPA still be in effect?

January

Which wildlife?

NuMarvel

RobertKK wrote: »

What rubbish about mask slips.
It is fact.
Look at wildlife law.
Look at what the Supreme Court ruled which said the 8th amendment is the only protection that the unborn lives have in Irish law.

They definitely didn't say that. The unborn has been protected in law since 1861, long before the 8th. And it will continue to have protections after repeal.

kylith

RobertKK wrote: »

It was also on Liveline yesterday I think it was and Joe played Rhona Mahony saying out of 100 women, 50 would then go for an abortion if the test showed Down Syndrome.

Are you in a position to know how those women would be able to cope with a disabled child? Are you in a position to know how severe the disability will be? Are you going to offer to take over primary care when the parents can no longer cope?