The "undocumented" Irish in America

Parkman77

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Irish, Mexicans, whoever they are they are illegals if they overstay esp when they know perfectly well that they are going to overstay.

Spot on. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

Keyzer

They should be fúcked out ASAP.

We have a remarkable talent for ignoring rules.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Reati wrote: »

No one is treating them as an underclass, they are calling a spade a spade.

The term undocumented Irish is a branding excerise for people who are illegally in America to make people sympathic to that cause.

We certainly don't and wouldn't refer to people here in ireland illegally as undocumented.

RTE probably would. In fact the BBC or RTE would never use illegal.

Mena Mitty

seachto7 wrote: »

Met a guy in Boston last year who was moaning about how he could never go home. He was engaged to a local too.
He had only arrived a year prior to that and was playing music.
So many other places he could have gone to to do this legally in Europe etc.
Zero sympathy for him. A large chip on his shoulder as well.

Playing music you say, he'll be home in a few years to build the mansion, with the elevated brick barbeque deck.

Fr Tod Umptious

Zebra3 wrote: »

Whereas Irish people elsewhere don’t?

I was referring specifically to the US

In Ireland if you take a second job or do a lot of overtime the point at where the economic return from the extra time worked diminishes arrives quickly, and at the other end of the scale there are many workers that pay little or no tax because the entry point of PAYE is quite high.

In general terms in the US it’s the opposite, you see a lot more “bang for your buck” when you work extra hours, the point at where the extra hours are not worth it is much higher, thus there is an economic incentive to work longer and harder.

Now obviously the tax systems are more complex than that, but at a general level in the US the more work you do the more reward you get for it.

Also in the US people seem more willing to pay on time, there is far less “invoice chasing” than here in Ireland

So if you are an Irish person working in the US for a long time the idea of coming back to Ireland with the above differences is not that appealing. In the US you get a Christmas bonus for a hard years work, in Ireland you get a Christmas bonus on the dole.

I don’t really have sympathy for illegals in the US, they knew what they were getting into when they decided to make the move but I disagree with the notion that as a result they should not have relationships or families and the idea that a move back to Ireland to live is a simple one.

Mena Mitty

Keyzer wrote: »

They should be fúcked out ASAP.

We have a remarkable talent for ignoring rules.

Is there no brown envelope system over there.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

wexie

Donald Trump wrote: »

What's the harm in regularizing their situation? Get them properly documented and monitored and give them a pathway to become part of the official system. And at the same time, improving the Immigration infrastructure so that it doesn't happen again in the future

Donald Trump wrote: »

Regularize their situation. Allow then to have some official, temporary status contingent on paying a fine and continued good behaviour etc. Give them something to work towards. It's a win-win. When you have a reasonable system in place it makes it easier and cleaner to get rid of actual chancers and messers

And would this apply only to 'undocumented Irish' or also 'undocumented Mexicans'?

suicide_circus

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

call a spade a spade

Don't think you're allowed do that nowadays

garbo speaks

"Undocumented"- RTE spin for "illegal immigrants". They each made a conscious choice to live in the US illegally, and I have no pity for them.

whisky_galore

Keyzer wrote: »

They should be fúcked out ASAP.

We have a remarkable talent for ignoring rules.

Ah shur I'll chance it...it'll be grand...shur my Uncle Ned lives here.

I suppose they think they can plámás cops or US immigration out of it.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Not a chance would I do it. I did a J1 there years back and knew guys around NY that couldn't come home for their own parents' funeral for fear that they wouldn't get back in.

In this day and age, I find it incredible that people are willing to go over and live there illegally, constantly looking over their shoulder. Different in the 80's when the fella who left Ireland was earning 3 or 4 times as much bartending or on the buildings as what he would in any normal job at home. Those days are long gone.

TheIrishGrover

I must admit, in this day and age, there is no call for these "undocumented" Irish there. Let's call them what they are: Illegal immigrants. I grew up in the bad old days of mass emigration where many people went to America to disappear. Simply because there was no other option for them. My brother was one such person.

However there have subsequently been MANY amnesties and programs over the years for these people to emerge and gain legal standing there (Again, my brother being one). Ireland has been treated a LOT fairer than any other country and we have taken advantage of it. Sure, many have raised families etc over there but these are the risks they knew they were taking. These were risks they chose to take.

Ireland is not the employment hell-hole it was in the 70's and 80's where this mass exodus would be expected, these are people who had options here but chose not to use them. Even the people who went over 20 years ago. 20 years ago was not this mythical black hole of unemployment. 20 years ago was 1998. The start of the Celtic tiger Companies were looking abroad to pull people into Ireland because they couldn't get enough people. There was no shortage of jobs then. I lost a job in 1998 and had another job before I was officially finished my previous job. By 1992 the job market was already growing and by '95 was very strong. So anyone who went over in the mid-late 90's chose to do so and instead of having no alternative.

Do I want these people to be kicked out? Of course not. But there have been ample opportunities for them to come out of the shadows and go legit and the have not. And who is to say they will if they had yet another chance? In the end, regardless of what they say, these people are in this situation by their own hand.

As others have said, what would be our own opinion on illegal immigrants? Especially ones coming from relatively affluent, non-war-torn countries? People who are not fleeing persecution or famine but are simply here because the jobs are better?

seachto7

Probably a discussion for another thread, but why should someone not be allowed to move to the USA or Canada etc and get a job?
Why should someone who is born 20 odd kms across the med in Morocco not be allowed to move to Tarifa in Spain and get a job if they wish, but someone from Donegal can?
Population control I suppose? A border is a man made line. I suppose it's the best and only thing we have.
I do believe in controlled immigration, as there are too many humans on the planet as it is.

Fr Tod Umptious

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

As I said, it's a puff piece, one RTE churn out once a year.

A better article would have been what the difference between living a in "sancurity city" and not.

Boston, and some cities bordering it are "scancurity cities". In these cities local law enforcement are not obliged to refer illegal immigrants they catch for things like speeding etc to ICE authorities.

Very devicive issue in the US right now.

Fr Tod Umptious

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

I must admit, in this day and age, there is no call for these "undocumented" Irish there. Let's call them what they are: Illegal immigrants. I grew up in the bad old days of mass emigration where many people went to America to disappear. Simply because there was no other option for them. My brother was one such person.
However there have subsequently been MANY amnesties and programs over the years for these people to emerge and gain legal standing there (Again, my brother being one). Ireland has been treated a LOT fairer than any mother country and we have taken advantage of it. Sure, many have raised families etc over there but these are the risks they knew they were taking. These were risks they chose to take.
Ireland is not the employment hell-hole it was in the 70's and 80's where this mass exodus would be expected, these are people who had options here but chose not to use them. Even the people who went over 20 years ago. 20 years ago was the start of the Celtic tiger, companies were looking abroad to pull people into Ireland because they couldn't get enough people. There was no shortage of jobs then.
Do I want these people to be kicked out? Of course not. But there have been ample opportunities for them to come out of the shadows and go legit and the have not. And who is to say they will if they had yet another chance?

Not since the early '90s there has not.
Donnelly and Morrison visas in the early '90s was the last opportunity if illegals to go legit.

Squatter

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Not since the early '90s there has not.
Donnelly and Morrison visas in the early '90s was the last opportunity for illegals to go legit.

In other words, anyone who opted to go down the 'undocumented' route over the past twenty-odd years could (or should) have had no realistic expectation of things changing.

Fr Tod Umptious

Squatter wrote: »

In other words, anyone who opted to go down the 'undocumented' route over the past twenty-odd years could (or should) have had no realistic expectation of things changing.

Correct, and to be honest I don't think many have that expectation.

Micky 32

I don't know about Boston, but i have very close ties to police from another state. If the police know the person was illegal they will not report him/her or bring them in, unless of course they are wanted for crimes etc.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

What’s your feeling about the wind rush generation in the U.K.?

Franz Von Peppercorn

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Correct, and to be honest I don't think many have that expectation.

It’s odd that some haven’t married Americans. Or even legal Irish. Assume that would regularise the situation.

TheIrishGrover

seachto7 wrote: »

Probably a discussion for another thread, but why should someone not be allowed to move to the USA or Canada etc and get a job?
Why should someone who is born 20 odd kms across the med in Morocco not be allowed to move to Tarifa in Spain and get a job if they wish, but someone from Donegal can?
Population control I suppose? A border is a man made line. I suppose it's the best and only thing we have.
I do believe in controlled immigration, as there are too many humans on the planet as it is.

Nothing. But they should follow procedure like everyone else.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

seachto7

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Nothing. But they should follow procedure like everyone else.

Why should there be a procedure in the first place? Why should someone from NZ have an easier procedure than someone from Glasgow for Aus?

Playing devil's advocate here....

TheIrishGrover

seachto7 wrote: »

Why should there be a procedure in the first place? Why should someone from NZ have an easier procedure than someone from Glasgow for Aus?

Playing devil's advocate here....

Oh, I misinterpreted your question. I thought you meant in general why can't people move to USA or Canada (Or anywhere). They should as long as they follow the correct procedures. Some countries have different arrangements with others either due to proximity, historic connections (Once a colony?) or for votes (The US/Ireland). It should be up to each country to be able to manage/regulate immigration but why should someone who has dodged the system be treated the same as someone who has gone to the time, effort, stress and expense of following correct procedure?

Look how legitimate immigrants are tarred with the same brush as illegals - even if they are totally unrelated. Ask any Romanian how they feel about Roma gypsies being in Ireland. In my previous job I worked with a few Romanians (Around about the time of the peak Roma presence here) and they were disgusted with their presence here and wanted rid of them. Not only because they (my co-workers) had gone through the correct channels to be here and the Roma hadn't but mainly because everyone tarred them with the same brush.

I've been to the US with work many times and have had a conversation or two with locals about the "undocumented" Irish. They were not too happy. We think that the world loves the funny, happy Paddy. Always good for a laugh and cliche..... But we're not as loved as you think (Ask an Australian what they think about Irish people working there)

Graces7

suicide_circus wrote: »

Don't think you're allowed do that nowadays

Reminds me of the ad for a modern estate agent.. "We call a spade a spade, not a long handled digging implement."
( Green Valley Properties)

Squatter

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It’s odd that some haven’t married Americans. Or even legal Irish.
Assume that would regularise the situation.

Following up on that, can anyone confirm whether an 'illegal' marrying a US citizen would regularise their situation or would they need to leave the States and apply for citizenship from overseas?

hatrickpatrick

Donald Trump wrote: »

What's the harm in regularizing their situation?

Those who oppose immigration would generally give you a nativist argument about limited resources and the idea that if there are more people eating the pie, everyone gets a smaller slice. IMO, they're perfectly entitled to that view and it in no way makes them racist or xenophobic to think in this way. The issue really comes down to whether or not it's actually true that resources are scarce enough to make such nativism logically necessary, and unfortunately it's pretty much impossible to find sources on this which aren't biased towards one side or another.

jimgoose

I don't give two fucks about the undocumented Irish in America and don't care who knows it.

hatrickpatrick

Donald Trump wrote: »

I don't think they want your sympathy.

What is there to gain by treating them like an underclass?

Regularize their situation. Allow then to have some official, temporary status contingent on paying a fine and continued good behaviour etc. Give them something to work towards. It's a win-win. When you have a reasonable system in place it makes it easier and cleaner to get rid of actual chancers and messers

I don't mean to be a conspiracy theorist, but going by your comments on this I'm develping a sneaking suspicion that you're not actually Donald Trump at all, but some kind of cunning imposter.