The "undocumented" Irish in America

McGrath5

So RTE have run a heart warming piece on the so called undocumented Irish who have to spend their lives looking over their shoulder in case of been deported back to Ireland.

RTE's Brian O' Donovan made the arduous trek to Boston to go speak with these poor folk who didn't want to reveal their identify, for fear of deportation.
From driving around in fear of been pulled over by the police to going underground when the immigration and customs enforcement agency are in the area, these people live a life of fear.

I'm sorry, but am I missing something here? These illegal immigrants have chosen to overstay their welcome in a foreign country, yet go on as if they are a persecuted minority. I think if these people came from south of the border ie Mexico they would be called for what in fact they are, illegal immigrants.

Somehow though, if they where all to come back home, they would probably have an incredible sense of entitlement, expecting a free house and much more.

Poor form from RTE though reporting on this issue in such a biased manner.

Discuss.

hatrickpatrick

I'm pro-immigration and this still grinds my gears. People should be campaigning to change the law, not resorting to "newspeak" to try to pretend that the law doesn't exist and hope that it just goes away on its own. It's ridiculous.

The analogy about drug dealers calling themselves "unlicensed pharmacists" is apt - call a spade a spade, if you believe in more open borders then say "These peoples' immigration was illegal, but it shouldn't be". This whole trend of "change the label on something to pretend that it's something other than it is" is bizarre and in my view just a little too close to some of Orwell's ideas about controlling language for my liking.

The Old Guy

Just RTE being RTE. Not along ago they had a propaganda piece on the news about poor 'migrants' trying to cross the southern border.

Harry Palmr

Irish, Mexicans, whoever they are they are illegals if they overstay esp when they know perfectly well that they are going to overstay.

whisky_galore

Cry me a river.

The Irish originate from a rich country compared to Mexico and the world is their oyster. They could work within the EU if they were arsed learning a language which most won't do...only heading off to the bright lights and gold paved streets of Americay. They knew the rules and they decided to chance it. Tough titty if they happen to get nabbed.

Fr Tod Umptious

McGrath5 wrote: »

So RTE have run a heart warming piece on the so called undocumented Irish who have to spend their lives looking over their shoulder in case of been deported back to Ireland.

RTE's Brian O' Donovan made the arduous trek to Boston to go speak with these poor folk who didn't want to reveal their identify, for fear of deportation.
From driving around in fear of been pulled over by the police to going underground when the immigration and customs enforcement agency are in the area, these people live a life of fear.

I'm sorry, but am I missing something here? These illegal immigrants have chosen to overstay their welcome in a foreign country, yet go on as if they are a persecuted minority. I think if these people came from south of the border ie Mexico they would be called for what in fact they are, illegal immigrants.

Somehow though, if they where all to come back home, they would probably have an incredible sense of entitlement, expecting a free house and much more.

Poor form from RTE though reporting on this issue in such a biased manner.

Discuss.

It's a puff piece by RTE.

Just a filler.

I doubt the reporter even travelled to Dorchester to meet two lads, he could have written from his kitchen.

I disagree with the bit in bold though, most Irish people who go to work in the US for a long period of time learn the value of working, the folks who expect a free house etc usually stay in Ireland.

Graces7

McGrath5 wrote: »

So RTE have run a heart warming piece on the so called undocumented Irish who have to spend their lives looking over their shoulder in case of been deported back to Ireland.
RTE's Brian O' Donovan made the arduous trek to Boston to go speak with these poor folk who didn't want to reveal their identify, for fear of deportation.
From driving around in fear of been pulled over by the police to going underground when the immigration and customs enforcement agency are in the area, these people live a life of fear.
I'm sorry, but am I missing something here? These illegal immigrants have chosen to overstay their welcome in a foreign country, yet go on as if they are a persecuted minority. I think if these people came from south of the border ie Mexico they would be called for what in fact they are, illegal immigrants.

Somehow though, if they where all to come back home, they would probably have an incredible sense of entitlement, expecting a free house and much more.

Poor form from RTE though reporting on this issue in such a biased manner.

Discuss.

Not at all poor form. Truth matters. Whoever you are, or, rather, wherever you
come from. Shameful way to behave.

what free house?

Donald Trump

We like them now. Your leader Leo came over to give me a bowl of weeds for St. Patty's Day

It's not as if they are filthy Mexicans now is it?

Donald Trump

McGrath5 wrote: »

Discuss.

Feck off

MattressRick

No sympathy for them. Up sticks, family and all, if you miss home so much.

Donald Trump

MattressRick wrote: »

No sympathy for them. Up sticks, family and all, if you miss home so much.

It's not that easy.

Some might be married or in relationships or have kids in USA.

But they can't take the risk of stepping outside the US. Some might be there 20 years, keeping their heads down, working and paying their taxes.

What's the harm in regularizing their situation? Get them properly documented and monitored and give them a pathway to become part of the official system. And at the same time, improving the Immigration infrastructure so that it doesn't happen again in the future


There is feck all for free in the USA in terms of welfare supports. Yeah, your kids will go to a school for free but beyond that there's feck all. It's likely that the Irish undocumented aren't on food stamps or looking to avail of free housing/shelter

farmerwifelet

but getting into a relationship and having children while being an illegal immigrant is the most selfish thing you can do. it is a deliberate choice.

There are a lot of Irish over there who went through the channels and got their citizenship the right way. It can be done so I don't have any sympathy and being stuck there because you might not get back is also a choice.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

farmerwifelet wrote: »

but getting into a relationship and having children while being an illegal immigrant is the most selfish thing you can do. it is a deliberate choice.

There are a lot of Irish over there who went through the channels and got their citizenship the right way. It can be done so I don't have any sympathy and being stuck there because you might not get back is also a choice.

Absolutely. I have several family members who went to the USA and went through the correct channels. These 'undocumented' had ample opportunities to do it properly.

Zebra3

No sympathy for them.

You’d think RTÉ would have better things to be reporting on.

Franz Von Peppercorn

I’m happy enough with the term illegal rather than undocumented. some of the rhetoric here is wrong though. They didn’t leave a rich country but a basket case country 20 years ago. They hardly are the type to want a free house.

Like the wind rush generation deporting people who have been anywhere for a generation is a bit off.

kwestfan08

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I’m happy enough with the term illegal rather than undocumented. some of the rhetoric here is wrong though. They didn’t leave a rich country but a basket case country 20 years ago. They hardly are the type to want a free house.

Like the wind rush generation deporting people who have been anywhere for a generation is a bit off.

Basket case in 1998? Hardly.

Franz Von Peppercorn

kwestfan08 wrote: »

Basket case in 1998? Hardly.

Well most immigrated from the 80s and early 90s. 20+ I should have said.

Mrs OBumble

sugarman wrote: »

In its present form, the nation isn't even 250 years old. That could be the equivalent of just 3 generations of family.

I'd imagine a few Native Americans would see the nation's age a bit differently.

And 250 years = three generations? The way Irish breed? Yeah, right ... more like 10+ generations.


Damn overstayers. Bring back dawn raids.

Mutant z

That should be the illegal Irish in America let's get the terminology right why don't we.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'd imagine a few Native Americans would see the nation's age a bit differently.

And 250 years = three generations? The way Irish breed? Yeah, right ... more like 10+ generations.


Damn overstayers. Bring back dawn raids.

The way “Irish breed”. Jesus wept.

Fr Tod Umptious

Randall Deafening Whimper wrote: »

Absolutely. I have several family members who went to the USA and went through the correct channels. These 'undocumented' had ample opportunities to do it properly.

The last "amnesty" was the Donnelly and Morrison visas in the early '90s.
They were like the current DV lottery visas but basically if you applied you were likely to get one.

That got a lot of the people who went over illegally in the 80s sorted.

Since then the only way to get a visa to the US has been DV lotttery (very hard to win) or H1B work permit (University degree and work specialisation required, and it's a lottery also)
Marry a US citizen.

So since the mid 90s the opportunities for legal immigration to the US has been pretty much out of the reach of a huge amount of Irish people.

Yet people, espically young single people, like to go over and give it a go.

These people grow up, become couples and have famalies. As I said in an earlier post Irish people who work in the US discovery the value of work and the reward of work.

As time goes by Ireland as a place to live becomes less attractive with it's (relatively) high taxes which seem to pay for an vast welfare state which some people spend their whole lives on.

So coming back to Ireland is not as simple as it seems.

Zebra3

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

As I said in an earlier post Irish people who work in the US discovery the value of work and the reward of work.

Whereas Irish people elsewhere don’t?

AllForIt

The Undocumentables

DEFTLEFTHAND

Should be held to the same standard as everyone else.

There's no sympathy for them back here.

MattressRick

Donald Trump wrote: »

It's not that easy.

Some might be married or in relationships or have kids in USA.

But they can't take the risk of stepping outside the US. Some might be there 20 years, keeping their heads down, working and paying their taxes.

What's the harm in regularizing their situation? Get them properly documented and monitored and give them a pathway to become part of the official system. And at the same time, improving the Immigration infrastructure so that it doesn't happen again in the future


There is feck all for free in the USA in terms of welfare supports. Yeah, your kids will go to a school for free but beyond that there's feck all. It's likely that the Irish undocumented aren't on food stamps or looking to avail of free housing/shelter

Im well aware of why they cant leave and travel home for a holiday. But they made a decision to start families, presumably with the attitude that they'd get sorted eventually with a visa. So I've no sympathy.

Donald Trump

MattressRick wrote: »

Im well aware of why they cant leave and travel home for a holiday. But they made a decision to start families, presumably with the attitude that they'd get sorted eventually with a visa. So I've no sympathy.

I don't think they want your sympathy.

What is there to gain by treating them like an underclass?

Regularize their situation. Allow then to have some official, temporary status contingent on paying a fine and continued good behaviour etc. Give them something to work towards. It's a win-win. When you have a reasonable system in place it makes it easier and cleaner to get rid of actual chancers and messers

Reati

Donald Trump wrote: »

.

What is there to gain by treating them like an underclass?

No one is treating them as an underclass, they are calling a spade a spade.

The term undocumented Irish is a branding excerise for people who are illegally in America to make people sympathic to that cause.

We certainly don't and wouldn't refer to people here in ireland illegally as undocumented.

malinheader

Fair play to anyone who made the move to the states as for a lot of them it was down to no work available here and our government was only to glad to see them leave. Hard to leave your family behind not knowing when or if you be back. Also anyone heading there was heading to work not to avail of a soft welfare system as there was none.

Reati

malinheader wrote: »

Fair play to anyone who made the move to the states as for a lot of them it was down to no work available here and our government was only to glad to see them leave. Hard to leave your family behind not knowing when or if you be back. Also anyone heading there was heading to work not to avail of a soft welfare system as there was none.

Do you feel the same about Syrians and others from the middle east coming here and to Europe for the same reason?

seachto7

Met a guy in Boston last year who was moaning about how he could never go home. He was engaged to a local too.
He had only arrived a year prior to that and was playing music.
So many other places he could have gone to to do this legally in Europe etc.
Zero sympathy for him. A large chip on his shoulder as well.

Manic Moran

sugarman wrote: »

The states is a funny one tho, the place was literally built by immigrants. In its present form, the nation isn't even 250 years old. That could be the equivalent of just 3 generations of family.

It was, indeed, built by immigrants, but what was in previous centuries is no longer. Back then, we had a heck of a lot of land, and nobody to exploit it. Not enough farmers, not enough railroad workers, not enough... well.., anything. What the US needed was raw manpower, which it would take from most anywhere. If you were generally healthy, we’d take you.

Today, though, the US’s situation is similar to that of most other developed countries. It has some certain critical skills shortages, possession of such skills means it to be more likely that a visa will be granted. In terms of population and raw manpower, though, the open immigration of the past is no longer a suitable policy. Why people think the US should exempt itself from common policy on such matters is beyond me.

Parkman77

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Irish, Mexicans, whoever they are they are illegals if they overstay esp when they know perfectly well that they are going to overstay.

Spot on. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

Keyzer

They should be fúcked out ASAP.

We have a remarkable talent for ignoring rules.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Reati wrote: »

No one is treating them as an underclass, they are calling a spade a spade.

The term undocumented Irish is a branding excerise for people who are illegally in America to make people sympathic to that cause.

We certainly don't and wouldn't refer to people here in ireland illegally as undocumented.

RTE probably would. In fact the BBC or RTE would never use illegal.

Mena Mitty

seachto7 wrote: »

Met a guy in Boston last year who was moaning about how he could never go home. He was engaged to a local too.
He had only arrived a year prior to that and was playing music.
So many other places he could have gone to to do this legally in Europe etc.
Zero sympathy for him. A large chip on his shoulder as well.

Playing music you say, he'll be home in a few years to build the mansion, with the elevated brick barbeque deck.

Fr Tod Umptious

Zebra3 wrote: »

Whereas Irish people elsewhere don’t?

I was referring specifically to the US

In Ireland if you take a second job or do a lot of overtime the point at where the economic return from the extra time worked diminishes arrives quickly, and at the other end of the scale there are many workers that pay little or no tax because the entry point of PAYE is quite high.

In general terms in the US it’s the opposite, you see a lot more “bang for your buck” when you work extra hours, the point at where the extra hours are not worth it is much higher, thus there is an economic incentive to work longer and harder.

Now obviously the tax systems are more complex than that, but at a general level in the US the more work you do the more reward you get for it.

Also in the US people seem more willing to pay on time, there is far less “invoice chasing” than here in Ireland

So if you are an Irish person working in the US for a long time the idea of coming back to Ireland with the above differences is not that appealing. In the US you get a Christmas bonus for a hard years work, in Ireland you get a Christmas bonus on the dole.

I don’t really have sympathy for illegals in the US, they knew what they were getting into when they decided to make the move but I disagree with the notion that as a result they should not have relationships or families and the idea that a move back to Ireland to live is a simple one.

Mena Mitty

Keyzer wrote: »

They should be fúcked out ASAP.

We have a remarkable talent for ignoring rules.

Is there no brown envelope system over there.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

wexie

Donald Trump wrote: »

What's the harm in regularizing their situation? Get them properly documented and monitored and give them a pathway to become part of the official system. And at the same time, improving the Immigration infrastructure so that it doesn't happen again in the future

Donald Trump wrote: »

Regularize their situation. Allow then to have some official, temporary status contingent on paying a fine and continued good behaviour etc. Give them something to work towards. It's a win-win. When you have a reasonable system in place it makes it easier and cleaner to get rid of actual chancers and messers

And would this apply only to 'undocumented Irish' or also 'undocumented Mexicans'?

suicide_circus

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

call a spade a spade

Don't think you're allowed do that nowadays

garbo speaks

"Undocumented"- RTE spin for "illegal immigrants". They each made a conscious choice to live in the US illegally, and I have no pity for them.

whisky_galore

Keyzer wrote: »

They should be fúcked out ASAP.

We have a remarkable talent for ignoring rules.

Ah shur I'll chance it...it'll be grand...shur my Uncle Ned lives here.

I suppose they think they can plámás cops or US immigration out of it.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Not a chance would I do it. I did a J1 there years back and knew guys around NY that couldn't come home for their own parents' funeral for fear that they wouldn't get back in.

In this day and age, I find it incredible that people are willing to go over and live there illegally, constantly looking over their shoulder. Different in the 80's when the fella who left Ireland was earning 3 or 4 times as much bartending or on the buildings as what he would in any normal job at home. Those days are long gone.

TheIrishGrover

I must admit, in this day and age, there is no call for these "undocumented" Irish there. Let's call them what they are: Illegal immigrants. I grew up in the bad old days of mass emigration where many people went to America to disappear. Simply because there was no other option for them. My brother was one such person.

However there have subsequently been MANY amnesties and programs over the years for these people to emerge and gain legal standing there (Again, my brother being one). Ireland has been treated a LOT fairer than any other country and we have taken advantage of it. Sure, many have raised families etc over there but these are the risks they knew they were taking. These were risks they chose to take.

Ireland is not the employment hell-hole it was in the 70's and 80's where this mass exodus would be expected, these are people who had options here but chose not to use them. Even the people who went over 20 years ago. 20 years ago was not this mythical black hole of unemployment. 20 years ago was 1998. The start of the Celtic tiger Companies were looking abroad to pull people into Ireland because they couldn't get enough people. There was no shortage of jobs then. I lost a job in 1998 and had another job before I was officially finished my previous job. By 1992 the job market was already growing and by '95 was very strong. So anyone who went over in the mid-late 90's chose to do so and instead of having no alternative.

Do I want these people to be kicked out? Of course not. But there have been ample opportunities for them to come out of the shadows and go legit and the have not. And who is to say they will if they had yet another chance? In the end, regardless of what they say, these people are in this situation by their own hand.

As others have said, what would be our own opinion on illegal immigrants? Especially ones coming from relatively affluent, non-war-torn countries? People who are not fleeing persecution or famine but are simply here because the jobs are better?

seachto7

Probably a discussion for another thread, but why should someone not be allowed to move to the USA or Canada etc and get a job?
Why should someone who is born 20 odd kms across the med in Morocco not be allowed to move to Tarifa in Spain and get a job if they wish, but someone from Donegal can?
Population control I suppose? A border is a man made line. I suppose it's the best and only thing we have.
I do believe in controlled immigration, as there are too many humans on the planet as it is.

Fr Tod Umptious

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

As I said, it's a puff piece, one RTE churn out once a year.

A better article would have been what the difference between living a in "sancurity city" and not.

Boston, and some cities bordering it are "scancurity cities". In these cities local law enforcement are not obliged to refer illegal immigrants they catch for things like speeding etc to ICE authorities.

Very devicive issue in the US right now.

Fr Tod Umptious

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

I must admit, in this day and age, there is no call for these "undocumented" Irish there. Let's call them what they are: Illegal immigrants. I grew up in the bad old days of mass emigration where many people went to America to disappear. Simply because there was no other option for them. My brother was one such person.
However there have subsequently been MANY amnesties and programs over the years for these people to emerge and gain legal standing there (Again, my brother being one). Ireland has been treated a LOT fairer than any mother country and we have taken advantage of it. Sure, many have raised families etc over there but these are the risks they knew they were taking. These were risks they chose to take.
Ireland is not the employment hell-hole it was in the 70's and 80's where this mass exodus would be expected, these are people who had options here but chose not to use them. Even the people who went over 20 years ago. 20 years ago was the start of the Celtic tiger, companies were looking abroad to pull people into Ireland because they couldn't get enough people. There was no shortage of jobs then.
Do I want these people to be kicked out? Of course not. But there have been ample opportunities for them to come out of the shadows and go legit and the have not. And who is to say they will if they had yet another chance?

Not since the early '90s there has not.
Donnelly and Morrison visas in the early '90s was the last opportunity if illegals to go legit.

Squatter

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Not since the early '90s there has not.
Donnelly and Morrison visas in the early '90s was the last opportunity for illegals to go legit.

In other words, anyone who opted to go down the 'undocumented' route over the past twenty-odd years could (or should) have had no realistic expectation of things changing.

Fr Tod Umptious

Squatter wrote: »

In other words, anyone who opted to go down the 'undocumented' route over the past twenty-odd years could (or should) have had no realistic expectation of things changing.

Correct, and to be honest I don't think many have that expectation.

Micky 32

I don't know about Boston, but i have very close ties to police from another state. If the police know the person was illegal they will not report him/her or bring them in, unless of course they are wanted for crimes etc.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

What’s your feeling about the wind rush generation in the U.K.?