Alot of tax increase talk...

veryangryman

Heard word of potential increases in income tax and property tax in the budget.
Whatever about the merits of this, Isn't this political suicide for a minority government? Call me a simpleton but I consider my tax as money wasted by others.
I vote for whoever lets me waste this money myself.  The 50% marginal tax rate is still woefully high for the average worker.I do realise that these things are mainly done by civil servants who can't be voted out.  Still this brings me right back spooning with MM.

With a €20bn surplus in tax intake, it’ll probably be a giveaway budget. Any increases in LPT or other taxes will be kicked down the road.

road_high

veryangryman wrote: »

Heard word of potential increases in income tax and property tax in the budget.
Whatever about the merits of this, Isn't this political suicide for a minority government? Call me a simpleton but I consider my tax as money wasted by others.
I vote for whoever lets me waste this money myself.  The 50% marginal tax rate is still woefully high for the average worker.I do realise that these things are mainly done by civil servants who can't be voted out.  Still this brings me right back spooning with MM.

They were making big play of rewarding work etc (but haven't really done so) at all. Seems to be huge pressure for more public spending from all the usual moaners- they shout loudest as they have the time and agenda to do so. Working people don't really register.
So increased taxes wouldn't surprise one iota- though it'll be more along the lines of increased taxes on diesel, road tax, increased property taxes and whatever else stealth wise they can cook up.

OneEightSeven

I read in the Irish Examiner today that they're increasing property tax in 2020, thus punishing us urban-dwellers who are subsidising our 40% rural population seeing our homes are more valuable. They should be cutting off subsidies to rural dwellers, they're the ones sucking the life out of this country with their heavily-subsidised lifestyles.

OneEightSeven

OneEightSeven wrote: »

I read in the Irish Examiner today that they're increasing property tax in 2020, thus punishing us urban-dwellers who are subsidising our 40% rural population seeing our homes are more valuable. They should be cutting off subsidies to rural dwellers, they're the ones sucking the life out of this country with their heavily-subsidised lifestyles.

Poppycock. Rural dwellers have expenses that city/town dwellers don’t.

What I’d like to see is EVERYONE paying LPT, not just home owners. Renters have the same benefit.

McMurphy

Deleted User wrote: »

Poppycock. Rural dwellers have expenses that city/town dwellers don’t.

What I’d like to see is EVERYONE paying LPT, not just home owners. Renters have the same benefit.

Well if property tax is a "tax on an asset", ie the family home, and the renter doesn't own the house, how could he be expected to pay the tax on his landlords asset?

You might be arguing for something like domestic rates, but the govt don't seem to be in any hurry to consider that option.

Idbatterim

The rates won’t change, but as property values are increasing, the amount paid in will increase. Increasing income tax now? LOL. Short answer is no to that!

The increased pot from property taxes should go to reducing the scandalous marginal rate ...

FreudianSlippers

Deleted User wrote: »

With a €20bn surplus in tax intake, it’ll probably be a giveaway budget. Any increases in LPT or other taxes will be kicked down the road.

I'm not so sure - I think it'll be a copypasta of the last budget; another small amount of USC cuts, slight band amendments but other than that no big changes.

IMHO we should have taken the opportunity in the past few years to totally have a complete re-think of our entire tax system.

FreudianSlippers

Idbatterim wrote: »

The rates won’t change, but as property values are increasing, the amount paid in will increase. Increasing income tax now? LOL. Short answer is no to that!

The increased pot from property taxes should go to reducing the scandalous marginal rate ...

Like I also wouldn't mind if they fixed the massive potholes around the place in Dublin tbh. I do normally a couple months here then a few in the US and (I understand there was a lot of snow earlier this year) but the roads seem WAY worse than they were a few months ago.

Idbatterim

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm not so sure - I think it'll be a copypasta of the last budget; another small amount of USC cuts, slight band amendments but other than that no big changes.

IMHO we should have taken the opportunity in the past few years to totally have a complete re-think of our entire tax system.

Not a chance. It would have involved getting hundreds of thousands who pay viRitually nothing into the system , to start contributing a fair share!

lawred2

veryangryman wrote: »

Heard word of potential increases in income tax and property tax in the budget.
Whatever about the merits of this, Isn't this political suicide for a minority government? Call me a simpleton but I consider my tax as money wasted by others.
I vote for whoever lets me waste this money myself.  The 50% marginal tax rate is still woefully high for the average worker.I do realise that these things are mainly done by civil servants who can't be voted out.  Still this brings me right back spooning with MM.

?

income tax is already well out of line here in Ireland

lawred2

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm not so sure - I think it'll be a copypasta of the last budget; another small amount of USC cuts, slight band amendments but other than that no big changes.

IMHO we should have taken the opportunity in the past few years to totally have a complete re-think of our entire tax system.

ah now - that's crazy talk. The current system works brilliantly for those that couldn't be arsed.

seamus

We still have room to rethink our tax system. The main issue is that people on the whole are selfish. Any government which makes sudden changes that are of long-term social and national benefit but may take money out of the individual's pocket, are pretty much guaranteed to be savaged at the ballot box. And then the change gets reversed later on, so why bother your hole doing it?

Piecemeal changes are really the only way to go. Boil the frog; broaden the tax base slowly enough that people don't really notice it happening and so that future governments can't just wipe out your reforms with the stroke of a pen.

The mistake FF made in successive budgets in the 00s was giving money away because it was there. Doing the same again is setting us up for another large crash in the next five years, so the very minimum they should do is leave taxation as it is and pump excess money into social programmes, public sector reform and infrastructure.
Really they should also reform taxation to make it broader and simpler. If there's a surplus, now is the time to talk about abolishing USC, and introduce broader taxes elsewhere.

lawred2

seamus wrote: »

We still have room to rethink our tax system. The main issue is that people on the whole are selfish. Any government which makes sudden changes that are of long-term social and national benefit but may take money out of the individual's pocket, are pretty much guaranteed to be savaged at the ballot box. And then the change gets reversed later on, so why bother your hole doing it?

Piecemeal changes are really the only way to go. Boil the frog; broaden the tax base slowly enough that people don't really notice it happening and so that future governments can't just wipe out your reforms with the stroke of a pen.

The mistake FF made in successive budgets in the 00s was giving money away because it was there. Doing the same again is setting us up for another large crash in the next five years, so the very minimum they should do is leave taxation as it is and pump excess money into social programmes, public sector reform and infrastructure.
Really they should also reform taxation to make it broader and simpler. If there's a surplus, now is the time to talk about abolishing USC, and introduce broader taxes elsewhere.

that's not what's happening though... Especially not with income tax anyway.

the one solitary mechanism (USC) through which all were asked to contribute has been undercut repeatedly over the last few years while remaining top heavy..

usual story - the income tax burden is way too top heavy and there seems to be no real attitude to change it - despite all the platitudes to the contrary.

And then factor in penal CGT on rather minuscule gains.

I'm not sure what frog is being boiled really

pump excess money into social programmes, public sector reform

those are sure fire ways to make money disappear very quickly

Idbatterim

Let them scrap usc. No welfare increases for years. Sure aren’t we nearly at “full employment”? During the boom it was all sent up in smoke. This time round, it should be spent on infrastructure, state housing for low to mid income workers, debt repayment and usc abolition in my opinion. Not that I in way agree with abolishing usc. But from a political perspective, there is no way they could only cut the marginal rate. Which is what I would be doing ...

Idbatterim

“usual story - the income tax burden is way too top heavy and their seems to be no real attitude to change it - despite all the platitudes to the contrary.”

It’s a total disgrace. But they probably make up a single or low double digit percentage of the electorate. So they are hammered!

lawred2

Idbatterim wrote: »

Let them scrap usc. No welfare increases for years. Sure aren’t we nearly at “full employment”? During the boom it was all sent up in smoke. This time round, it should be spent on infrastructure, state housing for low to mid income workers, debt repayment and usc abolition in my opinion. Not that I in way agree with abolishing usc. But from a political perspective, there is no way they could only cut the marginal rate. Which is what I would be doing ...

extend USC to all

and cut the top rate of PAYE is what should happen

USC feeds into the marginal rate

Idbatterim

lawred2 wrote: »

extend USC to all

and cut the top rate of PAYE is what should happen

USC feeds into the marginal rate

I agree. There is what I would do and then what might actually be politically doable. Like Seamus says... one way I’d be extracting more is from the lpt...

Idbatterim

Vote for renua if you’re sick of the income tax situation in this country and the income tax!

FreudianSlippers

Idbatterim wrote: »

Vote for renua if you’re sick of the income tax situation in this country and the income tax!

I can't deal with their social views unfortunately.

lawred2

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I can't deal with their social views unfortunately.

same

Idbatterim

Their social views are an irrelevance. They are at odds with nearly every other party. They would never influemce anything here on the social front! They are hardly going to get in as a majority government! The abortion issue could be put to bed permanently, pretty soon!

I find it funny that here we aretalkimgvsnloyt being bent over financially , yet people won’t vote for them out of some moral compass! Well the other voters don’t think like you lads, so don’t be surprised at the abuse, when you don’t vote to represent your own interests at the balllot box!

lawred2

Idbatterim wrote: »

Their social views are an irrelevance. They are at odds with nearly every other party. They would never influemce anything here on the social front! They are hardly going to get in as a majority government! The abortion issue could be put to bed permanently, pretty soon!

I find it funny that here we aretalkimgvsnloyt being bent over financially , yet people won’t vote for them out of some moral compass! Well the other voters don’t think like you lads, so don’t be surprised at the abuse, when you don’t vote to represent your own interests at the balllot box!

they have zero momentum, no Dail seats and 2 elected councilors

apparently they will have at best about 15 - 20 or so available candidates by the time the next election comes around

Renua as a brand is toxic

Talk about a dead duck

Idbatterim

lawred2 wrote: »

they have zero momentum, no Dail seats and 2 elected councilors

apparently they will have at best about 15 - 20 or so available candidates by the time the next election comes around

Renua as a brand is toxic

Talk about a dead duck

They now have two hundred k in funding every year, that they didn’t have before previous election. Fg have now abandoned the taxpayer. They will win seats this time round. The issue for them I see is their social views and the fact they aren’t getting their message out there to the masses or are building a nestegg to do it at election time ... everything most oriole call for on this forum, is their policy!

TheBoyConor

OneEightSeven wrote: »

I read in the Irish Examiner today that they're increasing property tax in 2020, thus punishing us urban-dwellers who are subsidising our 40% rural population seeing our homes are more valuable. They should be cutting off subsidies to rural dwellers, they're the ones sucking the life out of this country with their heavily-subsidised lifestyles.

Typical Pale Jackeen attitude.

You should come live in an isolated rural area where your nearest neighbour is an elderly bachelor farmer 3 miles away and down a botharín and you'll see how much of a cushy and luxury life we are leading.
It's attitudes like yours, denigrating rural ireland is what is sucking the life out of rural communities.

LuckyLloyd

I'd be in favour of income tax increases and use of the current period of a strong economy (and historically low interest rates) to invest heavily in infrastructure, really get the ball rolling on the Ireland 2035 stuff.

blanch152

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Typical Pale Jackeen attitude.

You should come live in an isolated rural area where your nearest neighbour is an elderly bachelor farmer 3 miles away and down a botharín and you'll see how much of a cushy and luxury life we are leading.
It's attitudes like yours, denigrating rural ireland is what is sucking the life out of rural communities.

Not at all, it is the attitude of your neighbours and friends, and their sons and daughters, who are moving to Dublin who are sucking the life out of rural communities. They are voting with their feet.

johnnyskeleton

road_high wrote: »

They were making big play of rewarding work etc (but haven't really done so) at all. Seems to be huge pressure for more public spending from all the usual moaners- they shout loudest as they have the time and agenda to do so. Working people don't really register.
So increased taxes wouldn't surprise one iota- though it'll be more along the lines of increased taxes on diesel, road tax, increased property taxes and whatever else stealth wise they can cook up.

Personally, I'd be happy with tax increases if they froze spending at the level that it is at and then used the money from the extra taxes to:

A. Balance our budget so that we aren't continually using deficit spending;
B. Start to reduce our worringly high level of national debt; and/or
C. Used the money to pay for infrastructural problems.

I suppose it's a question of the overton window i.e. the perceived parameters of what is politically acceptable. The debate at the moment is between more spending or less tax to get to a 3% deficit, when in reality it should be less spending, more tax to try to fix the sorry state of the Irish exchequer.

However, there are no votes in doing what is right for the country, only in what puts more money in people's pockets.

Franz Von Peppercorn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Poppycock. Rural dwellers have expenses that city/town dwellers don’t.

What I’d like to see is EVERYONE paying LPT, not just home owners. Renters have the same benefit.

It’s a property tax not a residence tax.

Wanderer78

johnnyskeleton wrote:

A. Balance our budget so that we aren't continually using deficit spending; B. Start to reduce our worringly high level of national debt; and/or C. Used the money to pay for infrastructural problems.

If you think are public debt is high, you should look at our private debts

Franz Von Peppercorn

Idbatterim wrote: »

They now have two hundred k in funding every year, that they didn’t have before previous election. Fg have now abandoned the taxpayer. They will win seats this time round. The issue for them I see is their social views and the fact they aren’t getting their message out there to the masses or are building a nestegg to do it at election time ... everything most oriole call for on this forum, is their policy!

A renua conference could be held in a rural pub snug. Going nowhere.

A full libertarian party (socially and economically) might do better but probably not much better.

Franz Von Peppercorn

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Personally, I'd be happy with tax increases if they froze spending at the level that it is at and then used the money from the extra taxes to:

A. Balance our budget so that we aren't continually using deficit spending;
B. Start to reduce our worringly high level of national debt; and/or
C. Used the money to pay for infrastructural problems.

I suppose it's a question of the overton window i.e. the perceived parameters of what is politically acceptable. The debate at the moment is between more spending or less tax to get to a 3% deficit, when in reality it should be less spending, more tax to try to fix the sorry state of the Irish exchequer.

However, there are no votes in doing what is right for the country, only in what puts more money in people's pockets.

Balancing the budget isn’t really that important for states. What matters is if the state can continue to grow economically and continue to pay back the debts

jimmycrackcorm

The only hope I can see for reading the burden on the taxpayer is if FG can make any traction on the housing and health issues. These are dominating political demands and doom any attempts to reduce the penalising of hard work.

GG66

OneEightSeven wrote: »

I read in the Irish Examiner today that they're increasing property tax in 2020, thus punishing us urban-dwellers who are subsidising our 40% rural population seeing our homes are more valuable. They should be cutting off subsidies to rural dwellers, they're the ones sucking the life out of this country with their heavily-subsidised lifestyles.

You may want to rethink this.. for example:

• I paid about €10,000 to install a waste system, connect to water supply and I pay for my water usage. City dwellers don't have such expenses and benefit from municipal tax funded systems.
• I don't benefit from public transport, city dwellers do.

I don't begrudge you such benefits paid from my taxes. Enjoy, I hope it makes everyones lives better.

The Bishop Basher

This shouldn’t be an urban versus rural issue and we shouldn’t let it become one.

Our property taxes are already being misappropriated to prop up the Irish Water fiasco. So it’s a myth that they’re for local infrastructure unless your due a reservoir upgrade.

USC is the fairest tax we have. Extend it to everyone and drop the punitive rates for those on middle to higher earnings..

But I agree, we’ll end up seeing the lads on the dole get yet another tenner while we get thrown a few scraps and while being simultaneously robbed out of another pocket..

johnnyskeleton

Wanderer78 wrote: »

If you think are public debt is high, you should look at our private debts

Yes it is but, bank guarantee aside, private debt is not the government's business.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Balancing the budget isn’t really that important for states. What matters is if the state can continue to grow economically and continue to pay back the debts

It's extremely important because government finances should be healthy and deficit spending has the potential to increase inflation and overheat the economy. Saying that balancing the budget isn't important for states is just a way to justify profligate spending.

The idea that we can keep borrowing to fund exponential growth which in turn will then be used to repay the debts is the thinking that got us into the world financial crash in 2008. So the question is have we learned from our mistakes or are we determined to repeat them, on the basis that this time is different?

Idbatterim

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'd be in favour of income tax increases and use of the current period of a strong economy (and historically low interest rates) to invest heavily in infrastructure, really get the ball rolling on the Ireland 2035 stuff.

really? You mustn’t be paying the marginal rate. Income tax increases did even more to be pissed up a wall here? No thanks!

LuckyLloyd

Idbatterim wrote: »

really? You mustn’t be paying the marginal rate. Income tax increases did even more to be pissed up a wall here? No thanks!

I definitely am. I just happen to be more than satisfied to pay more for superior social provision. I'm also more than satisfied to have a non regressive taxation system and leave those earning way below the average industrial wage outside of the taxation net.

Idbatterim

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I definitely am. I just happen to be more than satisfied to pay more for superior social provision. I'm also more than satisfied to have a non regressive taxation system and leave those earning way below the average industrial wage outside of the taxation net.

Well I’m not happy to be receiving no additional benefits while the protesting and welfare careerists , are given even more for nothing. There is over twenty billion sent a year in welfare. They can start by not hiking those payments anymore , if people want better “social provision”

cavemeister

I'm in the "Squeezed middle" and my God, I don't know how much more I can pay in tax and levies.

I am expecting one day to leave the house to go to work only to find a tax man in my garden. "Going to work today?? You need to pay the going to work tax"

LuckyLloyd

Idbatterim wrote: »

Well I’m not happy to be receiving no additional benefits while the protesting and welfare careerists , are given even more for nothing. There is over twenty billion sent a year in welfare. They can start by not hiking those payments anymore , if people want better “social provision”

I don't buy into the divide and conquer narrative, or nonsense about the 'squeezed middle'. I personally judge a society by how it treats its most vulnerable, and it seems fair to me that - as part of an upturn in economic fortunes - we A) invest heavily in infrastructure to future proof our economy invest in social provision to the poor

Between 2010 and 2018 my salary has increased in excess of 100%. There is excellent opportunity across the Irish economy currently and plenty of money to be made. In that context I find the moaning over a few extra quid on the dole or the wild hyperbole on dole cheats pathetic. That's the real 'professional moaners' grouping right there.

lawred2

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I don't buy into the divide and conquer narrative, or nonsense about the 'squeezed middle'. I personally judge a society by how it treats its most vulnerable, and it seems fair to me that - as part of an upturn in economic fortunes - we A) invest heavily in infrastructure to future proof our economy invest in social provision to the poor

Between 2010 and 2018 my salary has increased in excess of 100%. There is excellent opportunity across the Irish economy currently and plenty of money to be made. In that context I find the moaning over a few extra quid on the dole or the wild hyperbole on dole cheats pathetic. That's the real 'professional moaners' grouping right there.

In that context indeed...

Do you think 100% salary increases are reflective of the broader economy over the last 8 years?

Red_Wake

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Idbatterim wrote: »

Well I’m not happy to be receiving no additional benefits while the protesting and welfare careerists , are given even more for nothing. There is over twenty billion sent a year in welfare. They can start by not hiking those payments anymore , if people want better “social provision”

I don't buy into the divide and conquer narrative, or nonsense about the 'squeezed middle'. I personally judge a society by how it treats its most vulnerable, and it seems fair to me that - as part of an upturn in economic fortunes - we A) invest heavily in infrastructure to future proof our economy invest in social provision to the poor

Between 2010 and 2018 my salary has increased in excess of 100%. There is excellent opportunity across the Irish economy currently and plenty of money to be made. In that context I find the moaning over a few extra quid on the dole or the wild hyperbole on dole cheats pathetic. That's the real 'professional moaners' grouping right there.

Now there's an industry I'd like to get into.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I don't buy into the divide and conquer narrative, or nonsense about the 'squeezed middle'. I personally judge a society by how it treats its most vulnerable, and it seems fair to me that - as part of an upturn in economic fortunes - we A) invest heavily in infrastructure to future proof our economy invest in social provision to the poor

Between 2010 and 2018 my salary has increased in excess of 100%. There is excellent opportunity across the Irish economy currently and plenty of money to be made. In that context I find the moaning over a few extra quid on the dole or the wild hyperbole on dole cheats pathetic. That's the real 'professional moaners' grouping right there.

Congratulations on the massive salary jump but as your user name implies you are extremely lucky. Maybe you work in IT or some other high demand industry that can command such increases, but the reality for most is that the yearly wage growth is at about 2 %. These people are not in high demand industries, and hiking taxes on them will put even further strain on their finances.

Franz Von Peppercorn

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I don't buy into the divide and conquer narrative, or nonsense about the 'squeezed middle'. I personally judge a society by how it treats its most vulnerable, and it seems fair to me that - as part of an upturn in economic fortunes - we A) invest heavily in infrastructure to future proof our economy invest in social provision to the poor

Between 2010 and 2018 my salary has increased in excess of 100%. There is excellent opportunity across the Irish economy currently and plenty of money to be made. In that context I find the moaning over a few extra quid on the dole or the wild hyperbole on dole cheats pathetic. That's the real 'professional moaners' grouping right there.

It may not affect you but the squeezed middle definitely exists. The median earner isn’t rich, or even middle class. Working class mostly.

It’s on these groups that the extremely high marginal taxes come into play, and rents are increasing (the median worker can’t afford to buy), and understandably they are annoyed that working 40 hours a week hardly leaves them better off than not working.

And many are worse off since 2010. I’d be worse off if I was still renting.

LuckyLloyd

lawred2 wrote: »

In that context indeed...

Do you think 100% salary increases are reflective of the broader economy over the last 8 years?

Certainly not, but we are an economy that has seen unemployed numbers drop dramatically along with a strong increase in economic activity. I don't buy the poor mouth from the "squeezed middle". Those in employment with an ability to negotiate have excellent opportunity. 2008 - 2013 was shocking, but it is in the past.

I also understand that in order to have better social provision we need to pay for it. I have long been an advocate for increased taxation for increased services. I have chosen to be positive about the Ireland 2035 plan. It requires infrastructure spending and investment. I, for one, am happy to see taxes increase or be maintained at their current levels to support that.

I also agree with idbatterhim about voting for Renua. Most on this thread should be doing exactly that, as they are the only political party running on a platform of increased regressive / flat taxation and a full catchment taxation net. Continuing to vote for parties that have no inclination or interest in giving you what you want while moaning about it...some gall to be talking down your nose at 'professional protesters' in that context.

Franz Von Peppercorn

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Certainly not, but we are an economy that has seen unemployed numbers drop dramatically along with a strong increase in economic activity. I don't buy the poor mouth from the "squeezed middle". Those in employment with an ability to negotiate have excellent opportunity. 2008 - 2013 was shocking, but it is in the past.

I also understand that in order to have better social provision we need to pay for it. I have long been an advocate for increased taxation for increased services. I have chosen to be positive about the Ireland 2035 plan. It requires infrastructure spending and investment. I, for one, am happy to see taxes increase or be maintained at their current levels to support that.

I also agree with idbatterhim about voting for Renua. Most on this thread should be doing exactly that, as they are the only political party running on a platform of increased regressive / flat taxation and a full catchment taxation net. Continuing to vote for parties that have no inclination or interest in giving you what you want while moaning about it...some gall to be talking down your nose at 'professional protesters' in that context.

The actual statistics on this are that salaries at the median have increased by a few percent since 2010. It actually fell until 2012 if I recall.

A good budget for the squeezed middle would be to create three income tax bands and reduce the income tax in the median to median + 30% say.

I don’t see that happening.

LuckyLloyd

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It may not affect you but the squeezed middle definitely exists. The median earner isn’t rich, or even middle class. Working class mostly.

It’s on these groups that the extremely high marginal taxes come into play, and rents are increasing (the median worker can’t afford to buy), and understandably they are annoyed that working 40 hours a week hardly leaves them better off than not working.

And many are worse off since 2010. I’d be worse off if I was still renting.

Then go on the dole?! Except, as you very well know, the dole is certainly not a more lucrative outcome than any job that gets you towards the marginal tax rate. And it is certainly not in our interest as a society to close the gap between low paid jobs and the dole through widening of the tax brackets to include them.

Same old ****e every year on here about tax, yet no - one seemingly voting for a party that offers a taxation policy akin with what this forum says it wants. Like a parallel universe to the real world.

jimmycrackcorm

Swanner wrote:

Our property taxes are already being misappropriated to prop up the Irish Water fiasco. So it’s a myth that they’re for local infrastructure unless your due a reservoir upgrade.

True. That must explain why property taxes aren't diverted into a similar national entity providing a necessary consumable resource, the ESB.

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I definitely am. I just happen to be more than satisfied to pay more for superior social provision. I'm also more than satisfied to have a non regressive taxation system and leave those earning way below the average industrial wage outside of the taxation net.

You can pay whatever extra you want but you won't get Superior social protection, instead you'll get better paid public staff.

Franz Von Peppercorn

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Then go on the dole?! Except, as you very well know, the dole is certainly not a more lucrative outcome than any job that gets you towards the marginal tax rate. And it is certainly not in our interest as a society to close the gap between low paid jobs and the dole through widening of the tax brackets to include them.

It depends. It’s not just the dole bit the cost of housing and medical cards (not all people on the median wage get health care through their company). The cost of essential transport etc.

Same old ****e every year on here about tax, yet no - one seemingly voting for a party that offers a taxation policy akin with what this forum says it wants. Like a parallel universe to the real world.

Try not to assume your own straw man arguments. I’m not a libertarian. I believe in progressive taxation. I also believe in the squeezed middle

James Brown

I can't believe people still buy into the spin that whingers on welfare are the cause of all the nationals ills, (and with pretty much close to full employment). Keep voting for the same parties and expect change, while any blame goes on the minor league also rans or odd indie.
We should demand value for money. Finding new and interesting ways to squeeze more money to be spent throwing it after bad is only maintaining an ever worsening situation.