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Alot of tax increase talk...

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Personally, I'd be happy with tax increases if they froze spending at the level that it is at and then used the money from the extra taxes to:

    A. Balance our budget so that we aren't continually using deficit spending;
    B. Start to reduce our worringly high level of national debt; and/or
    C. Used the money to pay for infrastructural problems.

    I suppose it's a question of the overton window i.e. the perceived parameters of what is politically acceptable. The debate at the moment is between more spending or less tax to get to a 3% deficit, when in reality it should be less spending, more tax to try to fix the sorry state of the Irish exchequer.

    However, there are no votes in doing what is right for the country, only in what puts more money in people's pockets.

    Balancing the budget isn’t really that important for states. What matters is if the state can continue to grow economically and continue to pay back the debts


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,333 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    The only hope I can see for reading the burden on the taxpayer is if FG can make any traction on the housing and health issues. These are dominating political demands and doom any attempts to reduce the penalising of hard work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 712 ✭✭✭GG66


    I read in the Irish Examiner today that they're increasing property tax in 2020, thus punishing us urban-dwellers who are subsidising our 40% rural population seeing our homes are more valuable. They should be cutting off subsidies to rural dwellers, they're the ones sucking the life out of this country with their heavily-subsidised lifestyles.

    You may want to rethink this.. for example:
    • I paid about €10,000 to install a waste system, connect to water supply and I pay for my water usage. City dwellers don't have such expenses and benefit from municipal tax funded systems.
    • I don't benefit from public transport, city dwellers do.

    I don't begrudge you such benefits paid from my taxes. Enjoy, I hope it makes everyones lives better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    This shouldn’t be an urban versus rural issue and we shouldn’t let it become one.

    Our property taxes are already being misappropriated to prop up the Irish Water fiasco. So it’s a myth that they’re for local infrastructure unless your due a reservoir upgrade.

    USC is the fairest tax we have. Extend it to everyone and drop the punitive rates for those on middle to higher earnings..

    But I agree, we’ll end up seeing the lads on the dole get yet another tenner while we get thrown a few scraps and while being simultaneously robbed out of another pocket..


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,493 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    If you think are public debt is high, you should look at our private debts

    Yes it is but, bank guarantee aside, private debt is not the government's business.
    Balancing the budget isn’t really that important for states. What matters is if the state can continue to grow economically and continue to pay back the debts

    It's extremely important because government finances should be healthy and deficit spending has the potential to increase inflation and overheat the economy. Saying that balancing the budget isn't important for states is just a way to justify profligate spending.

    The idea that we can keep borrowing to fund exponential growth which in turn will then be used to repay the debts is the thinking that got us into the world financial crash in 2008. So the question is have we learned from our mistakes or are we determined to repeat them, on the basis that this time is different?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,851 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    I'd be in favour of income tax increases and use of the current period of a strong economy (and historically low interest rates) to invest heavily in infrastructure, really get the ball rolling on the Ireland 2035 stuff.
    really? You mustn’t be paying the marginal rate. Income tax increases did even more to be pissed up a wall here? No thanks!


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,257 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    really? You mustn’t be paying the marginal rate. Income tax increases did even more to be pissed up a wall here? No thanks!

    I definitely am. I just happen to be more than satisfied to pay more for superior social provision. I'm also more than satisfied to have a non regressive taxation system and leave those earning way below the average industrial wage outside of the taxation net.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,851 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    I definitely am. I just happen to be more than satisfied to pay more for superior social provision. I'm also more than satisfied to have a non regressive taxation system and leave those earning way below the average industrial wage outside of the taxation net.
    Well I’m not happy to be receiving no additional benefits while the protesting and welfare careerists , are given even more for nothing. There is over twenty billion sent a year in welfare. They can start by not hiking those payments anymore , if people want better “social provision”


  • Registered Users Posts: 593 ✭✭✭cavemeister


    I'm in the "Squeezed middle" and my God, I don't know how much more I can pay in tax and levies.

    I am expecting one day to leave the house to go to work only to find a tax man in my garden. "Going to work today?? You need to pay the going to work tax"


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,257 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Well I’m not happy to be receiving no additional benefits while the protesting and welfare careerists , are given even more for nothing. There is over twenty billion sent a year in welfare. They can start by not hiking those payments anymore , if people want better “social provision”

    I don't buy into the divide and conquer narrative, or nonsense about the 'squeezed middle'. I personally judge a society by how it treats its most vulnerable, and it seems fair to me that - as part of an upturn in economic fortunes - we A) invest heavily in infrastructure to future proof our economy B) invest in social provision to the poor

    Between 2010 and 2018 my salary has increased in excess of 100%. There is excellent opportunity across the Irish economy currently and plenty of money to be made. In that context I find the moaning over a few extra quid on the dole or the wild hyperbole on dole cheats pathetic. That's the real 'professional moaners' grouping right there.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,314 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    I don't buy into the divide and conquer narrative, or nonsense about the 'squeezed middle'. I personally judge a society by how it treats its most vulnerable, and it seems fair to me that - as part of an upturn in economic fortunes - we A) invest heavily in infrastructure to future proof our economy B) invest in social provision to the poor

    Between 2010 and 2018 my salary has increased in excess of 100%. There is excellent opportunity across the Irish economy currently and plenty of money to be made. In that context I find the moaning over a few extra quid on the dole or the wild hyperbole on dole cheats pathetic. That's the real 'professional moaners' grouping right there.

    In that context indeed...

    Do you think 100% salary increases are reflective of the broader economy over the last 8 years?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Red_Wake


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Well I’m not happy to be receiving no additional benefits while the protesting and welfare careerists , are given even more for nothing. There is over twenty billion sent a year in welfare. They can start by not hiking those payments anymore , if people want better “social provision”

    I don't buy into the divide and conquer narrative, or nonsense about the 'squeezed middle'. I personally judge a society by how it treats its most vulnerable, and it seems fair to me that - as part of an upturn in economic fortunes - we A) invest heavily in infrastructure to future proof our economy B) invest in social provision to the poor

    Between 2010 and 2018 my salary has increased in excess of 100%. There is excellent opportunity across the Irish economy currently and plenty of money to be made. In that context I find the moaning over a few extra quid on the dole or the wild hyperbole on dole cheats pathetic. That's the real 'professional moaners' grouping right there.
    Now there's an industry I'd like to get into.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭zl1whqvjs75cdy


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    I don't buy into the divide and conquer narrative, or nonsense about the 'squeezed middle'. I personally judge a society by how it treats its most vulnerable, and it seems fair to me that - as part of an upturn in economic fortunes - we A) invest heavily in infrastructure to future proof our economy B) invest in social provision to the poor

    Between 2010 and 2018 my salary has increased in excess of 100%. There is excellent opportunity across the Irish economy currently and plenty of money to be made. In that context I find the moaning over a few extra quid on the dole or the wild hyperbole on dole cheats pathetic. That's the real 'professional moaners' grouping right there.

    Congratulations on the massive salary jump but as your user name implies you are extremely lucky. Maybe you work in IT or some other high demand industry that can command such increases, but the reality for most is that the yearly wage growth is at about 2 %. These people are not in high demand industries, and hiking taxes on them will put even further strain on their finances.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    I don't buy into the divide and conquer narrative, or nonsense about the 'squeezed middle'. I personally judge a society by how it treats its most vulnerable, and it seems fair to me that - as part of an upturn in economic fortunes - we A) invest heavily in infrastructure to future proof our economy B) invest in social provision to the poor

    Between 2010 and 2018 my salary has increased in excess of 100%. There is excellent opportunity across the Irish economy currently and plenty of money to be made. In that context I find the moaning over a few extra quid on the dole or the wild hyperbole on dole cheats pathetic. That's the real 'professional moaners' grouping right there.

    It may not affect you but the squeezed middle definitely exists. The median earner isn’t rich, or even middle class. Working class mostly.

    It’s on these groups that the extremely high marginal taxes come into play, and rents are increasing (the median worker can’t afford to buy), and understandably they are annoyed that working 40 hours a week hardly leaves them better off than not working.

    And many are worse off since 2010. I’d be worse off if I was still renting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,257 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    lawred2 wrote: »
    In that context indeed...

    Do you think 100% salary increases are reflective of the broader economy over the last 8 years?

    Certainly not, but we are an economy that has seen unemployed numbers drop dramatically along with a strong increase in economic activity. I don't buy the poor mouth from the "squeezed middle". Those in employment with an ability to negotiate have excellent opportunity. 2008 - 2013 was shocking, but it is in the past.

    I also understand that in order to have better social provision we need to pay for it. I have long been an advocate for increased taxation for increased services. I have chosen to be positive about the Ireland 2035 plan. It requires infrastructure spending and investment. I, for one, am happy to see taxes increase or be maintained at their current levels to support that.

    I also agree with idbatterhim about voting for Renua. Most on this thread should be doing exactly that, as they are the only political party running on a platform of increased regressive / flat taxation and a full catchment taxation net. Continuing to vote for parties that have no inclination or interest in giving you what you want while moaning about it...some gall to be talking down your nose at 'professional protesters' in that context.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Certainly not, but we are an economy that has seen unemployed numbers drop dramatically along with a strong increase in economic activity. I don't buy the poor mouth from the "squeezed middle". Those in employment with an ability to negotiate have excellent opportunity. 2008 - 2013 was shocking, but it is in the past.

    I also understand that in order to have better social provision we need to pay for it. I have long been an advocate for increased taxation for increased services. I have chosen to be positive about the Ireland 2035 plan. It requires infrastructure spending and investment. I, for one, am happy to see taxes increase or be maintained at their current levels to support that.

    I also agree with idbatterhim about voting for Renua. Most on this thread should be doing exactly that, as they are the only political party running on a platform of increased regressive / flat taxation and a full catchment taxation net. Continuing to vote for parties that have no inclination or interest in giving you what you want while moaning about it...some gall to be talking down your nose at 'professional protesters' in that context.

    The actual statistics on this are that salaries at the median have increased by a few percent since 2010. It actually fell until 2012 if I recall.

    A good budget for the squeezed middle would be to create three income tax bands and reduce the income tax in the median to median + 30% say.

    I don’t see that happening.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,257 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    It may not affect you but the squeezed middle definitely exists. The median earner isn’t rich, or even middle class. Working class mostly.

    It’s on these groups that the extremely high marginal taxes come into play, and rents are increasing (the median worker can’t afford to buy), and understandably they are annoyed that working 40 hours a week hardly leaves them better off than not working.

    And many are worse off since 2010. I’d be worse off if I was still renting.

    Then go on the dole?! Except, as you very well know, the dole is certainly not a more lucrative outcome than any job that gets you towards the marginal tax rate. And it is certainly not in our interest as a society to close the gap between low paid jobs and the dole through widening of the tax brackets to include them.

    Same old ****e every year on here about tax, yet no - one seemingly voting for a party that offers a taxation policy akin with what this forum says it wants. Like a parallel universe to the real world.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,333 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Swanner wrote:
    Our property taxes are already being misappropriated to prop up the Irish Water fiasco. So it’s a myth that they’re for local infrastructure unless your due a reservoir upgrade.

    True. That must explain why property taxes aren't diverted into a similar national entity providing a necessary consumable resource, the ESB.
    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    I definitely am. I just happen to be more than satisfied to pay more for superior social provision. I'm also more than satisfied to have a non regressive taxation system and leave those earning way below the average industrial wage outside of the taxation net.

    You can pay whatever extra you want but you won't get Superior social protection, instead you'll get better paid public staff.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Then go on the dole?! Except, as you very well know, the dole is certainly not a more lucrative outcome than any job that gets you towards the marginal tax rate. And it is certainly not in our interest as a society to close the gap between low paid jobs and the dole through widening of the tax brackets to include them.

    It depends. It’s not just the dole bit the cost of housing and medical cards (not all people on the median wage get health care through their company). The cost of essential transport etc.
    Same old ****e every year on here about tax, yet no - one seemingly voting for a party that offers a taxation policy akin with what this forum says it wants. Like a parallel universe to the real world.

    Try not to assume your own straw man arguments. I’m not a libertarian. I believe in progressive taxation. I also believe in the squeezed middle


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    I can't believe people still buy into the spin that whingers on welfare are the cause of all the nationals ills, (and with pretty much close to full employment). Keep voting for the same parties and expect change, while any blame goes on the minor league also rans or odd indie.
    We should demand value for money. Finding new and interesting ways to squeeze more money to be spent throwing it after bad is only maintaining an ever worsening situation.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    I definitely am. I just happen to be more than satisfied to pay more for superior social provision.

    What is that superior social provision ?

    I pay the highest band across the board. I’m laying out well over 50% of everything I earn in tax when you include all the stealth taxes..

    I get absolutely nothing in return..

    Anything else that I need, I pay for separately..

    I see people around me who desperately need help and they get very little if anything at all.

    We can’t even take care of our sick children properly..

    Just what are these “superior social provisions” ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    lawred2 wrote: »
    In that context indeed...

    Do you think 100% salary increases are reflective of the broader economy over the last 8 years?

    Here are the actual numbers for that period and wage growth has been more or less stagnant, with some modest improvement over the last couple of years as the recovery has taken hold.

    So what we have here is a poster who is comparatively doing spectacularly well and saying that people who are living in the actual economy (the one with very modest wage growth) are moaning.

    37lIfNj.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,257 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    You can pay whatever extra you want but you won't get Superior social protection, instead you'll get better paid public staff.

    Better paid public staff will alleviate some of the "squeezed middle" no? Or is the squeezed middle a private sector condition only, adding more layers to divide and conquer?

    In any case, I'm interested in superior infrastructure, more social housing, more services. Those things cost money.
    It depends. It’s not just the dole bit the cost of housing and medical cards (not all people on the median wage get health care through their company). The cost of essential transport etc.

    I obviously understand it's not a pure comparison between dole and wages; it's dole + free public services versus wages + tax reliefs. That said, this one doesn't really "depend" much at all. Work that brings you towards marginal rate of tax superior to dole.
    Try not to assume your own straw man arguments. I’m not a libertarian. I believe in progressive taxation. I also believe in the squeezed middle

    Well, you are not the only poster in this thread. A few posts in this thread certainly smack of libertarian rhetoric.

    Out of interest: what party comes closest to supporting / representing your views?
    Swanner wrote: »
    What is that superior social provision ?

    I pay the highest band across the board. I’m laying out well over 50% of everything I earn in tax when you include all the stealth taxes..

    I get absolutely nothing in return..

    Which indicates you're doing well, which is good for you sir.

    Everything on the Ireland 2035 menu, anything that would bolster our economy into the future. Those are things you get in return for your tax even if you are not in direct receipt of social services.
    Swanner wrote: »
    Anything else that I need, I pay for separately..

    I see people around me who desperately need help and they get very little if anything at all.

    We can’t even take care of our sick children properly..

    Just what are these “superior social provisions” ?

    Tax policy and the use of tax are separate discussions. We more than adequately fund public health care in this state yet the end quality of service is shocking in many respects. That's an issue with politics. We need change, we need a Government willing to roll up the sleeves and take on Unions on points of work practice, tools, etc. However, the answer certainly isn't to fund it less.
    Phoebas wrote: »
    Here are the actual numbers for that period and wage growth has been more or less stagnant, with some modest improvement over the last couple of years as the recovery has taken hold.

    So what we have here is a poster who is comparatively doing spectacularly well and saying that people who are living in the actual economy (the one with very modest wage growth) are moaning.

    37lIfNj.png

    Where did you pull that data from? Wages are stagnant in the Public Sector, they are stagnant for low paid work. They are certainly not stagnant for certain sectors and professions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Better paid public staff will alleviate some of the "squeezed middle" no? Or is the squeezed middle a private sector condition only, adding more layers to divide and conquer?

    In any case, I'm interested in superior infrastructure, more social housing, more services. Those things cost money.



    I obviously understand it's not a pure comparison between dole and wages; it's dole + free public services versus wages + tax reliefs. That said, this one doesn't really "depend" much at all. Work that brings you towards marginal rate of tax superior to dole.



    Well, you are not the only poster in this thread. A few posts in this thread certainly smack of libertarian rhetoric.

    Out of interest: what party comes closest to supporting / representing your views?



    Which indicates you're doing well, which is good for you sir.

    Everything on the Ireland 2035 menu, anything that would bolster our economy into the future. Those are things you get in return for your tax even if you are not in direct receipt of social services.



    Tax policy and the use of tax are separate discussions. We more than adequately fund public health care in this state yet the end quality of service is shocking in many respects. That's an issue with politics. We need change, we need a Government willing to roll up the sleeves and take on Unions on points of work practice, tools, etc. However, the answer certainly isn't to fund it less.



    Where did you pull that data from? Wages are stagnant in the Public Sector, they are stagnant for low paid work. They are certainly not stagnant for certain sectors and professions.

    Who said they were. That’s median income as far as I know. Or average.

    All we are getting from you is a variation of “I’m all right Jack, so everybody else is”

    You are the one denying the squeezed middle exists. Then you go off tangent when questioned saying that people should pay more taxes. You should pay more taxes. The squeezed middle shouldn’t.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,415 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Swanner wrote: »
    What is that superior social provision ?

    I pay the highest band across the board. I’m laying out well over 50% of everything I earn in tax when you include all the stealth taxes..

    I get absolutely nothing in return..

    Anything else that I need, I pay for separately..

    I see people around me who desperately need help and they get very little if anything at all.

    We can’t even take care of our sick children properly..

    Just what are these “superior social provisions” ?


    http://health.gov.ie/publications-research/statistics/

    Number of people with a medical card: 1,626,702
    Number of people with a GP visit card: 484,674

    Over 2.1 million people in Ireland have access to free GP care out of a total population of 4.8 million.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Over 2.1 million people in Ireland have access to free GP care out of a total population of 4.8 million.

    I know..

    And it's all paid for by a very small minority of the population who also have to find the few bob to pay for their own healthcare and insurance while they're at it.

    I've no problem paying for those who need it.

    Half the population don't need it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,851 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Better paid public staff will alleviate some of the "squeezed middle" no? Or is the squeezed middle a private sector condition only, adding more layers to divide and conquer?
    cut the marginal rate, that will help all workers on the marginal rate. FG claim to be pro business and enterprise, I would beg to differ on the insane marginal rate here and Varadkar that clown, has repeatedly highlighted the issues around the marginal rate here...


    LuckyLloyd you mentioned your salary increase, interesting article on that and the lack of relief for the squeezed middle, below...
    http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/there-will-be-no-relief-for-the-squeezed-middle/

    Its not just the welfare handed out as cash, the medical card, the housing, its outrageous! What stress do those people have, then other people going out working, having a lower living standard, stressed out of their minds! Rent hikes, no security etc!


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,851 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Swanner wrote: »
    I know..

    And it's all paid for by a very small minority of the population who also have to find the few bob to pay for their own healthcare and insurance while they're at it.

    I've no problem paying for those who need it.

    Half the population don't need it.

    so a huge amount of people get it free and other low paid workers struggling, avoide going to a GP or fork out E60 a pop!

    There should be a charge per visit for everyone, of E20 or so! They can afford it for the smart phone and sky package!
    I also agree with idbatterim about voting for Renua. Most on this thread should be doing exactly that, as they are the only political party running on a platform of increased regressive / flat taxation and a full catchment taxation net. Continuing to vote for parties that have no inclination or interest in giving you what you want while moaning about it...some gall to be talking down your nose at 'professional protesters' in that context.
    they are not running with the flat tax proposal any longer!

    Also this term "regressive" what do you want? maybe everyone under 50k a year should be exempt from paying tax?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,851 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim




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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,415 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Idbatterim wrote: »

    What point are you trying to make with this link?

    Is it something you agree with? Or is it something you disagree with?

    The LPT, as originally designed, operates in accordance with this principle. If Phibsboro, or anywhere else, sees prices rise faster than the rest of the city, then the LPT bill will also rise faster.

    Another question relates to another post you made about Renua's tax proposals. You said they no longer favour a flat tax. Is there any clarity on what they do favour?


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