Alot of tax increase talk...

veryangryman · 16-04-2018 7:38pm #1

Heard word of potential increases in income tax and property tax in the budget.
Whatever about the merits of this, Isn't this political suicide for a minority government? Call me a simpleton but I consider my tax as money wasted by others.
I vote for whoever lets me waste this money myself. The 50% marginal tax rate is still woefully high for the average worker.I do realise that these things are mainly done by civil servants who can't be voted out. Still this brings me right back spooning with MM.

[Deleted User] · 16-04-2018 7:41pm

With a €20bn surplus in tax intake, it’ll probably be a giveaway budget. Any increases in LPT or other taxes will be kicked down the road.

road_high · 16-04-2018 7:47pm

veryangryman wrote: »

Heard word of potential increases in income tax and property tax in the budget.
Whatever about the merits of this, Isn't this political suicide for a minority government? Call me a simpleton but I consider my tax as money wasted by others.
I vote for whoever lets me waste this money myself. The 50% marginal tax rate is still woefully high for the average worker.I do realise that these things are mainly done by civil servants who can't be voted out. Still this brings me right back spooning with MM.

They were making big play of rewarding work etc (but haven't really done so) at all. Seems to be huge pressure for more public spending from all the usual moaners- they shout loudest as they have the time and agenda to do so. Working people don't really register.
So increased taxes wouldn't surprise one iota- though it'll be more along the lines of increased taxes on diesel, road tax, increased property taxes and whatever else stealth wise they can cook up.

OneEightSeven · 16-04-2018 9:25pm

I read in the Irish Examiner today that they're increasing property tax in 2020, thus punishing us urban-dwellers who are subsidising our 40% rural population seeing our homes are more valuable. They should be cutting off subsidies to rural dwellers, they're the ones sucking the life out of this country with their heavily-subsidised lifestyles.

[Deleted User] · 16-04-2018 9:31pm

OneEightSeven wrote: »

I read in the Irish Examiner today that they're increasing property tax in 2020, thus punishing us urban-dwellers who are subsidising our 40% rural population seeing our homes are more valuable. They should be cutting off subsidies to rural dwellers, they're the ones sucking the life out of this country with their heavily-subsidised lifestyles.

Poppycock. Rural dwellers have expenses that city/town dwellers don’t.

What I’d like to see is EVERYONE paying LPT, not just home owners. Renters have the same benefit.

McMurphy · 16-04-2018 10:15pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Poppycock. Rural dwellers have expenses that city/town dwellers don’t.

What I’d like to see is EVERYONE paying LPT, not just home owners. Renters have the same benefit.

Well if property tax is a "tax on an asset", ie the family home, and the renter doesn't own the house, how could he be expected to pay the tax on his landlords asset?

You might be arguing for something like domestic rates, but the govt don't seem to be in any hurry to consider that option.

Idbatterim · 16-04-2018 10:58pm

The rates won’t change, but as property values are increasing, the amount paid in will increase. Increasing income tax now? LOL. Short answer is no to that!

The increased pot from property taxes should go to reducing the scandalous marginal rate ...

FreudianSlippers · 17-04-2018 10:07am

Deleted User wrote: »

With a €20bn surplus in tax intake, it’ll probably be a giveaway budget. Any increases in LPT or other taxes will be kicked down the road.

I'm not so sure - I think it'll be a copypasta of the last budget; another small amount of USC cuts, slight band amendments but other than that no big changes.

IMHO we should have taken the opportunity in the past few years to totally have a complete re-think of our entire tax system.

FreudianSlippers · 17-04-2018 10:10am

Idbatterim wrote: »

The rates won’t change, but as property values are increasing, the amount paid in will increase. Increasing income tax now? LOL. Short answer is no to that!

The increased pot from property taxes should go to reducing the scandalous marginal rate ...

Like I also wouldn't mind if they fixed the massive potholes around the place in Dublin tbh. I do normally a couple months here then a few in the US and (I understand there was a lot of snow earlier this year) but the roads seem WAY worse than they were a few months ago.

Idbatterim · 17-04-2018 10:12am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm not so sure - I think it'll be a copypasta of the last budget; another small amount of USC cuts, slight band amendments but other than that no big changes.

IMHO we should have taken the opportunity in the past few years to totally have a complete re-think of our entire tax system.

Not a chance. It would have involved getting hundreds of thousands who pay viRitually nothing into the system , to start contributing a fair share!

lawred2 · 17-04-2018 10:13am

veryangryman wrote: »

Heard word of potential increases in income tax and property tax in the budget.
Whatever about the merits of this, Isn't this political suicide for a minority government? Call me a simpleton but I consider my tax as money wasted by others.
I vote for whoever lets me waste this money myself. The 50% marginal tax rate is still woefully high for the average worker.I do realise that these things are mainly done by civil servants who can't be voted out. Still this brings me right back spooning with MM.

?

income tax is already well out of line here in Ireland

lawred2 · 17-04-2018 10:14am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm not so sure - I think it'll be a copypasta of the last budget; another small amount of USC cuts, slight band amendments but other than that no big changes.

IMHO we should have taken the opportunity in the past few years to totally have a complete re-think of our entire tax system.

ah now - that's crazy talk. The current system works brilliantly for those that couldn't be arsed.

seamus · 17-04-2018 10:19am

We still have room to rethink our tax system. The main issue is that people on the whole are selfish. Any government which makes sudden changes that are of long-term social and national benefit but may take money out of the individual's pocket, are pretty much guaranteed to be savaged at the ballot box. And then the change gets reversed later on, so why bother your hole doing it?

Piecemeal changes are really the only way to go. Boil the frog; broaden the tax base slowly enough that people don't really notice it happening and so that future governments can't just wipe out your reforms with the stroke of a pen.

The mistake FF made in successive budgets in the 00s was giving money away because it was there. Doing the same again is setting us up for another large crash in the next five years, so the very minimum they should do is leave taxation as it is and pump excess money into social programmes, public sector reform and infrastructure.
Really they should also reform taxation to make it broader and simpler. If there's a surplus, now is the time to talk about abolishing USC, and introduce broader taxes elsewhere.

lawred2 · 17-04-2018 10:24am

seamus wrote: »

We still have room to rethink our tax system. The main issue is that people on the whole are selfish. Any government which makes sudden changes that are of long-term social and national benefit but may take money out of the individual's pocket, are pretty much guaranteed to be savaged at the ballot box. And then the change gets reversed later on, so why bother your hole doing it?

Piecemeal changes are really the only way to go. Boil the frog; broaden the tax base slowly enough that people don't really notice it happening and so that future governments can't just wipe out your reforms with the stroke of a pen.

The mistake FF made in successive budgets in the 00s was giving money away because it was there. Doing the same again is setting us up for another large crash in the next five years, so the very minimum they should do is leave taxation as it is and pump excess money into social programmes, public sector reform and infrastructure.
Really they should also reform taxation to make it broader and simpler. If there's a surplus, now is the time to talk about abolishing USC, and introduce broader taxes elsewhere.

that's not what's happening though... Especially not with income tax anyway.

the one solitary mechanism (USC) through which all were asked to contribute has been undercut repeatedly over the last few years while remaining top heavy..

usual story - the income tax burden is way too top heavy and there seems to be no real attitude to change it - despite all the platitudes to the contrary.

And then factor in penal CGT on rather minuscule gains.

I'm not sure what frog is being boiled really

pump excess money into social programmes, public sector reform

those are sure fire ways to make money disappear very quickly

Idbatterim · 17-04-2018 10:25am

Let them scrap usc. No welfare increases for years. Sure aren’t we nearly at “full employment”? During the boom it was all sent up in smoke. This time round, it should be spent on infrastructure, state housing for low to mid income workers, debt repayment and usc abolition in my opinion. Not that I in way agree with abolishing usc. But from a political perspective, there is no way they could only cut the marginal rate. Which is what I would be doing ...

Idbatterim · 17-04-2018 10:27am

“usual story - the income tax burden is way too top heavy and their seems to be no real attitude to change it - despite all the platitudes to the contrary.”

It’s a total disgrace. But they probably make up a single or low double digit percentage of the electorate. So they are hammered!

lawred2 · 17-04-2018 10:27am

Idbatterim wrote: »

Let them scrap usc. No welfare increases for years. Sure aren’t we nearly at “full employment”? During the boom it was all sent up in smoke. This time round, it should be spent on infrastructure, state housing for low to mid income workers, debt repayment and usc abolition in my opinion. Not that I in way agree with abolishing usc. But from a political perspective, there is no way they could only cut the marginal rate. Which is what I would be doing ...

extend USC to all

and cut the top rate of PAYE is what should happen

USC feeds into the marginal rate

Idbatterim · 17-04-2018 10:28am

lawred2 wrote: »

extend USC to all

and cut the top rate of PAYE is what should happen

USC feeds into the marginal rate

I agree. There is what I would do and then what might actually be politically doable. Like Seamus says... one way I’d be extracting more is from the lpt...

Idbatterim · 17-04-2018 10:29am

Vote for renua if you’re sick of the income tax situation in this country and the income tax!

FreudianSlippers · 17-04-2018 10:32am

Idbatterim wrote: »

Vote for renua if you’re sick of the income tax situation in this country and the income tax!

I can't deal with their social views unfortunately.

lawred2 · 17-04-2018 10:37am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I can't deal with their social views unfortunately.

same

Idbatterim · 17-04-2018 10:42am

Their social views are an irrelevance. They are at odds with nearly every other party. They would never influemce anything here on the social front! They are hardly going to get in as a majority government! The abortion issue could be put to bed permanently, pretty soon!

I find it funny that here we aretalkimgvsnloyt being bent over financially , yet people won’t vote for them out of some moral compass! Well the other voters don’t think like you lads, so don’t be surprised at the abuse, when you don’t vote to represent your own interests at the balllot box!

lawred2 · 17-04-2018 10:47am

Idbatterim wrote: »

Their social views are an irrelevance. They are at odds with nearly every other party. They would never influemce anything here on the social front! They are hardly going to get in as a majority government! The abortion issue could be put to bed permanently, pretty soon!

I find it funny that here we aretalkimgvsnloyt being bent over financially , yet people won’t vote for them out of some moral compass! Well the other voters don’t think like you lads, so don’t be surprised at the abuse, when you don’t vote to represent your own interests at the balllot box!

they have zero momentum, no Dail seats and 2 elected councilors

apparently they will have at best about 15 - 20 or so available candidates by the time the next election comes around

Renua as a brand is toxic

Talk about a dead duck

Idbatterim · 17-04-2018 11:00am

lawred2 wrote: »

they have zero momentum, no Dail seats and 2 elected councilors

apparently they will have at best about 15 - 20 or so available candidates by the time the next election comes around

Renua as a brand is toxic

Talk about a dead duck

They now have two hundred k in funding every year, that they didn’t have before previous election. Fg have now abandoned the taxpayer. They will win seats this time round. The issue for them I see is their social views and the fact they aren’t getting their message out there to the masses or are building a nestegg to do it at election time ... everything most oriole call for on this forum, is their policy!

TheBoyConor · 17-04-2018 11:17am

OneEightSeven wrote: »

I read in the Irish Examiner today that they're increasing property tax in 2020, thus punishing us urban-dwellers who are subsidising our 40% rural population seeing our homes are more valuable. They should be cutting off subsidies to rural dwellers, they're the ones sucking the life out of this country with their heavily-subsidised lifestyles.

Typical Pale Jackeen attitude.

You should come live in an isolated rural area where your nearest neighbour is an elderly bachelor farmer 3 miles away and down a botharín and you'll see how much of a cushy and luxury life we are leading.
It's attitudes like yours, denigrating rural ireland is what is sucking the life out of rural communities.

LuckyLloyd · 17-04-2018 11:42am

I'd be in favour of income tax increases and use of the current period of a strong economy (and historically low interest rates) to invest heavily in infrastructure, really get the ball rolling on the Ireland 2035 stuff.

blanch152 · 17-04-2018 12:01pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Typical Pale Jackeen attitude.

You should come live in an isolated rural area where your nearest neighbour is an elderly bachelor farmer 3 miles away and down a botharín and you'll see how much of a cushy and luxury life we are leading.
It's attitudes like yours, denigrating rural ireland is what is sucking the life out of rural communities.

Not at all, it is the attitude of your neighbours and friends, and their sons and daughters, who are moving to Dublin who are sucking the life out of rural communities. They are voting with their feet.

johnnyskeleton · 17-04-2018 12:07pm

road_high wrote: »

They were making big play of rewarding work etc (but haven't really done so) at all. Seems to be huge pressure for more public spending from all the usual moaners- they shout loudest as they have the time and agenda to do so. Working people don't really register.
So increased taxes wouldn't surprise one iota- though it'll be more along the lines of increased taxes on diesel, road tax, increased property taxes and whatever else stealth wise they can cook up.

Personally, I'd be happy with tax increases if they froze spending at the level that it is at and then used the money from the extra taxes to:

A. Balance our budget so that we aren't continually using deficit spending;
B. Start to reduce our worringly high level of national debt; and/or
C. Used the money to pay for infrastructural problems.

I suppose it's a question of the overton window i.e. the perceived parameters of what is politically acceptable. The debate at the moment is between more spending or less tax to get to a 3% deficit, when in reality it should be less spending, more tax to try to fix the sorry state of the Irish exchequer.

However, there are no votes in doing what is right for the country, only in what puts more money in people's pockets.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 17-04-2018 12:09pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Poppycock. Rural dwellers have expenses that city/town dwellers don’t.

What I’d like to see is EVERYONE paying LPT, not just home owners. Renters have the same benefit.

It’s a property tax not a residence tax.

Wanderer78 · 17-04-2018 12:13pm

johnnyskeleton wrote:

A. Balance our budget so that we aren't continually using deficit spending; B. Start to reduce our worringly high level of national debt; and/or C. Used the money to pay for infrastructural problems.

If you think are public debt is high, you should look at our private debts

Franz Von Peppercorn · 17-04-2018 12:13pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

They now have two hundred k in funding every year, that they didn’t have before previous election. Fg have now abandoned the taxpayer. They will win seats this time round. The issue for them I see is their social views and the fact they aren’t getting their message out there to the masses or are building a nestegg to do it at election time ... everything most oriole call for on this forum, is their policy!

A renua conference could be held in a rural pub snug. Going nowhere.

A full libertarian party (socially and economically) might do better but probably not much better.

Alot of tax increase talk...

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