More Misrepresentation

JackTaylorFan

martingriff wrote: »

I am wondering does it all ways have to be a trans person playing a trans person.

Yes it does.

Maybe in a future, where we have equal opportunities we can discuss the matter again.

martingriff wrote: »

In relation to your last paragraph do you think they be pulling that stuff if it was a trans person. Look at it this way would you rather a movie with a well known actor/actress to play a trans person well and get raving positive reviews for the potrail. As I said yes a trans person would be great but if they are not great at the acting it could hurt the film

I will refer you to the 2018 Oscar Best Foreign Film winner: A Fantastic Woman. Lead role: an unknown transwoman.

martingriff wrote: »

I would agree. can you please name me 1.

Here we have circular reasoning, perpetuated by people who are okay with keeping trans people down.

Hollywood won't hire trans actors -> There are no trans actors in Hollywood -> Hollywood won't hire trans actors

martingriff

LLMMLL wrote: »

There was a trans man actor on law and order svu a few months back. He seemed quite good. I’m sure there are loads who haven’t had the opportunity to attain the fame ScarJo has.

Look I am agreeing with you more trans actors should be given an opportunity but my point is just this why should we restrict it to trans people should the story and if it is a good film also matter.

martingriff

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

When it's a level playing field and trans actors are giving the same opportunity to audition in good faith for cis roles, then we can have that discussion. Until then, nah, your false equivalencies are null and void.

Really you think autistic or disabled people or blind people are in a level playing field.

Max Prophet

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Yes it does.

Maybe in a future, where we have equal opportunities we can discuss the matter again.




I will refer you to the 2018 Oscar Best Foreign Film winner: A Fantastic Woman. Lead role: an unknown transwoman.



Here we have circular reasoning, perpetuated by people who are okay with keeping trans people down.

Hollywood won't hire trans actors -> There are no trans actors in Hollywood -> Hollywood won't hire trans actors

So you’re basically saying trans actors can only take trans roles and vice versa ?

martingriff

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Yes it does.

Maybe in a future, where we have equal opportunities we can discuss the matter again.




I will refer you to the 2018 Oscar Best Foreign Film winner: A Fantastic Woman. Lead role: an unknown transwoman.



Here we have circular reasoning, perpetuated by people who are okay with keeping trans people down.

Hollywood won't hire trans actors -> There are no trans actors in Hollywood -> Hollywood won't hire trans actors

I will agree with you on that point

In relation to your first point 1 of 2 things will happen 1 they will not do movies on trans people and therefore nor employ any so you have your last point or there will be a quota which in turn will make loads of people angry and when they have to have a trans person they get crap roles.

JackTaylorFan

martingriff wrote: »

I will agree with you on that point

In relation to your first point 1 of 2 things will happen 1 they will not do movies on trans people and therefore nor employ any so you have your last point or there will be a quota which in turn will make loads of people angry and when they have to have a trans person they get crap roles.

Like it or not these big studios want to do movies about trans people - it's a hot topic in this era. And if they are going to tell our stories they owe us a duty of care for proper representation - not just use our narratives for exploitation purposes.

So as to your first scenario of 2: I'm absolutely convinced from speaking to other trans people about this subject, that the vast majority of us would prefer no movie was ever made about us again than have a cis actor take a trans role from us. We don't want to see it; we see it as exploitative and disengaging; we see it as not only a slap in the face but also highly damaging as it perpetuates so many fallacies about us. And there is no doubt that if Scarlet Johansson had taken that role many would have viewed it as a lesbian romp rather than what it should be: A trans man


As for scenario 2: if audiences want to see our stories they should also be able to tolerate our presence on screen. It is as simple as that.

JackTaylorFan

Max Prophet wrote: »

So you’re basically saying trans actors can only take trans roles and vice versa ?

Are you stalking me now? Really, the unsolicited PMs were a bit much like...

Anyways.. at the risk or repeating myself, I will reply once and once only to you here..

What I am saying is: until it is an equal playing field, where trans people can walk into an audition for any role, cis or trans, it is entirely inappropriate for a cis actor to steal our narratives away from us. As one trans actress said about auditioning for even trans roles " We can't even get in the room."

This is a problem that has been highlighted by Hollywood, but it is not an isolated problem by any stretch. If I decide, tomorrow, to audition for a cis woman role locally. I will be met with the exact same trans exclusionary attitudes. So, no. we are nowhere near that equal playing field and until then, if ever it happens, it will never be acceptable for cis people to appropriate our stories for their own ends again.

It is also a very importamt point in history for trans rights. And proper representation has never been more important.

sexmag

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

What I am saying is: until it is an equal playing field, where trans people can walk into an audition for any role, cis or trans, it is entirely inappropriate for a cis actor to steal our narratives away from us.

Thing is though men who identify as men can't audition for a role that is a female role.

Are you implying a trans person should be able to audition for and play both male and female roles?

Max Prophet

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Are you stalking me now? Really, the unsolicited PMs were a bit much like...

Anyways.. at the risk or repeating myself, I will reply once and once only to you here..

What I am saying is: until it is an equal playing field, where trans people can walk into an audition for any role, cis or trans, it is entirely inappropriate for a cis actor to steal our narratives away from us. As one trans actress said about auditioning for even trans roles " We can't even get in the room."

This is a problem that has been highlighted by Hollywood, but it is not an isolated problem by any stretch. If I decide, tomorrow, to audition for a cis woman role locally. I will be met with the exact same trans exclusionary attitudes. So, no. we are nowhere near that equal playing field and until then, if ever it happens, it will never be acceptable for cis people to appropriate our stories for their own ends again.

It is also a very importamt point in history for trans rights. And proper representation has never been more important.

So what’s good for the goose is good for the gander so to speak?

JackTaylorFan

sexmag wrote: »

Thing is though men who identify as men can't audition for a role that is a female role.

Are you implying a trans person should be able to audition for and play both male and female roles?

No, I am implying a trans man should be able to audition for all male roles (Cis or trans), and trans women all female roles (cis or trans). When the world is that enlightened, then we can discuss cis roles taking on trans roles again.

Anyways, nice try. But you either just proved you haven't got a clue what you are talking about, or that you are willfully obtuse - or quite possibly both.

Will not reply to you again. Next.

Max Prophet

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

No, I am implying a trans man should be able to audition for all male roles (Cis or trans), and trans women all female roles (cis or trans). When the world is that enlightened, then we can discuss cis roles taking on trans roles again.

Anyways, nice try. But you either just proved you haven't got a clue what you are talking about, or that you are willfully obtuse - or quite possibly both.

Will not reply to you again. Next.

So a cis man can audition for a trans man role and a cis woman can audition for a trans lady role ? If not then its you who is misunderstanding or being obtuse.

JackTaylorFan

I'll just leave this here:

Sealioning:

A subtle form of trolling involving "bad-faith" questions. You disingenuously frame your conversation as a sincere request to be enlightened, placing the burden of educating you entirely on the other party. If your bait is successful, the other party may engage, painstakingly laying out their logic and evidence in the false hope of helping someone learn. In fact you are attempting to harass or waste the time of the other party, and have no intention of truly entertaining their point of view. Instead, you react to each piece of information by misinterpreting it or requesting further clarification, ad nauseum.

martingriff

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Like it or not these big studios want to do movies about trans people - it's a hot topic in this era. And if they are going to tell our stories they owe us a duty of care for proper representation - not just use our narratives for exploitation purposes.

So as to your first scenario of 2: I'm absolutely convinced from speaking to other trans people about this subject, that the vast majority of us would prefer no movie was ever made about us again than have a cis actor take a trans role from us. We don't want to see it; we see it as exploitative and disengaging; we see it as not only a slap in the face but also highly damaging as it perpetuates so many fallacies about us. And there is no doubt that if Scarlet Johansson had taken that role many would have viewed it as a lesbian romp rather than what it should be: A trans man


As for scenario 2: if audiences want to see our stories they should also be able to tolerate our presence on screen. It is as simple as that.

I think people like seeing a trans story 1 been on emerdale at the moment which if I am not mistaken is a trans person. I am ageeing they should make all possible that if it is a trans part it should be and they should actively search. Do you thing if they are looking for a gay lesbian part they should be gay or lesbian.

sexmag

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

No, I am implying a trans man should be able to audition for all male roles (Cis or trans), and trans women all female roles (cis or trans). When the world is that enlightened, then we can discuss cis roles taking on trans roles again.

Anyways, nice try. But you either just proved you haven't got a clue what you are talking about, or that you are willfully obtuse - or quite possibly both.

Will not reply to you again. Next.

I dont want to get personal but your dismissive and arragont attitude is probably why you're still single.

You have a massive chip on your shoulder and think the entire world is against you when they aren't however it suits you perfect to be able to blame everyone else for your unhappiness. In reality you should try to understand people who aren't trans and not the other way around of other people trying to understand trans people

Good luck op

3 day ban for personal attack. Dont post in thread again Sexmag

JackTaylorFan

martingriff wrote: »

I think people like seeing a trans story 1 been on emerdale at the moment which if I am not mistaken is a trans person. I am ageeing they should make all possible that if it is a trans part it should be and they should actively search. Do you thing if they are looking for a gay lesbian part they should be gay or lesbian.

Why don't you ask gay and lesbian people how they feel about Ian McKellan or Jodie Foster playing straight characters?

This argument is a false equivalency one, and I will not engage you further if you continue on this trail, as it is entirely irrelevant.

Max Prophet

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Why don't you ask gay and lesbian people how they feel about Ian McKellan or Jodie Foster playing straight characters?

This argument is a false equivalency one, and I will not engage you further if you continue on this trail, as it is entirely irrelevant.

Well you need to deal with factual equivalence yourself.

please dont make transphobic suggestions that trans people are false again

martingriff

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Why don't you ask gay and lesbian people how they feel about Ian McKellan or Jodie Foster playing straight characters?

This argument is a false equivalency one, and I will not engage you further if you continue on this trail, as it is entirely irrelevant.

As you are not resounding again here is my opinion on the matter I think where possible and they should make all efforts to get a trans person to play a trans person in a movie they should even advertise it as such but if not then if they want to still make the movie and it is a positive message to have people talk about these things I see no problem with getting someone else. That is just my opinion I am sorry if you think I am not giving my full support to trans people because that is the furthest thing I want to do. I will leave this now as as it has gone ways I never intended

I am sorry I don't see it as irrelevant as I would say been gay or lesbian was been looked down on also for a long time there was a lot of homophobic attitudes. Also I said nothing or gay or lesbian people playing straight roles I was asking should a straight person play a gay or lesbian role.

JackTaylorFan

martingriff wrote: »

As you are not resounding again here is my opinion on the matter I think where possible and they should make all efforts to get a trans person to play a trans person in a movie they should even advertise it as such but if not then if they want to still make the movie and it is a positive message to have people talk about these things I see no problem with getting someone else. That is just my opinion I am sorry if you think I am not giving my full support to trans people because that is the furthest thing I want to do. I will leave this now as as it has gone ways I never intended

Contrary to what you think, I am still replying to you (unlike other users here) because I might actually believe you are discussing the matter in good faith. But I will shut-down a discussion that veers off on a lesbian/gay tangent. This is about trans people specifically. And as far as fighting for our rights, trans people's struggle is about 30 years behind gay and lesbian rights.

I have simply stated to you already, that in this current climate most trans people would rather no movie about trans people than one played by a cis character. I will not reiterate the point more than that, other than to say: given the current attitude in society that kind of misrepresentation is harmful to us and how we are viewed in society at large.

On a very personal level: as a trans woman, on the few occasions where I have watched movies where trans characters were actually played appropriately by trans actors the story became instantly more compelling as opposed to the feeling of exclusion I get from watching what Hollywood up to now has spewed out in the name of trans. Trans visibility is important - but maybe it's too much to expect you to understand.

uck51js9zml2yt

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

No, I am implying a trans man should be able to audition for all male roles (Cis or trans), and trans women all female roles (cis or trans).
/QUOTE]

Seems to me that you want it both ways, or just dont know what you want!!

I cant decide which.

JackTaylorFan

Raelyn Round Joint wrote: »

Seems to me that you want it both ways!!

Yep. That's it exactly. An equal playing field for all

sexmag

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

I have simply stated to you already, that in this current climate most trans people would rather no movie about trans people than one played by a cis character.

Well to be fair until another trans person comes on here and confirms that,this is nothing more than your opinion

AndrewJRenko

o1s1n wrote: »

Where does it end? Should Daniel Day Lewis not have played Christy Brown? Dustin Hoffman's rain man? Al Pacino in Scent of a Woman?

If you've an issue with the script, fair enough. That should be addressed at that level. Let actors do their job and act.

'Cripping up' is indeed a very significant issue;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/13/eddie-redmayne-golden-globe-stephen-hawking-disabled-actors-characters

martingriff wrote: »

I remember a number of years a new reboot of Ironside was coming out where the main character is in a wheelchair. There was loads of protests from disability groups. Now I am in a wheelchair and did not give a crap just that it would be good as I liked the original (played by the actor who played Perry Mason(also not in a wheelchair). Never saw it but lasted only 3 episodes.

You may not give a crap, but others might. Your not giving a crap does not invalidate those who do give a crap. This guy is a pretty good writer on the matter.

https://www.dominickevans.com/2017/07/please-stop-comparing-cripping-up-to-blackface/

JackTaylorFan

And I'm just gonna leave this here rather than engage with what I consider trolling at this point

https://mashable.com/2018/07/04/transgender-actors-criticize-scarlett-johansson-trans-man-casting/?europe=true#fJfbFR1P9mqp

martingriff

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Contrary to what you think, I am still replying to you (unlike other users here) because I might actually believe you are discussing the matter in good faith. But I will shut-down a discussion that veers off on a lesbian/gay tangent. This is about trans people specifically. And as far as fighting for our rights, trans people's struggle is about 30 years behind gay and lesbian rights.

I have simply stated to you already, that in this current climate most trans people would rather no movie about trans people than one played by a cis character. I will not reiterate the point more than that, other than to say: given the current attitude in society that kind of misrepresentation is harmful to us and how we are viewed in society at large.

On a very personal level: as a trans woman, on the few occasions where I have watched movies where trans characters were actually played appropriately by trans actors the story became instantly more compelling as opposed to the feeling of exclusion I get from watching what Hollywood up to now has spewed out in the name of trans. Trans visibility is important - but maybe it's too much to expect you to understand.

I fully agree with you and it is not hard to understand. When the time comes around where trans people are more visible and accepted as you say maybe this will not be an issue if a women or man is used and maybe a trans man or trans woman could play a man or woman

JackTaylorFan

martingriff wrote: »

I fully agree with you and it is not hard to understand. When the time comes around where trans people are more visible and accepted as you say maybe this will not be an issue if a women or man is used and maybe a trans man or trans woman could play a man or woman

Exactly my point, when we reach that point in time, when acceptance has reached that enlightened point. Equality will truly mean equality. Sadly, we are nowhere there. And we must fight tooth and nail even for trans roles.

JackTaylorFan

If you are actually genuinely interested in learning about the issue. Watch this video - it sums it up perfectly:

http://screencrush.com/cis-actors-transgender-movies-characters/

sexmag

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

And I'm just gonna leave this here rather than engage with what I consider trolling at this point

There's no trolling, you sound just like trans people's biggest antagonist TRUMP, when people argue with him he shouts fake news to try and deflect.

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

https://mashable.com/2018/07/04/transgender-actors-criticize-scarlett-johansson-trans-man-casting/?europe=true#fJfbFR1P9mqp

A yes another actor is bullied out of a doing a role by the professionally enraged.

This is the thing about actors....their job is too act, scarlet Johansson is paid to pretend to be someone else on film, that's her job, should we have got an actual male hooker to play midnight cowboy, should we have got actual heroin addicts to act in requiem for a dream, should we have got an actual drug Lord to act in scarface?

No because actors are paid to portray roles because they are good at it

martingriff

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

'Cripping up' is indeed a very significant issue;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/13/eddie-redmayne-golden-globe-stephen-hawking-disabled-actors-characters





You may not give a crap, but others might. Your not giving a crap does not invalidate those who do give a crap. This guy is a pretty good writer on the matter.

https://www.dominickevans.com/2017/07/please-stop-comparing-cripping-up-to-blackface/

Your right it was just my opinion and others can have an opinion. Should have not used the word crap. In relation to the article/blog you gave I would disagree with a number of things he said. 1 I would disagree is that Tom Hanks or Daniel Day Lewis should lose there oscars

martingriff

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Exactly my point, when we reach that point in time, when acceptance has reached that enlightened point. Equality will truly mean equality. Sadly, we are nowhere there. And we must fight tooth and nail even for trans roles.

I know I am been pedantic here but there is no such thing as true equality as not everyone can audition for every part going

JackTaylorFan

martingriff wrote: »

I know I am been pedantic here but there is no such thing as true equality as not everyone can audition for every part going

Yes, you are being pedantic. Bye now.